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Kyle: Today we're talking
about Chic's C'est Chic.

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Cliff: Today we're talking
exclusively about the song Voir Fair

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Off the album, say Chic by Chic.

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Kyle: is that not one of the
coolest songs you've ever heard?

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I'd be hard pressed to
think of a swaggy or song.

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I think a number of times.

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We've talked about the green
onions, swag, step hall of fame.

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I'm gonna have to add Swar affair to it.

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And much like the album say Chic, you
just jump right into the groove, start

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feeling good, and it just keeps on going.

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Cliff: One constant thesis throughout
this episode will be if you can

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listen to the song Voir Fair
and not feel or think a thing.

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We are not the same.

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The there that is maybe
the most accessible.

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Don't you want to like music a lot.

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Song I have ever experienced in my
life, ever since we made the calendar a

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couple of years ago and this album was
on it, and then this song was on it.

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I looked forward to it all the time.

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I pull it out to people now and they're
just like, dude, have I just wanna make

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sure, have you heard this song before?

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And you get to go, all the way back
through, wait a minute, who's this?

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When about what?

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What's that now?

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Okay.

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And it's the, and it's that
guitarist and into disco band.

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And it's from when.

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Okay.

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And it's this

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Kyle: and oh by the way, even if this
weren't on that album, there's fully

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half a dozen songs where you could
do that exact same thing with, in

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fact, 13, 12, 13 years ago, that exact
scenario happened to me with Funny

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Bone, the closing track on this record.

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Our buddy Mon was like,
listen to this, Michael J.

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Fox and Back to the Future Style.

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And I was like, bro,
what the fuck is this?

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And he was like, chic.

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And I was like, good time chic.

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And he was like the very same.

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And thus began the journey that I'm still
on all these years later of, oh wow.

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I should appreciate all of this.

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Particularly now Rogers and
Bernard Edwards, but definitely

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all of this a lot more than I do.

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Chic organization limited.

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The one corporation we trust,

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Cliff: Normally with a band so interested
in being cool on purpose, I would use that

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as the entry into why I like the band.

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yeah, I love that they are pseudonymous
people on purpose because they noticed

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that KISS could do different things
as a band because they didn't, uh,

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identify themselves as individual people.

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And then therefore, not only are we
not going to put ourselves on the album

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cover, but we're gonna use this really
specific aesthetic on behalf of the

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band and like, brand the whole thing.

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Normally that would be the
door that I would go see.

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That's annoying in a
cool way, and I like it.

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But instead, the enduring thing I can't
get over about listening to this record

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over and over again is I have yet to
become tired of listening to this record

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over and over again, and on paper that is

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Kyle: you just, you can't stop.

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You can't stop listening to it.

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it's like a full day's thing, and I
can attest because it's happened to

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me for multiple full days where I'm
like, wow, I think I've been listening

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to this for like 12 hours straight.

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Cliff: I am a happy man.

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Kyle: I am a happy man, by the way.

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Eight songs, 41 minutes, so
12 hours is almost 15 lessons.

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Cliff: basically a Prague record,

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Kyle: Basically

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a, basically a pro record.

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I, you know, I thought about so
many touch points with this record.

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I, I think in addition to all the
things that work just on their face

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musically and aesthetically with,
you know, the Black Roxy Music as

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Nile has described them, there are
few records that are direct Pneumatic

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tube connections to so much music.

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in some ways, if Chic isn't the
quintessential American project, you

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know, where if you're like golden
record in space, what's the thing

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that you tell the aliens or a time
traveler about, like, where's the

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first place you could start that
could get you to all the other places?

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I could make a case for Chic
and, you know, maybe, if not

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Chic, then certainly Nile.

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And I'd be careful, and I know
we talked about this in the lead

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up, I don't wanna do the myth
of the individual genius thing.

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I tend to only reserve that
for princes and even that has,

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its behind the curtain moments.

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And as much as there is to talk
about just with Nile, and I'd

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love to unpack that a little bit.

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It really is about the Chic
organization and like all the people

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and things and ideas happening here.

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John Fadi is on trumpet.

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fucking Luther Vandross is one
of the vocalists on this thing.

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How many years did I listen
to Sheik before I knew?

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It's an embarrassingly late
breaking piece of knowledge for

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me in relation to this group.

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So it's, it's really, it's a
fountain of musical joy, but also

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musical knowledge and that's what
all the best stuff should be.

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Cliff: 100%.

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And to give an initial tour of how
ridiculously on point that manages

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to be about this otherwise semi
obscure disco band to us in the

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modern day is like off the top.

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There are connections through
to Sesame Street, the Apollo

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Theater starting hip hop.

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the disco sucks.

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it cannot be overstated how obviously
directional all this stuff ended

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up being, which is especially weird
specifically because this is inside

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of a genre that conceptually stopped
existing pretty quickly after this record.

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And yet we can see all the lines
directly into not only what disco

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became, but what hip hop became to,
what funk was and what it became.

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But then also every.

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Almost every individual musician here is
another spiderweb in a lot of directions.

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Nile will be the easiest one
for me because I have been aware

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somewhat of his influence of guitar
technique for a really long time.

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this is a type of dude guitar
magazines loved talking to and talking

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about, especially back in the day.

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So there was a lot of stuff, not only
about like chucking, which is we'll

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talk about, but the name that they
gave, a specific technique that he

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had, but like just down to thinking
about chord inversions in string

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muting and very specific guitar
technique that when you think about

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it and listen really specifically even
at the guitar level is now actually

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transcending those genres immediately.

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Like, wait a minute, I can pick this
up and put it on a funkadelic song if I

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wanted to, or a jazz record or a pop song.

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I can pick up this bass and
then put it in hip hop or a

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pop song over here in like the.

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The personalities, especially of both.

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Now Rogers and bassist, Bernard
Edwards, like they bring such,

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it's not just musicianship, it's
a near embodiment of personality

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to their individual instruments.

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They play off each other
in incredible ways.

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And through doing that, again, like make
what feels now like completely timeless

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music, to me, the closest I can get to
making this feel old or stale is a reach.

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But like, if I try to think of it
that way, I can fault the production

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for sounding like it's from the
late seventies at times, I guess.

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But like I, I would love
to see this exact band live

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Kyle: A hundred percent.

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Cliff: Right now.

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I would pay a lot of money for it.

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And frankly, again, I would invite
everyone I know because arguably this

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is like somehow the most accessible
album we've talked about so far.

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to me, this started hitting on
even the type of thing we talked

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about in the Olivia Rodrigo episode
of like, just let yourself think.

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This is cool.

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Just like, calm down,
listen to how good this is.

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It doesn't have to be a
part of your identity.

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you haven't listened to this, you've
just missed some important cool bit

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of like culture in musicianship and
like I just focusing on this record

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honestly, sort of like illmatic as well.

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Like these records will now be
played a lot more when other

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people are around me than ever

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Kyle: Yeah.

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This is one of those ones that you
hope everybody else is already really

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into, and we're way behind the eight
ball as longtime casual appreciators.

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but I suspect if both of us were
sort of in the secondary, tertiary

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orbit of everything happening
here, that there's gonna be other

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people that are like, oh, yeah.

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Hell yeah.

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Right on.

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I'm, I'm more on board now.

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this is not for the listeners of Questlove
Supreme who already know every demo every.

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Everything Nile Rogers has ever played
on and have a massive playlist of

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all his stuff going all the time.

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I don't know.

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I'm finding a lot this season, this
year with these episodes that we're

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doing, these albums we're covering

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and almost inverse gate key
thing, where it was like early on,

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there's stuff that I want people
to know about or not know about.

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My relationship to it is
like outside in, in that way.

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And now, I don't wanna say like getting
over the shame of getting to know stuff

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at my own pace, but I'm just very much
in a place in my life with art where

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it's like, there's some stuff that I
know way more about than other people.

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Like the Southern Christian metal scene
in Georgia in the early two thousands,

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or like an average three 11 set list
from 97 to oh three or something, you

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know, or like esoteric metaphysics books
from the seventies to the two thousands.

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But there's so much stuff that like
we just don't know that much about.

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And that's the great pleasure, I guess,
of this podcast too, is like, we're

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still adding on to the body of knowledge.

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I mean, how long ago did we
talk about John Coltrane?

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And I'm still, there's still a new
thing on a regular basis where I'm like

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getting rocked by a John Coltrane thing,
certainly by an Alice Coltrane thing.

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And like new conversations
and new things bubble up.

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And so like you're always
gonna be playing from behind.

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And I guess like that's the exciting
thing about life is you just

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are always catching up on stuff.

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There's always more stuff than
you have time and energy and

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attention to devote to it.

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And then you just run
outta time and you die.

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But at least you had fun the whole time.

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So I'm trying to let go of my guilt
that we didn't know more sooner.

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we're just lucky to be here.

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Cliff: Look man, if there's people who
know more and you'd be a cool person

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to talk to, you can come on this
podcast and we'll ask you questions.

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Okay?

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Like I, it's just free knowledge
for everybody at this point.

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I am so freaked out by dead internet.

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All I want now is for people to be

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Kyle: Alive.

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Alive internet and,

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Cliff: Just al alive and have a
nugget of optimism about music.

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Kyle: I was thinking about
this exact thing the other day.

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There's that internet personality,
uh, sly Ida, she is like making a cup

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of coffee in her kitchen and flashes
up an album, artwork and then flashes

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up like factoids about the music.

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And it's always incredibly
obscure stuff for the most part.

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And then she'll post stuff on her story
about like, the things people say to her.

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And she's got this community
that mostly seems very cool and

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supportive and grew to like a
hundred thousand followers overnight.

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But occasionally she'll get those
weird gatekeeper people that are

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like, you should know more about this.

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Or like, actually, this
thing is better or whatever.

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And she's like, Hey, shut the fuck up.

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Don't try to tell me things.

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I know things.

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And I, and my first instinct was
like, no, I want you to tell me

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things like I, you just, I'll go
somewhere just to listen to you.

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I don't know the things,
you tell me more things.

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Why don't more people have that
posture the music and creative world?

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Just a spirit of like
openness and humility.

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I mean, I know why, but that's
its own two hour healing journey.

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Tune take with crystals.

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Cliff: You've opened a door for me.

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You may not have wanted to open, but
now we're going to go through it.

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This is fun.

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I have been thinking a lot actually
to this end, about kind of two

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trains of thought at once recently.

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One is I went back and read
again how to Listen to Jazz.

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Kyle: Oh yeah.

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Cliff: Have you read that?

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Okay.

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So just kind of straight up to
everybody, especially if you're

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interested in listening to music in

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Kyle: Ted Chia and um, sorry Ted.

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00:13:56,645 --> 00:13:57,490
That's the one, right?

231
00:13:59,405 --> 00:14:00,305
Cliff: That's the one.

232
00:14:00,331 --> 00:14:03,010
because I avoided saying
his last name for now.

233
00:14:03,310 --> 00:14:03,790
Obvious

234
00:14:03,970 --> 00:14:05,380
Kyle: I'll always step on that.

235
00:14:05,380 --> 00:14:05,740
Rake.

236
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,180
On behalf of this podcast,

237
00:14:08,015 --> 00:14:08,365
Cliff: Thank

238
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:09,190
Kyle: mean it with love.

239
00:14:09,190 --> 00:14:10,600
Please reach out and correct me.

240
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:12,160
Cliff: Yes.

241
00:14:12,370 --> 00:14:15,580
Send, please send us an audio
clip of you pronouncing it.

242
00:14:15,580 --> 00:14:16,600
We'll splice it in.

243
00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:17,110
It'll be

244
00:14:17,185 --> 00:14:19,945
Kyle: I love, listen, people talk
shit about getting a voice note.

245
00:14:19,945 --> 00:14:21,025
I love a voice note.

246
00:14:21,025 --> 00:14:25,105
I love, I love all the context
of your voice and you walking on

247
00:14:25,105 --> 00:14:26,095
the street and all that stuff.

248
00:14:26,095 --> 00:14:29,305
So please, please gently
call me out in a voice note.

249
00:14:30,490 --> 00:14:32,230
Cliff: I would love to
receive more voice notes.

250
00:14:32,260 --> 00:14:36,550
They're extra great because you get to
talk and then I get to read the transcript

251
00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:40,930
of what you said instead, and it just,
it's exactly what everyone wants.

252
00:14:41,620 --> 00:14:41,770
It's.

253
00:14:44,975 --> 00:14:49,330
I'll fill in my second train of thought
in a second, but like, why the how to

254
00:14:49,330 --> 00:14:54,739
listen to jazz thing stuck out to me,
for whatever reach this podcast has and

255
00:14:54,739 --> 00:14:59,119
whatever human beings we're connecting
to, that is a good book on the avenue

256
00:14:59,119 --> 00:15:05,089
of like, I want to think a bit about
how I think about music on purpose.

257
00:15:05,509 --> 00:15:10,598
And one of the reasons that that book is
helpful is because, first of all, I think

258
00:15:10,598 --> 00:15:15,098
it's brilliant in general that it just
tries to use jazz as the subject matter.

259
00:15:15,278 --> 00:15:20,258
So here's the most like aggressively
inaccessible thing that you're the most

260
00:15:20,258 --> 00:15:22,448
worried about listening to smartly.

261
00:15:22,958 --> 00:15:24,188
And then let's walk you through it.

262
00:15:24,458 --> 00:15:29,258
And then what happens is you're
going to get both ends of something.

263
00:15:29,258 --> 00:15:32,708
You're going to find out, oh, there
are people who have been thinking about

264
00:15:32,708 --> 00:15:38,558
this for decades and I haven't, and
that feels weirdish or, or maybe bad.

265
00:15:38,798 --> 00:15:43,208
And then before too long, that author
and then every other person who's been

266
00:15:43,208 --> 00:15:46,418
thinking that long is gonna come along and
say, but that's not always a good thing.

267
00:15:47,258 --> 00:15:47,618
And.

268
00:15:48,018 --> 00:15:52,848
There is a way for you to, through
understanding all these details about

269
00:15:52,848 --> 00:15:57,708
music, actually try to revert more like
to your childlike state and learn to

270
00:15:57,708 --> 00:16:04,878
listen to the musicality of somebody, not
as its complexity or excellence on its

271
00:16:04,878 --> 00:16:10,908
own, but how to notice when excellence
is happening because someone has reached

272
00:16:10,908 --> 00:16:16,218
flow state because they've transcended
thinking about music into actually

273
00:16:16,218 --> 00:16:18,198
expressing themselves inside of it.

274
00:16:18,258 --> 00:16:22,952
And like it teaches you and helps
you and encourages you in this way to

275
00:16:22,952 --> 00:16:29,061
like you're evaluation and critique or
thought or whatever is editorialization

276
00:16:29,451 --> 00:16:31,071
about what you're listening to.

277
00:16:31,401 --> 00:16:36,951
You can try to make it heady if you want,
but if you go too far in that direction,

278
00:16:36,951 --> 00:16:39,681
it's gonna just snap you back to Yeah.

279
00:16:39,681 --> 00:16:44,421
But what's the difference between John
Coltrane playing a Love Supreme and

280
00:16:44,421 --> 00:16:49,191
John Coltrane playing ascension, which
sounds like nonsense for the most part,

281
00:16:49,911 --> 00:16:51,951
and like, why is that the same person?

282
00:16:52,371 --> 00:16:53,451
How are these valid?

283
00:16:53,511 --> 00:16:54,801
Is one good or bad?

284
00:16:54,921 --> 00:16:58,047
And all this so at once, I've
been thinking a lot about that.

285
00:16:58,077 --> 00:17:02,637
The reason I've been thinking about it in
the second train of thought is interesting

286
00:17:02,637 --> 00:17:04,257
phenomenon has occurred for me lately.

287
00:17:04,317 --> 00:17:06,417
I'm betting it's occurred
for you too, Kyle.

288
00:17:07,135 --> 00:17:11,275
I am so specific about what I listen to.

289
00:17:12,145 --> 00:17:18,555
All the time that I had not
encountered the AI song problem at

290
00:17:19,025 --> 00:17:19,525
Kyle: If that's right.

291
00:17:19,610 --> 00:17:19,990
Me neither.

292
00:17:20,205 --> 00:17:22,455
Cliff: completely oblivious to it.

293
00:17:22,665 --> 00:17:27,315
And what I mean by that is, and I wanna
be like clear 'cause people can't see

294
00:17:27,315 --> 00:17:30,855
my face or whatever, you know, hopefully
everybody knows by this point, this

295
00:17:30,855 --> 00:17:33,855
is not we may be sarcastic, but this
is never an elitist conversation.

296
00:17:34,125 --> 00:17:37,575
So I'm just telling you like,
I'm, as a matter of fact, with

297
00:17:37,575 --> 00:17:45,345
the way that I engage with music,
I never let a radio station play.

298
00:17:45,665 --> 00:17:50,645
Well, first of all, I, I personally don't
ever use like the radio station feature of

299
00:17:50,645 --> 00:17:55,685
a thing, but even when I did or would use
something like that, it's never like the,

300
00:17:55,715 --> 00:18:00,005
Hey, just go ahead and keep playing things
that sound like what I was playing before.

301
00:18:00,605 --> 00:18:03,725
I, I never ever, ever,
ever, ever, ever do that.

302
00:18:04,025 --> 00:18:05,495
That is what radio is.

303
00:18:05,585 --> 00:18:09,725
And radio works away and it fits
in the slot that it fits in for me.

304
00:18:10,115 --> 00:18:14,535
And so if I, if I want to have a
lean back experience with subpar

305
00:18:14,535 --> 00:18:15,825
music choice, I'll do that.

306
00:18:16,095 --> 00:18:19,875
Otherwise, I will suffer the intellectual
consequence of having to constantly

307
00:18:19,875 --> 00:18:23,595
choose what I listen to, even if that
means that I stop listening sometimes.

308
00:18:23,670 --> 00:18:26,760
Kyle: I've learned as I've
gotten older, it's a me problem.

309
00:18:27,150 --> 00:18:34,543
I know that it's a control issue and
whatever, but I can keep the vibe better

310
00:18:34,633 --> 00:18:39,163
for everyone if I can just have this
little thing that I've learned over the

311
00:18:39,163 --> 00:18:41,203
years that most people aren't noticing.

312
00:18:41,653 --> 00:18:43,363
And it really bothers me a lot.

313
00:18:43,985 --> 00:18:46,295
You know, when the next
note is the wrong note.

314
00:18:47,375 --> 00:18:48,395
The radio can be great.

315
00:18:48,395 --> 00:18:49,565
It can be three great things.

316
00:18:49,565 --> 00:18:54,995
And then if there's an Imagine Dragons
it, the Friday night is a wash for me.

317
00:18:55,325 --> 00:18:58,925
It was so very nearly
there and then it wasn't.

318
00:18:59,419 --> 00:19:01,099
So I get it.

319
00:19:01,159 --> 00:19:07,039
I suspect people that listen to a
whole podcast episode about just one

320
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:09,319
album probably also get it as well,

321
00:19:10,114 --> 00:19:10,714
Cliff: for sure.

322
00:19:12,814 --> 00:19:15,664
Okay, so why the fuck did I bring
either of those two things up?

323
00:19:15,694 --> 00:19:16,114
Okay.

324
00:19:16,744 --> 00:19:19,834
Because the A I DJ is never
gonna bring, you say, chic

325
00:19:20,234 --> 00:19:22,999
Kyle: may maybe, maybe lay freak.

326
00:19:24,014 --> 00:19:27,974
But then to take you in a totally
different direction, that's not

327
00:19:27,974 --> 00:19:31,244
going to satisfy you with the
same nuances of the other things

328
00:19:31,244 --> 00:19:32,774
happening on this record For sure.

329
00:19:33,059 --> 00:19:33,659
Cliff: Yes.

330
00:19:34,049 --> 00:19:37,559
What is the experiential train of
thought in which a computer would go?

331
00:19:37,619 --> 00:19:38,714
SSIR fair.

332
00:19:38,714 --> 00:19:44,783
Now, I. And even if we get there,
the path to getting there is gonna

333
00:19:44,783 --> 00:19:48,773
be so much less interesting than
the one of you a human being.

334
00:19:49,163 --> 00:19:56,153
Cons, literally constantly saying, no,
there is infinity music and there is so

335
00:19:56,153 --> 00:20:01,883
much I haven't listened to and everything
that I listen to has tendrils going

336
00:20:01,883 --> 00:20:03,923
backwards and forwards and up and down.

337
00:20:04,103 --> 00:20:08,303
Like I, this is sort of like an
early encouragement just to people

338
00:20:08,303 --> 00:20:10,973
listening like, don't stop doing this.

339
00:20:11,363 --> 00:20:17,273
And if you have stopped or if you've eased
up and allowed software of any type, even

340
00:20:17,273 --> 00:20:21,653
if it's like from a good company, even if
band camp wants to tell you what to listen

341
00:20:21,653 --> 00:20:25,913
to next, okay, take it as information.

342
00:20:26,093 --> 00:20:29,123
Do not let it guide your
experience perpetually.

343
00:20:29,273 --> 00:20:34,523
One, because you'll have a better
overall experience in this weird

344
00:20:34,763 --> 00:20:36,713
AI transition moment in general.

345
00:20:37,043 --> 00:20:41,393
But secondly, like you, you are
maintaining a connection in that

346
00:20:41,393 --> 00:20:44,333
moment to art that it's important.

347
00:20:44,453 --> 00:20:45,563
I don't know how to express this.

348
00:20:45,563 --> 00:20:51,293
Like it's a very important human
thing that you can maintain and like,

349
00:20:51,293 --> 00:20:53,903
it's part of what excited me about
talking about this record at all.

350
00:20:54,038 --> 00:20:58,658
Kyle: so there's a bit of like the
moral case for the real thing in what

351
00:20:58,658 --> 00:21:03,398
you're saying, but I'd, I'd argue that
like the essence of what makes Sheex

352
00:21:03,398 --> 00:21:06,698
so good, and like you said, this is
the most accessible record we've ever

353
00:21:06,698 --> 00:21:08,678
covered, is because you just feel it.

354
00:21:08,678 --> 00:21:12,728
There's an intangible quality that you
just feel, and what you were just saying

355
00:21:12,758 --> 00:21:18,638
brings up for me, a, a thing that I have
noticed and, maybe the data would the

356
00:21:18,758 --> 00:21:23,438
back this up and maybe it wouldn't, but
it really feels like a really positive era

357
00:21:23,438 --> 00:21:26,978
for DJs for like an age of the selector.

358
00:21:27,068 --> 00:21:32,558
Again, like a real human person doing
super cool blends and transitions

359
00:21:32,588 --> 00:21:36,398
and curations that you wouldn't
have thought of A lot of the stuff

360
00:21:36,398 --> 00:21:38,528
you've never found or heard of.

361
00:21:39,068 --> 00:21:44,258
And like club culture and especially
black club club culture seems very

362
00:21:44,258 --> 00:21:50,018
alive right now between like boiler
room, everything that Zach Fox

363
00:21:50,078 --> 00:21:52,628
and Jody are doing and curating.

364
00:21:53,249 --> 00:21:56,939
even like, I don't love the
Spotify DJ feature, but.

365
00:21:57,869 --> 00:22:02,969
My wife has been using it because she'll
get these ideas about songs that are

366
00:22:02,969 --> 00:22:07,739
connected in abstract ways, and she's
got a whole note in her phone for

367
00:22:07,739 --> 00:22:11,759
like, let me try to blend those in ways
that'll, that'll be interesting to me.

368
00:22:11,909 --> 00:22:17,969
And I swear to God, not a single
one of the pairs have I thought of,

369
00:22:18,209 --> 00:22:22,319
or every single time she's, she's
texted me one, it's been like, oh,

370
00:22:22,319 --> 00:22:23,219
I wouldn't have thought of that.

371
00:22:23,579 --> 00:22:24,569
That's really great.

372
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:25,719
And because it's,

373
00:22:25,794 --> 00:22:26,154
Cliff: Alright,

374
00:22:26,439 --> 00:22:30,729
Kyle: it's right, it's unique to
the DNA of all the influences that

375
00:22:30,729 --> 00:22:32,379
have made her hurt over the years.

376
00:22:33,099 --> 00:22:39,459
And so thinking about this album, like
AI could never do, I Want Your Love Into

377
00:22:39,459 --> 00:22:43,149
Love Sign the Shock g remix by Prince.

378
00:22:43,389 --> 00:22:45,369
And like, I know that shit would work.

379
00:22:45,969 --> 00:22:51,069
And I, I know a DJ would do that
and it would go off on like one

380
00:22:51,069 --> 00:22:55,569
of those, I'm doing the thing
in a coffee shop type things.

381
00:22:55,599 --> 00:22:57,969
We know where people are just
dancing and vibing in the background.

382
00:22:58,471 --> 00:23:03,811
AI could never, AI doesn't understand
those abstract, like when it's

383
00:23:03,961 --> 00:23:06,234
real, you'll feel it type things.

384
00:23:06,474 --> 00:23:11,784
So if the world's got you feeling weird,
I, I think we are aligned and saying

385
00:23:11,784 --> 00:23:15,654
like, find ways to feel more deeply human.

386
00:23:16,479 --> 00:23:18,579
Find like connections
that don't make sense.

387
00:23:18,579 --> 00:23:22,192
Go out there, find the real thing and
find other people who are chasing it and

388
00:23:22,192 --> 00:23:26,692
you'll find your community and your like
connections to new great music there.

389
00:23:27,052 --> 00:23:28,162
You'll stay alive.

390
00:23:28,162 --> 00:23:30,634
The more human you try to feel.

391
00:23:31,425 --> 00:23:31,695
Cliff: Hell

392
00:23:31,845 --> 00:23:33,015
Kyle: let Daniel like beat you.

393
00:23:33,045 --> 00:23:36,702
Like if you're feeling down, if you're
feeling really depressed, just pull

394
00:23:36,702 --> 00:23:40,182
up a Google image search of Daniel
Eck and just look at his shitty face

395
00:23:40,182 --> 00:23:43,002
for a minute and just be like, win.

396
00:23:43,902 --> 00:23:44,772
That can't win.

397
00:23:45,492 --> 00:23:46,092
Elon Musk.

398
00:23:46,092 --> 00:23:48,962
Just like, pull up a full body
picture of Elon Musk and be like,

399
00:23:48,962 --> 00:23:51,419
that can't beat me at being alive.

400
00:23:53,845 --> 00:23:54,595
I won't let it.

401
00:23:54,995 --> 00:23:55,985
so good things.

402
00:23:56,375 --> 00:23:56,855
Good things.

403
00:23:56,855 --> 00:24:03,079
I think, I think worth, just like
the quickest possible 32nd backstory.

404
00:24:03,529 --> 00:24:08,509
Now, Rogers and Bernard Edwards
met in 1970 as session musicians.

405
00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:13,879
So worth noting that these are like
guys that have had serious chops a

406
00:24:13,879 --> 00:24:18,439
decade before this record came out
and have played on a ton of stuff.

407
00:24:18,829 --> 00:24:23,684
And they're in New York City, so they're
like Barry on the scene, especially Nile.

408
00:24:24,397 --> 00:24:28,237
They formed a band that became the
Big Apple band and they gigged all

409
00:24:28,237 --> 00:24:32,556
around New York City in the clubs,
that's sort of its own thing.

410
00:24:33,156 --> 00:24:37,296
Think of it almost in a James Brown
and the JB Sense of just like, you're

411
00:24:37,296 --> 00:24:40,476
the evening's entertainment and
you play and play and play and you

412
00:24:40,506 --> 00:24:44,976
gotta have some versatility in some
ability to do whatever, all respect

413
00:24:44,976 --> 00:24:47,076
to a cover band or a house band.

414
00:24:47,526 --> 00:24:51,516
It just seems really easy to take
for granted, but it is hard to do.

415
00:24:52,238 --> 00:24:56,078
Cliff: Can we make sure to mention before
we get too far from here where they met

416
00:24:56,483 --> 00:24:57,263
Kyle: yes, please do

417
00:24:57,989 --> 00:25:03,489
Cliff: while working as touring musicians
for the Sesame Street Stage Show, which is

418
00:25:03,594 --> 00:25:04,494
Kyle: so sick.

419
00:25:04,959 --> 00:25:05,249
Yeah.

420
00:25:05,629 --> 00:25:06,489
That's incredible.

421
00:25:08,329 --> 00:25:09,229
That's like

422
00:25:10,029 --> 00:25:13,689
Cliff: Sesame Street are low key
progressive homies over the years.

423
00:25:14,259 --> 00:25:16,449
We love participation in this show.

424
00:25:16,679 --> 00:25:21,424
Kyle: brought to you by viewers like you
and see like pay into the public good.

425
00:25:21,454 --> 00:25:22,474
'cause you might get chic.

426
00:25:24,522 --> 00:25:26,952
It's a, it's  real straight
line between those two things.

427
00:25:27,492 --> 00:25:29,322
Everything is po, everything is political.

428
00:25:29,322 --> 00:25:30,492
It is truly that deep.

429
00:25:32,978 --> 00:25:36,083
they had a, they had a, they had
a, they had, was an amazing name

430
00:25:36,083 --> 00:25:37,763
for a band from New York City.

431
00:25:37,963 --> 00:25:39,523
You gotta love the confidence of that.

432
00:25:39,973 --> 00:25:43,303
Had a hit record in 73
called, I'm Doing Fine now.

433
00:25:43,703 --> 00:25:49,113
New York City broke up in
1976, I'm hugely reducing this.

434
00:25:49,475 --> 00:25:52,265
there are multiple books that
are great that cover this.

435
00:25:52,265 --> 00:25:55,475
There is a book on Chic and now,
now Rogers has an autobiography.

436
00:25:55,925 --> 00:25:56,795
I read both.

437
00:25:57,095 --> 00:25:58,115
Both are excellent.

438
00:25:58,531 --> 00:26:02,791
the long and short of it is this idea
around Chic was gestating and as we

439
00:26:02,791 --> 00:26:08,701
alluded to earlier, like multiple things
that the KISS thing and the pseudo

440
00:26:08,701 --> 00:26:15,481
anonymity thing and the Chic organization
thing and the power station studio thing.

441
00:26:15,811 --> 00:26:17,581
All these ingredients are swirling.

442
00:26:17,948 --> 00:26:18,758
and.

443
00:26:19,349 --> 00:26:23,309
I'm just gonna read this blurb Inspired,
after attending a concert by English

444
00:26:23,309 --> 00:26:27,969
glam Rock Band, Roxy Music, who counts
Brian Eno as a member Rogers began

445
00:26:27,969 --> 00:26:31,149
developing the idea for the group
whose music and image would form a

446
00:26:31,149 --> 00:26:34,989
seamless and immersive hole, taking
additional influence from the anonymous

447
00:26:34,989 --> 00:26:36,759
makeup wearing American band kiss.

448
00:26:36,999 --> 00:26:41,019
During 1977, Edwards and Rogers
recruited drummer Tony Thompson, who

449
00:26:41,019 --> 00:26:44,349
was formerly with LaBelle, an ecstasy
passion and pain to join the band.

450
00:26:44,649 --> 00:26:48,979
LaBelle also rips they performed as a
trio doing cover versions of various gigs.

451
00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:52,219
Then Thompson recommended
keyboardist Raymond Jones,

452
00:26:52,249 --> 00:26:53,959
only 19 then to join the band.

453
00:26:53,959 --> 00:26:57,199
As he had worked with him in Ecstasy,
passion and pain, needing a singer

454
00:26:57,199 --> 00:26:59,899
to become a full band, they engaged
Norma Jean Wright by an agreement,

455
00:26:59,899 --> 00:27:01,459
permitting her to have a solo career.

456
00:27:01,459 --> 00:27:06,102
In addition to her work for the band,
using a young recording engineer Bob

457
00:27:06,102 --> 00:27:09,272
Clear Mountain, they created a track
Dance, dance Dance, Yazzy Yy Yaa.

458
00:27:09,642 --> 00:27:11,652
As a result, they became a support act.

459
00:27:11,682 --> 00:27:15,792
The title of the first song recorded
as Sheik was Everybody Dance, which

460
00:27:15,792 --> 00:27:19,967
was on their first album, chic
Self-titled Release Under Contract

461
00:27:19,967 --> 00:27:23,147
with Atlantic Records in 1977.

462
00:27:23,897 --> 00:27:28,127
And boy, as a thesis statement for
understanding this band, everybody

463
00:27:28,127 --> 00:27:34,097
dance is about as clear as it gets
as a musical style declaration and

464
00:27:34,187 --> 00:27:37,817
a political treatise and all that.

465
00:27:38,507 --> 00:27:42,257
So to your point about, I want to get
everyone I know at one of these concerts,

466
00:27:42,589 --> 00:27:44,779
it's because I want everybody to dance.

467
00:27:45,206 --> 00:27:48,491
Cliff: I will agree with you while
standing still at the edge of the

468
00:27:48,506 --> 00:27:48,836
Kyle: Now.

469
00:27:48,836 --> 00:27:55,412
See, I think this is the one instance
where a critical enough mass of people

470
00:27:55,412 --> 00:27:56,822
could actually get you to do it.

471
00:27:56,872 --> 00:27:59,482
I think the way that you have
enthusiastically leaned into this

472
00:27:59,512 --> 00:28:04,672
record, this would be the one night,
like in law at the end of Lawless, when

473
00:28:04,672 --> 00:28:09,502
Big Tough Tom Hardy's character does a
little jig 'cause they beat all the bad

474
00:28:09,502 --> 00:28:11,392
guys and settled into old age nicely.

475
00:28:11,392 --> 00:28:16,642
I, I think you could have maybe
crossed that Rubicon with Sheik

476
00:28:16,852 --> 00:28:17,992
and then you never do it again.

477
00:28:17,992 --> 00:28:18,982
And then we all talk about him.

478
00:28:18,982 --> 00:28:20,302
Remember that time Cliff danced?

479
00:28:20,702 --> 00:28:22,412
Cliff: and I'd be like,
I don't think that I do.

480
00:28:22,862 --> 00:28:29,582
Kyle: So self-titled Chic 77 brings
us to this bad Boy, say Chic.

481
00:28:30,182 --> 00:28:37,896
In 1978, released in August of 1978,
the band's most commercially successful

482
00:28:37,896 --> 00:28:41,856
album, um, reached number four on
billboard's album chart and topped

483
00:28:41,856 --> 00:28:44,106
the US r and b chart for 11 weeks.

484
00:28:44,466 --> 00:28:48,846
It was Billboard's 1979, r and
b album of the Year, certified

485
00:28:48,846 --> 00:28:51,630
Platinum at number two in the uk.

486
00:28:52,050 --> 00:28:56,130
And has a whole alternate version
in Europe with some songs from

487
00:28:56,130 --> 00:28:59,070
the self-titled called Tre Sheik.

488
00:28:59,969 --> 00:29:00,839
Totally different vibe.

489
00:29:01,169 --> 00:29:01,979
Don't do that one.

490
00:29:02,429 --> 00:29:03,119
I mean, it's great.

491
00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:06,054
It's all great songs, but
this is an airtight document.

492
00:29:06,504 --> 00:29:07,584
Say Chic, not Tre Sheik.

493
00:29:08,034 --> 00:29:09,633
So we're up to speed.

494
00:29:09,935 --> 00:29:11,615
You put down the needle on this thing.

495
00:29:12,083 --> 00:29:13,673
Where does the noticing start?

496
00:29:14,213 --> 00:29:15,383
Cliff, what's your cold?

497
00:29:15,383 --> 00:29:16,073
What are your cold?

498
00:29:16,073 --> 00:29:17,063
Listen impressions.

499
00:29:17,513 --> 00:29:21,173
Cliff: one of my favorite slash
least favorite album opening moves.

500
00:29:21,233 --> 00:29:25,763
The slow fade in that makes you
go fucking Spotify's fucking

501
00:29:25,763 --> 00:29:28,343
up again every single time.

502
00:29:30,143 --> 00:29:31,343
Kyle: And then crowd noise.

503
00:29:31,343 --> 00:29:32,723
You're like, is this a live record?

504
00:29:33,173 --> 00:29:37,373
Cliff: Yeah, a confusing start
that quickly becomes worth it.

505
00:29:37,493 --> 00:29:41,187
But yeah, one of the first things
I noticed, which then became a

506
00:29:41,187 --> 00:29:45,147
pattern I noticed in a few of these
songs, and one of the reasons I

507
00:29:45,147 --> 00:29:49,497
have one, one of a thousand reasons
I've started to love these songs.

508
00:29:50,097 --> 00:29:57,987
So they're just long enough to force
a break from a standard format.

509
00:29:58,347 --> 00:30:04,707
They have to have a little breakdown,
freak out, weird return vamp.

510
00:30:04,737 --> 00:30:09,807
So something, what they don't do for
the most part, and I'm saying this

511
00:30:10,497 --> 00:30:17,584
complimentary, they don't repeat the
same thing they're doing or align their

512
00:30:17,644 --> 00:30:22,774
instruments rhythms over and over and
over again in sort of like a drone

513
00:30:22,954 --> 00:30:27,694
or even what we would come to think
of as like a repetitive dance song.

514
00:30:28,234 --> 00:30:30,634
This is dance music.

515
00:30:30,994 --> 00:30:36,291
Before they called it dance for reasons
we might mention, but the driving,

516
00:30:36,291 --> 00:30:42,381
everything on the downbeat phenomenon
doesn't exist nearly as much as you would

517
00:30:42,381 --> 00:30:45,321
think here when you pay attention to it.

518
00:30:45,591 --> 00:30:50,181
And so then specifically to that
end around like three minutes and 20

519
00:30:50,181 --> 00:30:52,591
seconds into this one, which is a.

520
00:30:53,571 --> 00:30:58,401
Oddly enough a time in other songs
that pops up, but there's this like

521
00:30:58,701 --> 00:31:01,551
weird fill that comes in from nowhere.

522
00:31:02,382 --> 00:31:07,902
things seem to like arrive to the party
a few minutes into the song and then

523
00:31:07,902 --> 00:31:13,242
they kind of go, mm, okay, so this was a
drinking party, but we brought mushrooms.

524
00:31:13,812 --> 00:31:14,682
What do you think?

525
00:31:14,952 --> 00:31:15,762
And then it's like, what?

526
00:31:16,422 --> 00:31:16,692
Okay.

527
00:31:16,842 --> 00:31:19,782
And then it comes back and then
we're back to the main melody again.

528
00:31:20,022 --> 00:31:24,852
But like with a little twist, I'm like,
there are so many fascinating things

529
00:31:24,852 --> 00:31:31,452
that happen that are almost to me akin
to what Miles Davis would bring out as

530
00:31:31,452 --> 00:31:36,972
a band leader, where there's so many
good people playing all at one time, so

531
00:31:36,972 --> 00:31:39,312
locked in to what they're trying to do.

532
00:31:39,372 --> 00:31:44,957
And they all feel the groove so strong
that it's drawing out complexity

533
00:31:44,987 --> 00:31:49,037
in a way that doesn't lose you or
keep you from wanting to just like

534
00:31:49,487 --> 00:31:51,167
keep dancing and enjoying the song.

535
00:31:51,347 --> 00:31:54,677
It doesn't, to me at least, like none of

536
00:31:54,677 --> 00:31:55,247
the songs

537
00:31:55,532 --> 00:31:57,062
Kyle: the Champagne of Bitches Brew.

538
00:32:00,165 --> 00:32:00,615
Cliff: Yeah.

539
00:32:00,791 --> 00:32:03,251
And I can, you know, I can definitely
start pointing out a few other things.

540
00:32:03,251 --> 00:32:08,351
But like that's, that is the main
overarching thing that I started noticing

541
00:32:08,351 --> 00:32:13,391
and a great reason to intentionally,
actively listen to this record is

542
00:32:13,391 --> 00:32:16,541
also, it's one of those that we've
talked about before where it's like,

543
00:32:16,751 --> 00:32:18,641
actually this fits every situation.

544
00:32:18,701 --> 00:32:23,531
If you'd let it, great background music,
great out loud things while you're working

545
00:32:23,531 --> 00:32:29,527
if you want to, but you definitely get
rewarded with an intentional listen,

546
00:32:29,527 --> 00:32:34,177
especially to the song structure and some
of the particular instruments in here.

547
00:32:34,477 --> 00:32:40,567
And so all the way throughout these songs
managed to feel, to me more like three

548
00:32:40,567 --> 00:32:47,377
minutes long and they're packed with
something interesting in every case.

549
00:32:47,407 --> 00:32:52,177
And the interesting thing itself is always
a little bit different from the last one.

550
00:32:52,392 --> 00:32:52,618
Would

551
00:32:52,696 --> 00:32:53,296
Kyle: I agree with that.

552
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:55,940
Cliff: you like more examples?

553
00:32:56,637 --> 00:32:57,807
Kyle: Yeah, I would.

554
00:32:59,462 --> 00:33:00,182
I always would.

555
00:33:00,632 --> 00:33:03,452
Cliff: One example, and you'll never
be able to unhear it if you don't

556
00:33:03,452 --> 00:33:04,622
know what I'm talking about yet.

557
00:33:04,982 --> 00:33:08,402
In La Freak it's like two thirds
of the way through the song.

558
00:33:08,852 --> 00:33:12,832
All of a sudden for the first
time there's this drenched in

559
00:33:12,832 --> 00:33:17,722
reverb, weird flat Casio 8 0 8 hit.

560
00:33:19,422 --> 00:33:25,837
what sonically had not been introduced
in any way inside of that song.

561
00:33:26,047 --> 00:33:28,987
And then just sort of drops in
almost like they're about to

562
00:33:28,987 --> 00:33:31,687
do like a mashup or something.

563
00:33:33,247 --> 00:33:36,457
And then it just kind of comes in a
couple of times and then disappears.

564
00:33:36,857 --> 00:33:40,367
Man what was the discussion about that?

565
00:33:40,787 --> 00:33:42,347
Where did that come from and why?

566
00:33:42,347 --> 00:33:43,307
And is that funny?

567
00:33:44,015 --> 00:33:48,356
I can't even tell if that was, we're
gonna inject this because it sounds

568
00:33:48,356 --> 00:33:52,346
really good, versus we're gonna inject
this 'cause that's fucking hilarious.

569
00:33:52,886 --> 00:33:54,836
Like, why, why wouldn't we do that here?

570
00:33:55,620 --> 00:33:58,590
Kyle: This record hadn't occurred
to me as having a sense of humor,

571
00:33:58,590 --> 00:34:01,320
but like it very obviously does

572
00:34:01,770 --> 00:34:02,640
Cliff: funny bone.

573
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:03,000
Definitely

574
00:34:04,290 --> 00:34:09,600
Kyle: literally Funny Bone, but then Chic
Cheer is, that's si, I mean, it's silly.

575
00:34:10,140 --> 00:34:13,974
I don't regard any of it is silly and
so it's like, yeah, we can mess around a

576
00:34:13,974 --> 00:34:16,824
little because we're getting down a lot.

577
00:34:17,919 --> 00:34:18,159
yeah.

578
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:19,959
Sense of humor, but it's more like.

579
00:34:20,409 --> 00:34:22,389
It's not poking fun at anything.

580
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:24,279
It's like Joy Diviv, you know?

581
00:34:24,759 --> 00:34:26,019
It's like, isn't that neat?

582
00:34:26,079 --> 00:34:29,379
You know, everybody's sharing a
laugh at the dinner table type type.

583
00:34:29,439 --> 00:34:32,199
I mean, it's the kind of laugh that if
you're dancing in a group on the dance

584
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,479
floor, everybody's having a good time.

585
00:34:34,479 --> 00:34:37,539
You're laughing at yourselves a little,
you're laughing at the of essence.

586
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,209
It's all just like, it
bubbles out at you type stuff.

587
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:40,959
Yeah.

588
00:34:40,959 --> 00:34:43,989
Sense of humor is, not something
that I would've thought about,

589
00:34:43,989 --> 00:34:45,579
but it's, it's very much there.

590
00:34:46,029 --> 00:34:46,554
Cliff: For sure.

591
00:34:46,614 --> 00:34:51,594
I, and you know, maybe I'm projecting
it, but to me it, that is how it feels.

592
00:34:52,314 --> 00:34:56,724
Um, there is a lightheartedness, well
actually, let me just say more about this.

593
00:34:56,754 --> 00:34:58,374
Speaking of like freak, okay.

594
00:34:58,374 --> 00:35:03,324
Original lyrics to this
song we're fuck off

595
00:35:05,554 --> 00:35:11,104
the original lyrics to freak out
lay freaks, say Chic Freak Out

596
00:35:11,374 --> 00:35:15,034
was fuck off Studio 54, fuck off

597
00:35:18,155 --> 00:35:21,545
a, apparently driven by a singular
moment where they were trying to get

598
00:35:21,545 --> 00:35:28,325
into Studio 54 with Grace Jones and had
a deeply poor experience trying to do it.

599
00:35:28,814 --> 00:35:30,044
not only does that delight me

600
00:35:30,194 --> 00:35:35,579
Kyle: and then the bouncer that wouldn't
let them in apologized on Facebook.

601
00:35:36,014 --> 00:35:40,784
In the 2010s, just like issued a public
apology, like it's still weighing on me.

602
00:35:42,764 --> 00:35:49,290
Oh, by the way, we did get the most famous
disco song in human history out of this.

603
00:35:49,290 --> 00:35:52,380
So, you know, it's not all
bad, but it didn't say all

604
00:35:52,485 --> 00:35:53,775
Cliff: That I did not

605
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,410
Kyle: incredible piece of lore.

606
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,060
Like, are you kidding me?

607
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,330
Why was this beef not settled eons ago?

608
00:36:01,020 --> 00:36:03,360
Why is it being mediated
by Mark Zuckerberg?

609
00:36:03,810 --> 00:36:07,200
Cliff: that dude's conversations
at parties must be insane.

610
00:36:07,230 --> 00:36:09,030
Tell me something
interesting about yourself.

611
00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:09,570
Sure.

612
00:36:10,665 --> 00:36:13,605
Kyle: It's like in the other
guys, when Will Ferrell Kneecaps?

613
00:36:13,785 --> 00:36:14,505
Arod?

614
00:36:14,535 --> 00:36:16,545
It's gotta feel a little like that.

615
00:36:18,015 --> 00:36:23,043
Arod didn't make like freak
obviously after that, but yeah.

616
00:36:23,454 --> 00:36:29,454
Cliff: similar to how we've talked
about this same idea on many records

617
00:36:29,459 --> 00:36:36,569
in the past, when there are directly
serious racial undertones being

618
00:36:36,569 --> 00:36:42,959
addressed, there is very often an
intentional, not silliness, but

619
00:36:42,959 --> 00:36:50,219
lightheartedness in the delivery of
that like direct kind of statement and,

620
00:36:50,669 --> 00:36:54,689
you know, expression, because that was.

621
00:36:56,879 --> 00:37:01,709
Thought of to be and maybe is like
a helpful delivery vehicle for it.

622
00:37:01,949 --> 00:37:07,559
It can sneak past the defenses of certain
people without losing the people who

623
00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:09,809
understand the serious undertones of it.

624
00:37:10,109 --> 00:37:14,009
And so in that sense, is another
fascinating, like cultural

625
00:37:14,009 --> 00:37:18,029
encapsulation, I'm sure we'll talk
about like disco kind of specifically

626
00:37:18,029 --> 00:37:19,589
and what happened to it genre wise.

627
00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:22,929
We've also covered that in
past episodes tangentially.

628
00:37:23,356 --> 00:37:31,816
to be able to deliver a sort of like,
fuck you for this behavior, but also

629
00:37:32,026 --> 00:37:34,906
now it's a song and it's fun and
we're having a good time with it.

630
00:37:34,906 --> 00:37:38,296
And now I play it all the time, you
know, every night live or whatever.

631
00:37:38,296 --> 00:37:40,336
Like, and that's what
we're gonna make out of it.

632
00:37:40,386 --> 00:37:44,496
We're gonna make a clown
outta you for this forever.

633
00:37:44,856 --> 00:37:47,706
But we're not gonna like go burn
down your house or whatever.

634
00:37:47,706 --> 00:37:49,266
Like, this is the path forward.

635
00:37:49,776 --> 00:37:55,366
And like to me, there's, there's so
much of that looking straight into the

636
00:37:55,366 --> 00:38:01,576
camera type of lightheartedness here
from, and, and I think what helps me

637
00:38:02,056 --> 00:38:09,226
see it that way is again, the two main
musicians here being so phenomenally good.

638
00:38:10,516 --> 00:38:17,086
Having experience with stage
performance and like doing live shows

639
00:38:17,086 --> 00:38:21,406
and theatrical things where it's
like you are literally on stage.

640
00:38:21,406 --> 00:38:25,216
You gotta smile, you gotta play
the song, you gotta sort of embody

641
00:38:25,216 --> 00:38:27,076
the performance at the same time.

642
00:38:27,476 --> 00:38:31,396
And on top of that to be, in a disco
band playing songs that are going to

643
00:38:31,786 --> 00:38:36,466
then get played for dancing people
really long and over and over.

644
00:38:36,466 --> 00:38:41,661
Like, there's a really interesting
like, demeanor here and the fact

645
00:38:41,661 --> 00:38:49,911
that it surfs in between any real
seriousness, but also like, this is

646
00:38:49,911 --> 00:38:54,097
not like a B 50 twos feeling record.

647
00:38:54,097 --> 00:38:58,537
This is not like there, there's a
level of silliness that it never

648
00:38:58,537 --> 00:39:02,407
branches into and the closest that
it even gets to it is literally the

649
00:39:02,407 --> 00:39:07,717
end of the literal last song where
they sort of also issue you a warning

650
00:39:07,927 --> 00:39:09,877
about not being too much of a clown.

651
00:39:10,473 --> 00:39:14,463
the intentionality around all that has
impressed me over and over again and

652
00:39:14,463 --> 00:39:15,903
hasn't gone away the more I've listened.

653
00:39:17,673 --> 00:39:24,003
Kyle: Couple that with this philosophical
idea that Nile and Bernard had deep

654
00:39:24,003 --> 00:39:32,133
hidden meaning, or DHM, you know, where
seemingly superficial songs had deeper

655
00:39:32,133 --> 00:39:37,163
narratives that they simplified the
language of like I saw an interview

656
00:39:37,163 --> 00:39:40,853
where now Rogers was talking about like,
that's the core truth of our songwriting.

657
00:39:41,153 --> 00:39:46,528
And to accompany that, we beat these
songs into submission so we can

658
00:39:46,528 --> 00:39:47,998
understand them from every angle.

659
00:39:47,998 --> 00:39:51,838
Like we encode a DNA
in all of these songs.

660
00:39:52,318 --> 00:39:53,998
It's like the reverse voodoo thing.

661
00:39:53,998 --> 00:39:59,338
I, I continue to mention Voodoo, like
you do Led Zeppelin, where like those

662
00:39:59,338 --> 00:40:05,668
guys unconsciously were surfacing a
truth or a deep hidden meaning about

663
00:40:05,668 --> 00:40:12,088
music and like trying to stay in contact
with the Godhead or whatever these

664
00:40:12,088 --> 00:40:16,768
guys were like knowingly trying to get
to it, trying to distill to it at all

665
00:40:16,768 --> 00:40:19,018
times, which is, is very, very cool.

666
00:40:19,018 --> 00:40:22,528
So I, it's, at no point
is it unfair to say.

667
00:40:23,002 --> 00:40:23,992
were they going for that?

668
00:40:23,992 --> 00:40:25,042
Were they thinking about that?

669
00:40:25,042 --> 00:40:25,342
Whatever.

670
00:40:25,342 --> 00:40:29,482
There's a high level of intentionality,
and I think that comes through in the

671
00:40:29,482 --> 00:40:34,432
tightness of the music, and like if
there's two notes missing from the

672
00:40:34,432 --> 00:40:39,712
full chord, that's because Nile's only
playing three strings from being a

673
00:40:40,072 --> 00:40:43,822
stage musician where he was learning
to cut through in the exact right

674
00:40:43,822 --> 00:40:49,342
place in the mix at any given time and
not overpower the rest of the action.

675
00:40:49,552 --> 00:40:53,182
It's a, it is a very, it's a, a
dynamic that's developed with a lot

676
00:40:53,182 --> 00:40:58,312
of aliveness and life experience, so
that, that is probably a component of

677
00:40:58,312 --> 00:41:00,562
like why it brings out the aliveness.

678
00:41:00,742 --> 00:41:01,522
In listeners,

679
00:41:01,972 --> 00:41:05,962
Cliff: I love that in that sense,
connecting it back to what I

680
00:41:05,962 --> 00:41:09,292
was mentioning earlier about
like how to listen to jazz.

681
00:41:09,592 --> 00:41:09,802
Okay.

682
00:41:09,802 --> 00:41:15,202
So in how to listen to jazz, one of the,
one of the things that the author conveys

683
00:41:15,262 --> 00:41:18,472
is there is a thing beyond musicianship.

684
00:41:19,402 --> 00:41:23,792
It is when someone, you know, embodies
the concept so deeply that they're

685
00:41:23,792 --> 00:41:28,534
no longer having to consciously think
about it and can actually express all

686
00:41:28,534 --> 00:41:33,814
of those things unconsciously while
intentionally doing something else

687
00:41:33,994 --> 00:41:38,104
Kyle: it described as timal
sophistication, like knowing

688
00:41:38,104 --> 00:41:40,114
your role on a spiritual level.

689
00:41:40,809 --> 00:41:41,419
Cliff: Holy shit.

690
00:41:41,614 --> 00:41:41,974
Yeah.

691
00:41:42,034 --> 00:41:43,452
Well that's awesome.

692
00:41:43,524 --> 00:41:43,944
Damn.

693
00:41:44,307 --> 00:41:44,697
Okay.

694
00:41:44,787 --> 00:41:50,247
So similarly to that, through
musicianship, I think the

695
00:41:50,247 --> 00:41:55,827
Chic organization shows
compositionally that they like.

696
00:41:56,337 --> 00:42:00,027
That is why they can have a concept
like deep hidden meaning, and talk about

697
00:42:00,027 --> 00:42:03,807
it and create shared language between
two people where they're having a meta

698
00:42:03,807 --> 00:42:05,637
conversation about their own music.

699
00:42:05,907 --> 00:42:11,427
Because from a compositional angle as
performers and studio players and all

700
00:42:11,427 --> 00:42:17,757
that, the experience of like shaping
the music from the ground up is so

701
00:42:17,757 --> 00:42:23,007
embedded in what they're doing that
they are thinking through it, right?

702
00:42:23,007 --> 00:42:27,327
They're thinking on the other side
of the thing and achieving basically

703
00:42:27,327 --> 00:42:31,857
like cultural ends and designing
experiences is a way we might say it

704
00:42:31,857 --> 00:42:38,101
these days that comes through all of
that skill and all of that experience

705
00:42:38,191 --> 00:42:41,251
and partnership and trust happening.

706
00:42:41,701 --> 00:42:45,661
And so we'll like, we'll also definitely
talk about how that gets expressed

707
00:42:45,661 --> 00:42:48,361
through NA's guitar technique.

708
00:42:48,631 --> 00:42:54,001
But I think that's one big piece
of chic, one thing that unlocked

709
00:42:54,001 --> 00:42:55,711
a lot of their music for me.

710
00:42:55,981 --> 00:43:02,491
And it is the thing that I am noticing
when I say, well why is it that two

711
00:43:02,491 --> 00:43:07,531
thirds of the way through basically every
song they do a thing because they're

712
00:43:07,531 --> 00:43:13,132
shaping it, because they know exactly
how long they've been playing that song.

713
00:43:13,402 --> 00:43:17,392
They know, like they could probably,
my guess most of those musicians

714
00:43:17,392 --> 00:43:20,422
could probably tell you how many
measures they had played at any

715
00:43:20,422 --> 00:43:22,462
given point in any of these songs.

716
00:43:23,182 --> 00:43:27,352
And we're making really intentional
choices about when it is time

717
00:43:27,352 --> 00:43:30,622
to now do something else, come
back, how long, all of that.

718
00:43:31,192 --> 00:43:36,068
And you know, that's on the same
level of compositional complexity.

719
00:43:36,068 --> 00:43:39,608
We talked about this some with like
Charles Mingus records, but this is not

720
00:43:39,638 --> 00:43:46,778
that, like that is a really hard to grasp,
bit of con of compositional excellence.

721
00:43:47,078 --> 00:43:49,178
This one is, look, they made it for you.

722
00:43:50,138 --> 00:43:50,498
Don't you?

723
00:43:50,558 --> 00:43:51,368
Don't you like it?

724
00:43:51,428 --> 00:43:52,328
I bet you do.

725
00:43:52,808 --> 00:43:56,168
'cause someone real smart made it for
you and they want you to enjoy it.

726
00:43:56,408 --> 00:43:57,428
And that's the whole point.

727
00:43:57,878 --> 00:44:02,072
So like having all of the subtexts
that we talked about while still

728
00:44:02,072 --> 00:44:08,552
having the main message feel like it's
shut up and dance is really relaxing.

729
00:44:08,672 --> 00:44:13,292
And then to have such excellent
music filling in the back to that

730
00:44:13,292 --> 00:44:18,092
feeling the whole time makes this
record really hard to get tired of.

731
00:44:18,767 --> 00:44:21,722
Kyle: So you mentioned Nile's guitar.

732
00:44:22,345 --> 00:44:27,355
I would love to hone in on some deep
listening, concentrating moments,

733
00:44:27,415 --> 00:44:34,015
and you as my favorite guitar guy,
I would love to hear you talk about.

734
00:44:34,465 --> 00:44:38,455
Inarguably, one of the greatest
guitarists to ever pick up the instrument.

735
00:44:38,695 --> 00:44:41,995
Another thing that I failed to
appreciate, but that is a very

736
00:44:41,995 --> 00:44:43,195
real dimension of this music.

737
00:44:44,095 --> 00:44:45,865
But we can start there.

738
00:44:45,865 --> 00:44:49,195
We can start anywhere else, but I, I wanna
make sure we don't hang up the phone,

739
00:44:49,195 --> 00:44:50,605
so to speak before we talk about it.

740
00:44:51,266 --> 00:44:56,951
worth noting about Nile, doing away
with a individual genius thing.

741
00:44:57,401 --> 00:45:01,482
He had an insane life, dewy Cox level.

742
00:45:02,202 --> 00:45:05,832
Just I could tell you to truth
and a lie and all of them

743
00:45:05,832 --> 00:45:07,452
sound like a bald face lie.

744
00:45:07,902 --> 00:45:12,222
He jammed with Jimi Hendrix,
he did acid with Timothy Leary.

745
00:45:12,672 --> 00:45:15,552
He single-handedly revived
the career of David Bowie.

746
00:45:16,002 --> 00:45:20,714
he's had a major decade defining hit
in every decade since the seventies.

747
00:45:21,164 --> 00:45:27,163
he grew up in a bohemian household
where people like Thelonious Monk

748
00:45:27,163 --> 00:45:29,623
came to buy drugs from his parents.

749
00:45:30,161 --> 00:45:33,281
I think of all the people that
we've ever talked about, only maybe

750
00:45:33,281 --> 00:45:40,028
Ravi Shankar rivals the breadth and
depth of stories that this guy has.

751
00:45:40,793 --> 00:45:46,432
So not only is the technique kind
of revolutionary, but like there's

752
00:45:46,432 --> 00:45:51,742
a whole world of stuff that's going
into like, no, Rogers has to think

753
00:45:51,742 --> 00:45:53,602
about his whole life before he plays.

754
00:45:53,602 --> 00:45:58,241
I know I've made that joke a couple
of times, but like truly there's

755
00:45:58,241 --> 00:46:00,521
always a lot going on in a way.

756
00:46:00,971 --> 00:46:07,061
And like you can see it as recently as he
was on Track Star, the Man on the street

757
00:46:07,391 --> 00:46:13,118
interview where they play him the clips,
he was on Track Star very recently and he

758
00:46:13,118 --> 00:46:19,358
takes longer than most of the people to
get to the, oh yeah, this is dah, dah dah.

759
00:46:19,808 --> 00:46:24,788
You can kind of tell he knows it, but
he like stops and absorbs every time

760
00:46:25,358 --> 00:46:27,668
and there's a moment of remembering.

761
00:46:27,698 --> 00:46:33,218
'cause he's just been on so much
stuff and I really admired that

762
00:46:33,218 --> 00:46:37,448
it was a very small thing and it's
a like blink and you'll miss it.

763
00:46:38,198 --> 00:46:40,088
But he does go on a beat longer.

764
00:46:40,740 --> 00:46:45,180
and you know, maybe I'm projecting
this onto him a bit, but I don't

765
00:46:45,180 --> 00:46:50,790
think you get to the level of prolific
that he has been without like really

766
00:46:50,790 --> 00:46:56,040
feeling the music as an extension
of your whole life in the way that.

767
00:46:56,385 --> 00:47:00,285
That he seems to, I just, I frankly
don't know how he has kept up the pace.

768
00:47:00,285 --> 00:47:04,235
I'd put him up there with
Rd Berman of just like, how

769
00:47:04,235 --> 00:47:05,555
have you done so much stuff?

770
00:47:06,108 --> 00:47:06,258
and

771
00:47:06,288 --> 00:47:08,163
Cliff: It is probably easy
when you look so fucking

772
00:47:08,238 --> 00:47:08,838
Kyle: I know, right?

773
00:47:09,145 --> 00:47:09,415
I know.

774
00:47:09,415 --> 00:47:10,345
It's a lifestyle.

775
00:47:10,825 --> 00:47:11,935
It's a lifestyle truly.

776
00:47:12,408 --> 00:47:16,248
and he's so, I mean,
he's just so good at it.

777
00:47:16,278 --> 00:47:20,808
There's clearly a, we talked
about the LeBron James of Nas.

778
00:47:21,258 --> 00:47:24,978
Both of them have obviously worked
on their craft a ton put in there,

779
00:47:24,978 --> 00:47:27,258
10,000 hours, 10,000 times over.

780
00:47:27,828 --> 00:47:33,664
But when you watch a clinic video, like
there's a, 20 minute fender video of

781
00:47:33,664 --> 00:47:38,044
Nile Rogers going through songs of his
career, and there's a song, there's

782
00:47:38,044 --> 00:47:41,134
a video where he's in a studio, like
a four or five minute video, and he's

783
00:47:41,194 --> 00:47:45,484
just going through what he does with
his left hand and his right hand.

784
00:47:45,994 --> 00:47:50,464
You're like, there's a dexterity,
there's a fundamental level, there's

785
00:47:50,464 --> 00:47:56,314
a floor of physical technical
capability that is very, very high

786
00:47:56,914 --> 00:48:01,444
for this man that he's able to
sustain for very long periods of time.

787
00:48:02,224 --> 00:48:08,649
So I think the noticing for me starts
less with this record, but enable in,

788
00:48:08,654 --> 00:48:15,274
in order to be able to really hear this
record fully, I had to go back and watch.

789
00:48:16,039 --> 00:48:21,529
A lot of just Nile Rogers by
himself playing a guitar to be

790
00:48:21,529 --> 00:48:25,009
like, whoa, this guy is dialed in.

791
00:48:25,459 --> 00:48:26,389
So let's maybe start there.

792
00:48:26,509 --> 00:48:27,289
You wanna start with guitar?

793
00:48:27,708 --> 00:48:29,058
Don't you always wanna
start with the guitar?

794
00:48:30,003 --> 00:48:34,413
Cliff: Set your timers to nine hours
and let me know how far I've gotten.

795
00:48:34,923 --> 00:48:35,403
Yeah, I,

796
00:48:35,418 --> 00:48:38,748
Kyle: Let's bust open the Timespace
continuum talking about the

797
00:48:38,748 --> 00:48:40,368
six Strings of Doom with Cliff.

798
00:48:42,046 --> 00:48:44,926
Cliff: so there, there are
so many things to talk about.

799
00:48:44,926 --> 00:48:51,166
I'll try to give a few different
areas of this their due.

800
00:48:51,616 --> 00:48:57,333
But you mentioned a lot in there,
especially at the beginning not only

801
00:48:57,333 --> 00:49:03,903
how prolific he is, but how interesting
and unusual his experience was as

802
00:49:03,903 --> 00:49:05,913
a kid and how that might translate.

803
00:49:06,063 --> 00:49:10,756
So especially if you've, you know, studied
music before, this is probably gonna

804
00:49:10,756 --> 00:49:12,856
set you immediately on the right course.

805
00:49:13,006 --> 00:49:16,006
He wasn't necessarily one of these
people who were like, he was four

806
00:49:16,006 --> 00:49:19,426
years old and he went to the thrift
store and picked up a fucking guitar.

807
00:49:19,816 --> 00:49:25,141
No, but he took the speed run path, which
a lot of people have done, which is.

808
00:49:25,951 --> 00:49:30,181
He, yeah, he picked up guitar
around the age of like 16.

809
00:49:30,571 --> 00:49:35,671
But before that he was a classically
trained sight reading clarinettist

810
00:49:35,671 --> 00:49:38,016
and flutist, foist, foist.

811
00:49:39,091 --> 00:49:43,891
He played clarinet and flute and like we
sort of mentioned some of this before,

812
00:49:43,891 --> 00:49:49,691
but like that is a really particular
rail that you can ride because if you

813
00:49:49,691 --> 00:49:55,841
are a prolific musician who's young, who
understands how to sight read and then

814
00:49:55,841 --> 00:50:01,541
therefore write down and compose music
and play instruments, you are locked

815
00:50:01,541 --> 00:50:09,773
in to way of playing music that whether
you want it to or not is going to inform

816
00:50:10,163 --> 00:50:12,083
the way you play from there on out.

817
00:50:12,293 --> 00:50:17,933
Like you didn't pick up a guitar and
just played GDC over and over again

818
00:50:17,933 --> 00:50:20,273
with your bros as they drank Bud Light.

819
00:50:20,633 --> 00:50:23,813
And then over time you went, oh
fuck, I just played a Nirvana song.

820
00:50:24,173 --> 00:50:25,313
Like cool.

821
00:50:25,463 --> 00:50:27,293
Like it didn't work like that.

822
00:50:27,293 --> 00:50:32,603
Like he understood as you do when you
learn this way more of the sort of like

823
00:50:32,603 --> 00:50:35,663
mathematical basis of how music works.

824
00:50:35,693 --> 00:50:37,943
Here is your sheet, you play these notes.

825
00:50:38,123 --> 00:50:43,463
Your job is to play only and exactly,
precisely what you see in front of you.

826
00:50:43,703 --> 00:50:48,518
And I like, it seems like I'm
pushing on it like I. I think that

827
00:50:48,518 --> 00:50:53,948
this matters when you are an adult
or you are your own musician.

828
00:50:54,548 --> 00:50:59,978
If someone hands you a piece of music,
you are able to go, okay, you probably

829
00:50:59,978 --> 00:51:04,958
want me to play this, but depending on
the context, you may want me to play this.

830
00:51:05,648 --> 00:51:08,468
But when you are young and
you're learning how to do, nobody

831
00:51:08,588 --> 00:51:10,208
wants your fucking thoughts.

832
00:51:11,228 --> 00:51:11,768
I do not.

833
00:51:11,768 --> 00:51:16,748
I do not need a, a little extra from the
9-year-old at the end, please play what

834
00:51:16,748 --> 00:51:20,918
is written on the paper so that all the
other nine year olds sound right, dude.

835
00:51:21,211 --> 00:51:25,291
I think that not only is, is that a
helpful way of starting to see how he

836
00:51:25,291 --> 00:51:31,297
began his journey, but then on top of
that, because of all the exposure he

837
00:51:31,297 --> 00:51:36,637
had to different people, as a teenager,
he played guitar with African Persian,

838
00:51:36,637 --> 00:51:39,037
Latin, jazz, and Boogaloo bands.

839
00:51:39,457 --> 00:51:46,897
Now, all of those examples, every single
one of them now is taking a classically

840
00:51:46,897 --> 00:51:51,997
trained teenager and saying, now here's
a rhythm that doesn't make sense.

841
00:51:52,627 --> 00:51:57,667
Like every genre I mentioned is like, uh,
yeah, take that, but don't do that at all.

842
00:51:57,727 --> 00:51:59,047
Let's do something different.

843
00:51:59,309 --> 00:52:01,974
now we're gonna find
grooves to sit inside of

844
00:52:02,049 --> 00:52:04,689
Kyle: and oh, by the way,
it's very natural to us.

845
00:52:05,019 --> 00:52:05,924
We grew up with it.

846
00:52:07,044 --> 00:52:07,824
Cliff: Exactly.

847
00:52:08,416 --> 00:52:13,386
So learning, like sort of in the
sense that, miles Davis became like

848
00:52:13,476 --> 00:52:18,636
such a good jazz musician because of
his experience through with, Diz and

849
00:52:18,636 --> 00:52:23,586
Bird and, and learning from sitting
in their bands and going, oh fuck,

850
00:52:23,586 --> 00:52:25,776
someone is so, so much better than me.

851
00:52:26,016 --> 00:52:31,566
I've got to play faster and better
in a similar sense, but without that

852
00:52:31,566 --> 00:52:34,236
same directional pressure for a genre.

853
00:52:34,656 --> 00:52:39,666
Now Rogers learned to play guitar
in basically all the world's types

854
00:52:39,666 --> 00:52:44,614
of music as a kid, and, and I
also feel helpful to mention like,

855
00:52:44,824 --> 00:52:46,444
this is a complete ass person.

856
00:52:46,624 --> 00:52:50,524
At that same time, he was the
subsection leader in Lower Manhattan

857
00:52:50,524 --> 00:52:51,814
of the Black Panther party.

858
00:52:52,164 --> 00:52:56,894
so let's not lose sight of any of that
stuff either, the, that's the sort

859
00:52:56,894 --> 00:53:02,204
of context and experience that this
dude had to then become the person

860
00:53:02,204 --> 00:53:05,474
that we would go on to know who would
do all of this stuff with guitar.

861
00:53:05,704 --> 00:53:08,909
Kyle: And I, I would clarify that
all of that is really important

862
00:53:09,569 --> 00:53:11,789
when you contrast it with something.

863
00:53:12,329 --> 00:53:16,199
So think of all the
Berkeley guys that you know.

864
00:53:16,416 --> 00:53:19,296
I don't mean people specifically
that have a degree from the

865
00:53:19,296 --> 00:53:20,766
Berkeley School of Music.

866
00:53:20,976 --> 00:53:24,036
I mean, guys that play like
Berkeley, guys, I'm not

867
00:53:24,081 --> 00:53:25,581
Cliff: Berkeley guys derogatory.

868
00:53:25,641 --> 00:53:25,851
Yeah.

869
00:53:26,241 --> 00:53:27,981
Kyle: I'm not gonna name and shame them.

870
00:53:28,671 --> 00:53:32,181
I'm not going to shame
you if that is your deal.

871
00:53:32,181 --> 00:53:33,651
I'm not gonna yuck your yum.

872
00:53:34,071 --> 00:53:38,774
But, it doesn't ever really get
south of my Adams apple in terms

873
00:53:38,774 --> 00:53:40,994
of vibrating me, so to speak.

874
00:53:41,276 --> 00:53:46,616
uh, Ron Ashton could, could maybe do some
Berkeley, some free jazz shit, but like,

875
00:53:46,856 --> 00:53:48,656
I don't think a Berkeley guy could do.

876
00:53:49,346 --> 00:53:52,256
I want to be your dog in exactly that way.

877
00:53:54,656 --> 00:53:58,736
and this is again, where Sheik is
the perfect embodiment of that,

878
00:53:59,366 --> 00:54:04,946
of very technically competent,
but also grooves really hard.

879
00:54:04,946 --> 00:54:11,494
A, a flawless, almost impossible to
pull off mix contained in the very

880
00:54:11,494 --> 00:54:16,834
rich, impossible to replicate in a lab
life of somebody like a Nile Rogers.

881
00:54:17,291 --> 00:54:20,497
do we need to make fuck Berkeley
bumper stickers for tune d

882
00:54:22,552 --> 00:54:24,832
Cliff: As long as you put in
parentheses, but Cliff would've gone

883
00:54:24,832 --> 00:54:26,002
there if he could have afforded it.

884
00:54:26,752 --> 00:54:27,382
I'm fine with it.

885
00:54:27,562 --> 00:54:30,057
I'm, I'm down with both messages,

886
00:54:30,667 --> 00:54:33,157
Kyle: Kyle doesn't play any
instruments and he just hates it.

887
00:54:34,477 --> 00:54:36,037
Nothing psychological there.

888
00:54:36,487 --> 00:54:40,867
Cliff: Having the context for why
he would be such a precise musician,

889
00:54:41,197 --> 00:54:45,757
I think is really helpful context
for like, the next couple of things

890
00:54:45,757 --> 00:54:47,317
I'll mention here about technique.

891
00:54:47,677 --> 00:54:54,427
They all stem from exacting precision,
speaking of contrast, right?

892
00:54:54,697 --> 00:55:00,717
Um, Jimi Hendrix, this is not, I would
almost put these two guitarists on

893
00:55:00,837 --> 00:55:05,967
opposite ends of a spectrum with like
Jimmy Page down there with Jimi Hendrix.

894
00:55:06,207 --> 00:55:10,287
They're playing sloppy guitar, and
I don't, and that's not derogatory,

895
00:55:10,617 --> 00:55:16,727
but they play lots of, there's
sympathetic strings, there's feedback,

896
00:55:16,757 --> 00:55:19,037
there's over bending, under bending.

897
00:55:19,037 --> 00:55:22,427
We're gonna like slowly
approach that note.

898
00:55:22,607 --> 00:55:25,817
And everything in between here is
actually off key until we get there.

899
00:55:26,272 --> 00:55:31,732
there's a, a lot of, of messiness in what
made them such incredible guitarists.

900
00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:34,127
On the other hand, all the way over here.

901
00:55:34,397 --> 00:55:39,437
Now Rogers is functional precision
to a degree that's difficult to

902
00:55:39,437 --> 00:55:42,257
appreciate unless you've tried to
do some of these things before.

903
00:55:42,707 --> 00:55:47,057
But two things really stick out
specifically about his guitar technique.

904
00:55:47,297 --> 00:55:50,057
One is the thing that you'll
see pretty quickly if you try

905
00:55:50,057 --> 00:55:51,737
to Google any of this stuff.

906
00:55:52,247 --> 00:55:53,477
Basically, he.

907
00:55:54,197 --> 00:55:59,837
There is like an Ada Pia about his
guitar technique when playing rhythm

908
00:55:59,837 --> 00:56:07,977
called chucking which is not chugging,
chunking, it's chucking which I just hate.

909
00:56:08,097 --> 00:56:10,557
Uh, it has terrible mouth feel as a word.

910
00:56:10,947 --> 00:56:13,647
But what this really is about,

911
00:56:15,657 --> 00:56:22,887
this is selectively and very
intentionally muting specific strings

912
00:56:23,217 --> 00:56:26,307
while playing really particular chords.

913
00:56:27,307 --> 00:56:30,007
And I'll mention some about
the chords in a second.

914
00:56:30,007 --> 00:56:33,967
The chord shapes themselves allow
him to perform this technique better,

915
00:56:34,777 --> 00:56:39,007
but basically like this is sort of
like the opposite of a common blues

916
00:56:39,007 --> 00:56:43,117
guitarist approach where it's like
anything that could be in this key,

917
00:56:43,117 --> 00:56:47,317
I'm sort of down to have it in the mix
and I'll bend and play around with it.

918
00:56:47,527 --> 00:56:51,457
What he is doing here when we're
referring to like chucking is

919
00:56:51,697 --> 00:56:58,777
extraordinarily precise rhythm guitar
with then because he's playing, this

920
00:56:58,777 --> 00:57:03,487
is really hard to only do verbally,
but my hands are moving around a lot.

921
00:57:03,706 --> 00:57:07,786
16th notes are the most common way
that he sort of does this rhythmically.

922
00:57:07,786 --> 00:57:10,006
So he is effectively playing.

923
00:57:10,576 --> 00:57:14,506
So if all right, everybody
gather round, so four beats,

924
00:57:17,296 --> 00:57:20,461
that's four 16th notes are da da.

925
00:57:22,606 --> 00:57:28,336
So that he's playing that rhythm
precisely up and down on his right hand.

926
00:57:28,786 --> 00:57:35,356
Instead of using his right hand to
decide when the chord plays, he uses the

927
00:57:35,356 --> 00:57:40,846
combination of muting certain strings
and then pressing down and pulling up

928
00:57:40,851 --> 00:57:46,306
on the chord shapes themselves so that
he can go between the chord sounding out

929
00:57:46,306 --> 00:57:51,586
and ringing out when he's playing versus
playing effectively like a muted non note.

930
00:57:52,036 --> 00:57:55,426
And so like he establishes like,
this is really kind of like a

931
00:57:55,426 --> 00:57:58,846
common technique, but the thing
is that no one can do it well.

932
00:57:58,876 --> 00:58:03,286
'cause it's really hard to, so
like, unless you produce your way

933
00:58:03,286 --> 00:58:06,946
to doing it or allow yourself to
have some kind of like weird effects

934
00:58:06,946 --> 00:58:08,026
on it or something like that.

935
00:58:08,236 --> 00:58:11,296
Most people don't want to do
this with clean guitar tone.

936
00:58:11,401 --> 00:58:12,571
Kyle: The cleanest,

937
00:58:13,021 --> 00:58:18,061
the cleanest tone imaginable,
cleaner than West Montgomery Jazz.

938
00:58:18,111 --> 00:58:25,281
Pristine tone, like only an acoustic
would be more honest in revealing what

939
00:58:25,281 --> 00:58:29,676
you are and are not playing, and the
competency with which you are playing it.

940
00:58:30,126 --> 00:58:33,456
And by the way, the 16th notes,
you could do a whole listen

941
00:58:33,456 --> 00:58:35,856
through just of Nile's, right?

942
00:58:35,916 --> 00:58:36,996
Nile's right hand.

943
00:58:37,656 --> 00:58:38,796
It's metronomic.

944
00:58:39,094 --> 00:58:40,654
It's like the ac DC drummer.

945
00:58:40,654 --> 00:58:43,114
It is never offbeat.

946
00:58:43,414 --> 00:58:44,254
Even a little.

947
00:58:44,704 --> 00:58:49,834
Seems, seems quantized,
but it's 1978, so, nah,

948
00:58:53,364 --> 00:58:56,694
Cliff: So lots of muting
really precise for them.

949
00:58:56,694 --> 00:58:59,064
And then I love making a callback.

950
00:58:59,274 --> 00:59:02,844
Another time Kyle has asked me to
be a fucking dork about guitars.

951
00:59:03,174 --> 00:59:06,354
We talked once about
Stratocasters versus Telecasters.

952
00:59:06,369 --> 00:59:08,604
Kyle: I, I made a note, I was
like, does Cliff wanna do the

953
00:59:08,604 --> 00:59:10,134
Brooks and Dun Strat thing again?

954
00:59:10,409 --> 00:59:10,629
Cliff: So,

955
00:59:12,924 --> 00:59:19,734
so Nile Rogers eventually started
playing a Strat specifically for

956
00:59:19,734 --> 00:59:23,974
some of the reasons we talked about
before, which is the tone and the way

957
00:59:23,974 --> 00:59:28,174
that the rhythm is brought out by a
Stratocaster in its sort of brightness.

958
00:59:28,744 --> 00:59:33,154
Again, what we were just saying about
like this, it's not like a studio

959
00:59:33,154 --> 00:59:34,744
trick that he was precise about this.

960
00:59:35,014 --> 00:59:38,464
Most people will want to go in the
opposite direction where they would

961
00:59:38,464 --> 00:59:43,894
want to make this muddier sounding not
more precise and brighter, where you

962
00:59:43,894 --> 00:59:46,264
can hear every fuck up more clearly.

963
00:59:46,684 --> 00:59:49,264
But that's what Nile Rogers is doing.

964
00:59:49,819 --> 00:59:56,209
so that helps explain why the
instrument itself that he played

965
00:59:56,539 --> 00:59:58,729
had a name called the Hit Maker.

966
00:59:59,089 --> 01:00:03,439
It was eventually valued at, I can't do
the conversion today because the dollar

967
01:00:03,439 --> 01:00:06,229
is worthless, but over a billion pounds.

968
01:00:06,289 --> 01:00:11,299
It was worth at one time just because
of like the supposed magic that resided

969
01:00:11,299 --> 01:00:15,979
inside of that guitar because of
how many hits it had been played on.

970
01:00:16,279 --> 01:00:21,769
But like for the most part, it's as
my golf coach in high school used to

971
01:00:21,769 --> 01:00:24,139
say, it's the Indian, not the Arrow.

972
01:00:24,439 --> 01:00:26,809
And I don't really know if
that's offensive or not.

973
01:00:27,169 --> 01:00:27,919
Uh, but

974
01:00:28,364 --> 01:00:29,479
Kyle: It is not, not

975
01:00:32,089 --> 01:00:32,569
now.

976
01:00:32,749 --> 01:00:37,129
Cliff: the point in it be it like
no matter how much you think that

977
01:00:37,129 --> 01:00:41,959
special tool is gonna make you awesome,
you can't outperform your shit.

978
01:00:42,829 --> 01:00:48,049
Like you have to get good at the
thing, at least at a base level to make

979
01:00:48,049 --> 01:00:49,849
that excellent sound that you want.

980
01:00:50,329 --> 01:00:56,809
So not only then is he locked in
rhythmically in a really serious

981
01:00:56,869 --> 01:00:59,239
and, and like consistent way.

982
01:00:59,509 --> 01:01:04,099
This is very easily to Kyle,
your point, this is very easily

983
01:01:04,099 --> 01:01:06,019
an active listening point.

984
01:01:06,559 --> 01:01:10,099
If you want to go back through
this record, like just literally

985
01:01:10,099 --> 01:01:11,479
listen to the rhythm guitar.

986
01:01:11,929 --> 01:01:12,589
It's impressive.

987
01:01:12,619 --> 01:01:13,609
It's interesting.

988
01:01:13,969 --> 01:01:18,979
But then to play on all that right,
the, the selective muting of strings

989
01:01:19,429 --> 01:01:24,319
is better enabled by his chord shapes.

990
01:01:24,799 --> 01:01:29,839
So if you play guitar a little bit, you've
probably played like a power chord has

991
01:01:29,839 --> 01:01:32,569
a really particular sort of shape to it.

992
01:01:32,909 --> 01:01:34,379
You have three fingers.

993
01:01:34,379 --> 01:01:35,999
It's 1 5, 1.

994
01:01:36,329 --> 01:01:40,619
And it sounds a really particular
way, but it's like there's a

995
01:01:40,619 --> 01:01:42,069
reason it got used for rock.

996
01:01:42,069 --> 01:01:44,139
It's really chunky sounding.

997
01:01:44,139 --> 01:01:47,409
It's loud, it's thick, it's direct.

998
01:01:47,709 --> 01:01:52,869
All of this that is again, the
opposite of what Nile Rogers is doing.

999
01:01:52,929 --> 01:01:58,179
He is using not only his classical
training from earlier and his ability

1000
01:01:58,179 --> 01:02:02,589
to like know the types of chords you
will encounter when you receive music

1001
01:02:02,619 --> 01:02:08,529
from other people, but his chord
voicings are intentionally complex,

1002
01:02:08,529 --> 01:02:10,809
but in a really predictable way.

1003
01:02:11,229 --> 01:02:15,099
So he'll even tell you in interviews,
like for the most part, I think

1004
01:02:15,099 --> 01:02:18,999
it's like an F minor seven is one
of his like favorite chords to

1005
01:02:18,999 --> 01:02:21,429
play over and over and over again.

1006
01:02:21,969 --> 01:02:22,209
Yeah.

1007
01:02:22,269 --> 01:02:24,909
F minor seven and then F minor 11.

1008
01:02:25,239 --> 01:02:26,739
So these are just like.

1009
01:02:27,189 --> 01:02:32,799
Common cord shapes, and then the
seventh, the ninth, the 11th, the 13th.

1010
01:02:33,039 --> 01:02:36,519
When you hear that, like that is
an additional note further up, that

1011
01:02:36,519 --> 01:02:40,479
same scale being added to the cord
that wouldn't otherwise be there.

1012
01:02:40,539 --> 01:02:44,979
And depending on which one you
do, it introduces this like

1013
01:02:45,061 --> 01:02:47,251
small amount of dissonance.

1014
01:02:47,791 --> 01:02:50,041
That's why they're really popular in jazz.

1015
01:02:50,071 --> 01:02:55,831
It makes you, it leads you through things,
but then like seventh chords and 11th

1016
01:02:55,831 --> 01:03:00,601
chords are cool in and of themself, but
if you know really precisely how to deploy

1017
01:03:00,601 --> 01:03:07,261
them, you can kind of take someone on
a journey just by adding one extra note

1018
01:03:07,261 --> 01:03:11,851
to a chord and it's gonna change the
way that one chord to another sounds.

1019
01:03:12,537 --> 01:03:16,770
again, I remember like, I can't believe
how much I'm extracting from this one

1020
01:03:16,770 --> 01:03:22,110
moment, but like reading how to listen to
jazz, he was telling a story about, and

1021
01:03:22,110 --> 01:03:25,920
now I've forgotten the exact individual
that he was mentioning in this moment,

1022
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:31,710
but he was talking about a really famous
jazz band leader and how when he was

1023
01:03:31,710 --> 01:03:36,900
playing under them, or there was a
story of it, like there was one person

1024
01:03:36,900 --> 01:03:43,355
in a large band who decided to add a
single like 11th to a chord one time.

1025
01:03:44,820 --> 01:03:48,090
This otherwise long song with a lot
of improvisation and all this stuff.

1026
01:03:49,050 --> 01:03:51,480
And he was just kind of
feeling it in that moment.

1027
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:54,390
And then he got a little bit nervous
about doing it because apparently this

1028
01:03:54,390 --> 01:03:58,950
band leader was pretty like precise
and maniacal about people playing

1029
01:03:58,950 --> 01:03:59,730
what they were supposed to play.

1030
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:05,730
And so he, he one time only in the
entire song and he said like what blew

1031
01:04:05,730 --> 01:04:09,810
him away is much later into the night
the guy came right up to him and was

1032
01:04:09,810 --> 01:04:12,199
like, I heard that and I liked it.

1033
01:04:13,639 --> 01:04:17,209
And just like that level
of like, no, he hears you.

1034
01:04:17,209 --> 01:04:21,379
He knows exactly what you just did
to the degree that while he was doing

1035
01:04:21,379 --> 01:04:25,669
his job, he was able to prac like
process what you were intending to

1036
01:04:25,669 --> 01:04:29,509
do and thought to talk to you about
it later because that's how plugged

1037
01:04:29,509 --> 01:04:32,269
in this person is to a fucking note.

1038
01:04:33,169 --> 01:04:37,949
So like that's why this
guitar playing is so good.

1039
01:04:38,369 --> 01:04:42,329
He's not only inverting
chords to make their voicings

1040
01:04:42,329 --> 01:04:44,309
interesting up and down the neck.

1041
01:04:44,639 --> 01:04:48,569
He's adding really specific
notes, compositionally to

1042
01:04:48,569 --> 01:04:50,309
give all these things a feel.

1043
01:04:50,459 --> 01:04:55,574
There's almost no straightforward
chords in any of these songs and

1044
01:04:55,732 --> 01:05:00,502
to keep looping around to things
like, that's awesome because this

1045
01:05:00,502 --> 01:05:02,542
music is accessible to people.

1046
01:05:02,722 --> 01:05:05,272
That's not usually the case, right?

1047
01:05:05,272 --> 01:05:07,702
To get you to listen to
like crazy nights and shit.

1048
01:05:07,702 --> 01:05:11,212
I got to take you in a direction
you don't usually want to go,

1049
01:05:11,212 --> 01:05:12,472
or that doesn't seem right.

1050
01:05:13,072 --> 01:05:18,052
And instead this is like compositionally
interesting music at almost every

1051
01:05:18,052 --> 01:05:21,892
moment done with such precision
and you keep dancing to it.

1052
01:05:22,342 --> 01:05:28,172
that is the worst T-L-D-R-I think I could
possibly even start to give about this.

1053
01:05:28,412 --> 01:05:32,552
But I think that those are the two sort of
interesting, like his rhythmic approaches

1054
01:05:32,732 --> 01:05:37,470
and his chord approaches help you to
start identifying what you're listening

1055
01:05:37,470 --> 01:05:39,090
to in the music and what's interesting.

1056
01:05:39,450 --> 01:05:43,974
But let me quickly then hit on
what I mean by like how deep

1057
01:05:43,974 --> 01:05:45,534
this dude's influence goes.

1058
01:05:45,984 --> 01:05:47,544
Okay, let's play the Will.

1059
01:05:47,544 --> 01:05:50,124
Cliff mentioned them game rhythmically.

1060
01:05:50,605 --> 01:05:56,395
the band that this makes me think
of the most as a guitarist when I, I

1061
01:05:56,395 --> 01:06:01,115
have played a lot of chic music now
recently and tried to learn from it.

1062
01:06:01,115 --> 01:06:04,718
I learned from Nile
his practice technique.

1063
01:06:04,838 --> 01:06:07,208
So we mentioned like 16th notes.

1064
01:06:07,448 --> 01:06:11,768
So the way that he got good at
that is by playing 32nd notes.

1065
01:06:12,143 --> 01:06:16,523
All the time with extreme precision
as fast as he possibly could.

1066
01:06:17,153 --> 01:06:21,653
Now, what that makes me think of is once
you get to that level, so I already did,

1067
01:06:21,683 --> 01:06:25,193
you know, 16th is da da, so double that.

1068
01:06:25,643 --> 01:06:30,295
Now, if you instead of doubling
that, turn that into triplets, that's

1069
01:06:30,295 --> 01:06:33,205
shuga, that's a hundred percent shuga.

1070
01:06:33,535 --> 01:06:38,995
That is exactly how MGA's
guitarists play all of their music.

1071
01:06:39,388 --> 01:06:46,078
I cannot express how weird it is
to realize they are effectively

1072
01:06:46,078 --> 01:06:52,438
doing very similar guitar technique
rhythmically and in a, uh, I'll be a

1073
01:06:52,438 --> 01:06:57,388
little bit generous here, but like in
that same sense, you play a very, very

1074
01:06:57,388 --> 01:06:59,278
steady rhythm with your right hand.

1075
01:06:59,338 --> 01:07:03,448
And then your left hand
technique determines when and

1076
01:07:03,448 --> 01:07:04,768
how that rhythm comes out.

1077
01:07:05,338 --> 01:07:08,638
Nile Rogers does this through
chucking right through, through

1078
01:07:08,638 --> 01:07:13,378
cord voicing, pressing down, letting
strings unmute at the right timing.

1079
01:07:13,738 --> 01:07:20,578
Shuga does this through pull offs, ba
so it's the same idea applied at really

1080
01:07:20,578 --> 01:07:22,948
similar speed with a slight distinction.

1081
01:07:23,128 --> 01:07:26,038
But like now I've just talked
to you about an extreme fucking

1082
01:07:26,038 --> 01:07:29,668
Swedish metal band who's known for
playing faster than anyone else.

1083
01:07:29,668 --> 01:07:31,198
And I'm telling you directly like.

1084
01:07:31,738 --> 01:07:36,628
Not this would be, wow, what a fever,
dream Nile could play this music.

1085
01:07:37,088 --> 01:07:38,618
rhythmically speaking.

1086
01:07:38,768 --> 01:07:41,648
That's very much up his
alley technique wise.

1087
01:07:42,058 --> 01:07:45,808
And is like, to me, like a
really endearing way to like

1088
01:07:45,808 --> 01:07:47,428
look at the instrument of guitar.

1089
01:07:47,818 --> 01:07:49,588
Like how are these things connected?

1090
01:07:49,688 --> 01:07:53,663
Kyle: I am never gonna open a Suno
account, so I need somebody to

1091
01:07:53,663 --> 01:07:58,043
take up the challenge of making
a disco version of MGA's Bleed.

1092
01:07:59,139 --> 01:08:04,139
Because now I can hear the lick completely
clean tone in my head and I need it to

1093
01:08:04,139 --> 01:08:06,299
happen is an itch that must be scratched.

1094
01:08:06,479 --> 01:08:10,616
So even if it's not the full
song, I need the guitar track.

1095
01:08:11,066 --> 01:08:12,296
Cliff: it's really just stinger.

1096
01:08:17,381 --> 01:08:17,591
Kyle: Yeah.

1097
01:08:17,591 --> 01:08:20,831
But I need the, I need
it Nile Rogers Clean.

1098
01:08:21,281 --> 01:08:21,501
Cliff: Yes,

1099
01:08:21,721 --> 01:08:26,401
Kyle: Which makes me feel like it would
maybe be like Che Atkins maybe is like

1100
01:08:26,401 --> 01:08:28,471
the closest thing to sounding like that.

1101
01:08:29,161 --> 01:08:32,524
Some country picker or like a Glen

1102
01:08:32,839 --> 01:08:34,519
Cliff: plus a little bit of surf guitar.

1103
01:08:34,519 --> 01:08:34,999
Maybe

1104
01:08:36,274 --> 01:08:36,964
Kyle: yeah,

1105
01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:41,629
Cliff: it's got some kind of loo
connections almost in that sense.

1106
01:08:42,184 --> 01:08:42,454
Kyle: yeah.

1107
01:08:42,454 --> 01:08:45,844
Who was it of those clean telly guys?

1108
01:08:45,844 --> 01:08:50,619
Was it Glen Campbell that did a
great misou that was pretty famous.

1109
01:08:50,619 --> 01:08:52,493
One of those guys had one.

1110
01:08:52,553 --> 01:08:54,233
So yeah, we're, we're all barking.

1111
01:08:57,173 --> 01:09:01,637
Shuga, Nile Rogers, Dick Dale
being a holy trinity of some sort.

1112
01:09:02,447 --> 01:09:04,097
Cliff: Let me, let me do
you one better though.

1113
01:09:04,207 --> 01:09:07,267
I am excited about even this specific bit.

1114
01:09:07,327 --> 01:09:07,807
Okay.

1115
01:09:08,557 --> 01:09:14,137
Another guitarist that Nile makes me
think of technique-wise very specifically,

1116
01:09:14,317 --> 01:09:18,997
and I love how specific I'm about to be
about this is between The Buried and Me

1117
01:09:18,997 --> 01:09:22,537
is Paul Wagner for a couple of reasons.

1118
01:09:22,867 --> 01:09:27,488
One is, we are living in an age
now where some of our favorite

1119
01:09:27,488 --> 01:09:31,058
musicians on earth occasionally like,
post a story on their Instagram.

1120
01:09:31,058 --> 01:09:32,468
Like, what's up?

1121
01:09:32,468 --> 01:09:36,068
You guys wanna lesson like, yeah, I do.

1122
01:09:36,428 --> 01:09:37,178
I do

1123
01:09:37,483 --> 01:09:40,838
Kyle: Kohler from Converge
is teaching drum lessons.

1124
01:09:43,238 --> 01:09:47,768
I couldn't be ready for that exam
with 10 years of nonstop practice.

1125
01:09:49,388 --> 01:09:50,948
Cliff: I bet he would be very sweet to you

1126
01:09:50,978 --> 01:09:51,908
Kyle: I bet he would.

1127
01:09:51,938 --> 01:09:55,568
I bet we'd just wind up fucking around
and talking about memes and stuff.

1128
01:09:55,958 --> 01:09:57,358
It wouldn't be about drums at all.

1129
01:09:59,393 --> 01:10:05,085
Cliff: So not only am I, uh, I hate
this, but, uh, a relative like student

1130
01:10:05,145 --> 01:10:08,265
of Paul's playing specifically, like
I, I really, really love between the

1131
01:10:08,265 --> 01:10:10,275
barie records for the guitar playing.

1132
01:10:10,515 --> 01:10:13,275
So there's a connection I
can see there in general.

1133
01:10:13,275 --> 01:10:17,625
But I was able to take a lesson, a
couple of lessons actually from Paul.

1134
01:10:18,165 --> 01:10:23,475
The second lesson was,
okay, make this chord.

1135
01:10:23,475 --> 01:10:30,405
She now add the seventh, now add the
ninth, now add the 11th, now add the

1136
01:10:30,405 --> 01:10:35,565
13th, invert it, add the seventh, add
the ninth, add the 11th, add the 13th,

1137
01:10:35,805 --> 01:10:37,635
play the next chord, add the step.

1138
01:10:37,695 --> 01:10:41,505
Like it was all like his
entire approach to it.

1139
01:10:41,505 --> 01:10:45,795
Like we sort of had a quick discussion
about the different ways that we learned.

1140
01:10:45,795 --> 01:10:51,115
Like he doesn't even think in the like
kind of basic you know, you learn like

1141
01:10:51,115 --> 01:10:54,865
the pentatonic scale and stuff like
that early on in like the blue scale.

1142
01:10:55,075 --> 01:10:56,695
Like he doesn't even think that way.

1143
01:10:56,785 --> 01:11:03,055
He's composing and he's really
intentionally choosing notes to add

1144
01:11:03,055 --> 01:11:07,675
to chords because unless they're
sort of doing a death metal thing

1145
01:11:07,675 --> 01:11:10,975
in the moment, and even when, even
when they're doing that, they don't

1146
01:11:10,975 --> 01:11:12,865
really play simple chords ever.

1147
01:11:13,205 --> 01:11:14,195
That's the whole point.

1148
01:11:15,395 --> 01:11:18,965
I would argue their music is a
lot less accessible than Sheik is.

1149
01:11:19,205 --> 01:11:19,955
But like that

1150
01:11:20,185 --> 01:11:22,310
Kyle: They're the closest
thing to Berkeley Music.

1151
01:11:22,310 --> 01:11:22,490
I'll allow.

1152
01:11:26,195 --> 01:11:26,825
Cliff: Hell yeah.

1153
01:11:27,845 --> 01:11:28,175
Like

1154
01:11:28,175 --> 01:11:31,595
Kyle: And only because of that they,
they're only brushing up against it

1155
01:11:31,595 --> 01:11:36,425
'cause of that long dream theater adjacent
period that they had that they've now

1156
01:11:36,455 --> 01:11:39,335
successfully come out of Blue nowhere.

1157
01:11:39,335 --> 01:11:43,235
The new album By Between The Buried and
Me ladies and gentlemen, not a recommended

1158
01:11:43,235 --> 01:11:46,895
if you like Chic, but if you like great
things human beings can do with guitars.

1159
01:11:46,895 --> 01:11:50,081
Those are two very disparate
but equally worthwhile examples.

1160
01:11:50,951 --> 01:11:51,641
Cliff: Absolutely.

1161
01:11:52,721 --> 01:11:57,461
But I, I thought of that moment so
early into listening to this record

1162
01:11:57,461 --> 01:12:04,691
because I, being able to sit there and
like just on a Zoom call and you're

1163
01:12:04,751 --> 01:12:13,001
actively identifying like, are so, you
are so much better than me at music.

1164
01:12:13,721 --> 01:12:16,271
you're like three of my lifetimes.

1165
01:12:16,361 --> 01:12:20,291
If I dedicated all of them to this
and you're just here like, yeah,

1166
01:12:20,291 --> 01:12:22,721
dude, just, yeah, add the ninth.

1167
01:12:22,721 --> 01:12:23,441
Where would it go?

1168
01:12:23,561 --> 01:12:24,011
Cool.

1169
01:12:24,071 --> 01:12:24,581
Thank you.

1170
01:12:24,671 --> 01:12:25,031
Yeah.

1171
01:12:25,181 --> 01:12:26,381
What would a 13th sound like?

1172
01:12:26,561 --> 01:12:27,911
What do you think you should do next?

1173
01:12:27,941 --> 01:12:34,361
And like, to me, that approach to music
and musicianship, but also the openness to

1174
01:12:34,361 --> 01:12:37,151
like, it doesn't have to be that serious.

1175
01:12:37,481 --> 01:12:40,121
There's no gatekeeping to
you learning this knowledge.

1176
01:12:40,151 --> 01:12:42,161
It's just like, yeah, this is how I think.

1177
01:12:42,371 --> 01:12:44,741
If you wanna learn to play like
me, this is how I think about it.

1178
01:12:44,921 --> 01:12:46,991
And you can start thinking about
it that way too, if you'd like.

1179
01:12:47,381 --> 01:12:48,791
All of that translates.

1180
01:12:49,121 --> 01:12:54,251
All the way down back into
really interesting music

1181
01:12:54,251 --> 01:12:55,541
that's difficult to explain.

1182
01:12:55,781 --> 01:12:56,591
Why is it this way?

1183
01:12:56,621 --> 01:12:57,671
It's because of this.

1184
01:12:58,421 --> 01:13:02,501
It's because like there's an incredible
walking baseline happening in every song

1185
01:13:02,531 --> 01:13:07,691
and as a counterpoint to every moment
of it, there's an a tremendously unique

1186
01:13:07,811 --> 01:13:13,241
chord voicing, which makes you feel
like the song is familiar, but it never

1187
01:13:13,241 --> 01:13:15,731
actually becomes fully familiar to you.

1188
01:13:15,881 --> 01:13:17,201
'cause it's not that simple.

1189
01:13:18,341 --> 01:13:25,361
man, the way that that sort of technique
can just draw you along is amazing.

1190
01:13:25,631 --> 01:13:31,871
But I think, and I'll stop like
vamping on guitar technique now, but

1191
01:13:31,961 --> 01:13:37,991
I want to say like that in and of
itself may or may not be interesting

1192
01:13:37,991 --> 01:13:41,321
enough to make a chic there.

1193
01:13:41,381 --> 01:13:45,611
The counterpoint then of Bernard
Edwards being such a good basis and

1194
01:13:45,611 --> 01:13:49,511
having his own techniques and approach
and compositional knowledge means that

1195
01:13:49,511 --> 01:13:56,311
together those things work Like they lock
in in a different way than just like if

1196
01:13:56,311 --> 01:13:58,351
a drummer and a bassist were really good.

1197
01:13:58,861 --> 01:14:01,141
Something different is
happening in that moment.

1198
01:14:01,831 --> 01:14:06,498
And listening to the way that they work
with each other musically throughout

1199
01:14:06,498 --> 01:14:09,318
these songs is literally entertaining.

1200
01:14:10,863 --> 01:14:15,993
Enlightening to me, like I
learned things the more I thought

1201
01:14:15,993 --> 01:14:17,073
about what they were doing.

1202
01:14:17,951 --> 01:14:22,935
so that is truly the smallest bit
of like, look at all the places

1203
01:14:22,935 --> 01:14:24,315
that Nile Rogers has touched.

1204
01:14:24,495 --> 01:14:27,855
Like we, I haven't even talked
about other instruments, his

1205
01:14:27,855 --> 01:14:30,945
synthesizers or his production career.

1206
01:14:31,275 --> 01:14:34,785
I just talked about a couple of
guitar techniques that have been

1207
01:14:34,785 --> 01:14:38,655
so influential that if you look for
them, you can see them in almost

1208
01:14:38,925 --> 01:14:40,455
every modern guitarist.

1209
01:14:40,605 --> 01:14:41,085
Yes.

1210
01:14:41,685 --> 01:14:41,955
Yeah.

1211
01:14:42,435 --> 01:14:46,905
Like I gave some extreme examples to
draw it out, but like, you go listen

1212
01:14:46,905 --> 01:14:52,665
to any jazz or blues guitarist from the
last 15 to 20 years, and you can tell

1213
01:14:53,055 --> 01:14:58,875
like actually now, okay, so now how
to listen to Blues by Cliff fucking,

1214
01:14:58,875 --> 01:15:03,765
I guess like now hopefully you can
start to discern like, are they, if you

1215
01:15:03,765 --> 01:15:05,055
want a better word than sloppy, fine.

1216
01:15:05,055 --> 01:15:09,825
But like, are they on the Jimi Hendrix
Jimmy Page side of playing a thing?

1217
01:15:09,915 --> 01:15:13,755
Or are you hearing intentional
technique and complexity?

1218
01:15:14,235 --> 01:15:15,825
That's being done with purpose.

1219
01:15:16,005 --> 01:15:17,415
Both are equally valid.

1220
01:15:17,865 --> 01:15:18,525
Yeah.

1221
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:19,830
Yeah.

1222
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:26,500
And then because you can listen and
discern that, that itself, I think

1223
01:15:26,500 --> 01:15:28,420
opens up some more music to you.

1224
01:15:28,540 --> 01:15:32,140
You start to know what you're hearing
when you hear a new band that you

1225
01:15:32,140 --> 01:15:35,950
haven't heard before, that'll help you
categorize them and try to understand

1226
01:15:35,950 --> 01:15:37,780
what's coming from a guitarist especially.

1227
01:15:38,170 --> 01:15:40,990
And that's just one example of a thing
you can do, not only with guitarist,

1228
01:15:40,990 --> 01:15:44,350
but then like every instrument
has these dimensions to them.

1229
01:15:44,803 --> 01:15:48,163
Kyle: do, I like the playing tighter
or looser is a whole dimension.

1230
01:15:48,163 --> 01:15:52,873
You could spend just a year of
everything you've already liked and,

1231
01:15:52,933 --> 01:15:54,733
and discoveries you're trying to make.

1232
01:15:55,333 --> 01:15:59,833
You could spend a year just on that
dimension and end up 40% farther

1233
01:15:59,833 --> 01:16:01,093
away from where you started.

1234
01:16:01,143 --> 01:16:06,453
That's a wonderful dimension of human
expression that I think is not necessarily

1235
01:16:06,453 --> 01:16:09,153
always intuitive to think about, but.

1236
01:16:09,497 --> 01:16:14,133
it does sort of signal a worldview
and like a reason for being in

1237
01:16:14,133 --> 01:16:17,373
the music world and creating that.

1238
01:16:17,968 --> 01:16:24,238
you can start to like sort yourself
a little bit rather than across genre

1239
01:16:24,358 --> 01:16:32,788
or place of origin or whatever style,
philosophical approach, adherence to

1240
01:16:32,788 --> 01:16:36,655
rhythm, or like relationship to rhythm.

1241
01:16:36,865 --> 01:16:39,685
Maybe not sticking to, you know,
'cause you can get into things like

1242
01:16:39,685 --> 01:16:41,965
swing and all that sort of stuff.

1243
01:16:42,553 --> 01:16:47,413
investigating your own relationship to
adherence to rhythm is, and challenging

1244
01:16:47,413 --> 01:16:49,663
it is a really interesting thing to do.

1245
01:16:51,703 --> 01:16:55,019
So you mentioned guitar
and bass, that that is the

1246
01:16:55,019 --> 01:16:57,029
fundamental dynamic at work here.

1247
01:16:57,756 --> 01:17:02,556
Kyle and Bernard are the, the
heartbeat of this thing, even though

1248
01:17:02,556 --> 01:17:04,056
everybody plays an important role.

1249
01:17:04,926 --> 01:17:12,116
So like the moments for me to dial in
on fir first quick aside the video that

1250
01:17:12,116 --> 01:17:18,296
I was talking about earlier as a lay
person that I think really dials in on

1251
01:17:18,296 --> 01:17:20,096
exactly what you were just explaining.

1252
01:17:21,791 --> 01:17:25,751
You can either do the 40 minute
fender live where it takes four

1253
01:17:25,751 --> 01:17:29,531
people to explain what you just did
in like 10 minutes, but they walk

1254
01:17:29,531 --> 01:17:31,001
through some really cool examples.

1255
01:17:31,691 --> 01:17:34,301
The fact that it's like a 40 minute
live stream just about his guitar

1256
01:17:34,301 --> 01:17:38,171
technique, I think starts to scratch
the surface of like how important

1257
01:17:38,171 --> 01:17:39,371
a thing that you're dealing with.

1258
01:17:40,301 --> 01:17:41,081
Cliff: Invite me.

1259
01:17:41,321 --> 01:17:42,161
Invite me,

1260
01:17:43,541 --> 01:17:44,291
Kyle: They seem cool.

1261
01:17:44,651 --> 01:17:48,341
Yeah, I would like sit, I would sit in
that studio and just watch people do that.

1262
01:17:48,341 --> 01:17:48,941
That's cool.

1263
01:17:48,941 --> 01:17:49,601
I learned from it.

1264
01:17:49,751 --> 01:17:50,411
Cliff: I love that.

1265
01:17:50,411 --> 01:17:50,471
Yeah.

1266
01:17:51,191 --> 01:17:54,731
Kyle: Way more important than that though,
is the four minute video from the channel.

1267
01:17:54,731 --> 01:17:59,321
Enter the Jam and the video is titled
Nile Rogers teaches guitar, colon

1268
01:17:59,321 --> 01:18:06,011
picking techniques and he shows chord
phrasings, the chord progression of

1269
01:18:06,011 --> 01:18:09,341
everybody dance, like the whole chords.

1270
01:18:10,181 --> 01:18:13,781
And then he shows the diminished
chords, maybe that's not the right

1271
01:18:13,781 --> 01:18:19,644
word, the selected pieces of the chords,
where he, the way he actually plays

1272
01:18:19,644 --> 01:18:21,744
it with the right hand incorporated.

1273
01:18:22,944 --> 01:18:26,424
And that was the first time I
got a really clear appreciation

1274
01:18:26,424 --> 01:18:32,844
for the balance of complexity of
chord selection and expression.

1275
01:18:33,454 --> 01:18:40,975
Wow, that's not Johnny Cash, EAB, and
then the way he chooses to play it,

1276
01:18:41,005 --> 01:18:42,775
what he chooses to play and not play.

1277
01:18:42,775 --> 01:18:44,125
So you can see a bit of that.

1278
01:18:44,710 --> 01:18:48,370
Right hands go and left hand is
making choices, which is such an

1279
01:18:48,370 --> 01:18:52,139
inversion of the way I would've
ever thought to think about guitar.

1280
01:18:53,129 --> 01:18:56,658
And then he sings the melody of
everybody dance on top of it.

1281
01:18:57,408 --> 01:19:01,308
And just the sparseness of that
allows you to see the contrast.

1282
01:19:01,638 --> 01:19:05,518
So like, if everything Cliff just
went through was a little bit

1283
01:19:05,518 --> 01:19:09,568
technical and you're like, yeah, but
I don't, I've never touched a guitar.

1284
01:19:10,018 --> 01:19:13,258
Help me explain why any of
those things are important.

1285
01:19:13,978 --> 01:19:19,288
Just watching Miles's hands in that
Enter the Jam video is like a Oh wow.

1286
01:19:19,918 --> 01:19:21,148
For, us visual learners.

1287
01:19:21,868 --> 01:19:26,396
So a couple of examples from guitar and a
couple of examples from Bass that I think

1288
01:19:26,876 --> 01:19:30,926
typify the kinds of things to look for,
especially as a lay person to listen for,

1289
01:19:32,062 --> 01:19:38,872
the sort of quintessential end as much as
Lay Freak is, is the Signature Sheik song.

1290
01:19:39,090 --> 01:19:40,080
Rightfully so.

1291
01:19:40,639 --> 01:19:43,099
I Want Your Love, which
was also a big single off.

1292
01:19:43,099 --> 01:19:49,129
This record to me is the
quintessential introductory sheik song.

1293
01:19:49,879 --> 01:19:53,569
I think you and I have a line that
salvo affair is probably the holy shit

1294
01:19:53,569 --> 01:19:58,029
moment for both of us, but like stopping
somebody on the street being like.

1295
01:19:58,629 --> 01:19:59,589
Hey, this is Chic.

1296
01:20:00,159 --> 01:20:03,009
You get the total package of
Chic and I want your love.

1297
01:20:03,459 --> 01:20:05,889
You get Nile's right
hand going on the 16th.

1298
01:20:06,549 --> 01:20:09,631
Really cleanly sitting right
there in the middle nicely.

1299
01:20:10,321 --> 01:20:15,496
You have a Bernard, I think
minor key baseline that's in

1300
01:20:15,496 --> 01:20:18,106
the style of so many hits.

1301
01:20:18,166 --> 01:20:21,256
It's adjacent enough
to like Sister Sludges.

1302
01:20:21,256 --> 01:20:26,049
We are family to where you can
see, like this is the stylistic

1303
01:20:26,172 --> 01:20:28,602
sort of ecosystem that he deals in.

1304
01:20:28,632 --> 01:20:32,068
You know, it, feels like disco in that
way, but it's not the same exact melody.

1305
01:20:33,388 --> 01:20:37,438
So you get like a really quintessential
Bernard Edwards bassline.

1306
01:20:38,158 --> 01:20:42,268
You get terrific female
vocals, both layered and solo

1307
01:20:42,268 --> 01:20:44,158
stuff from Alpha Anderson.

1308
01:20:44,725 --> 01:20:50,528
I think that's a really essential
element of the Chic Mix is the female

1309
01:20:50,528 --> 01:20:57,188
vocals that just do a more sophisticated
thing than male vocals would in disco.

1310
01:20:57,650 --> 01:21:00,230
I mean there, there we could do a
whole two hour thing on like the

1311
01:21:00,230 --> 01:21:05,300
politics of disco and why it was
so easy to malign and marginalize.

1312
01:21:06,290 --> 01:21:09,380
And the short answer is like, so
much of it is because it was led

1313
01:21:09,380 --> 01:21:15,050
by women and queer people and other
marginalized populations, but moment of

1314
01:21:15,050 --> 01:21:17,690
appreciation for the elegance with which.

1315
01:21:18,215 --> 01:21:24,065
Women sort of led in this male dominated
group, and there was like, obviously

1316
01:21:24,065 --> 01:21:29,211
there'd be a strong female feminine
presence, in a thing that's trying

1317
01:21:29,211 --> 01:21:34,031
to go beyond ego and personalities,
you know, that is sort of an

1318
01:21:34,031 --> 01:21:35,981
inherently like, matriarchal thing.

1319
01:21:36,401 --> 01:21:41,252
So they, I think they made cool choices
there, but there's great vocals, both

1320
01:21:41,252 --> 01:21:46,022
the solo stuff and the verses and the,
the layered choral vocals of the chorus.

1321
01:21:46,527 --> 01:21:52,107
There's some really elegant like piano
tickles that get into like almost

1322
01:21:52,107 --> 01:22:00,147
boogie woogie cording, or, or phrasing,
like a little bit barrel house, almost

1323
01:22:00,747 --> 01:22:05,607
like contrast that with like really
sharp all note at the same time.

1324
01:22:05,607 --> 01:22:08,247
Jazz stab things.

1325
01:22:09,022 --> 01:22:10,192
it's more bluesy than that.

1326
01:22:10,638 --> 01:22:14,118
and then a Coutre mall I think you
have to use a French word because

1327
01:22:14,118 --> 01:22:16,218
it is deployed so elegantly.

1328
01:22:16,218 --> 01:22:18,348
And this is obviously a French ass band.

1329
01:22:18,794 --> 01:22:20,924
I mean, there's tubular bells on.

1330
01:22:21,284 --> 01:22:22,094
I want you back.

1331
01:22:22,304 --> 01:22:27,893
Shout out to Jose Rossi for Tubular
bells deployed very, very subtly.

1332
01:22:29,168 --> 01:22:33,998
Not just regular, like Handbells two
very specific Tubular bell sounds and

1333
01:22:33,998 --> 01:22:39,158
then strings to your point about like
the three 20 Switch it Up phenomenon.

1334
01:22:39,158 --> 01:22:41,948
The Beat, the Beat Switch, this
is a big beat Switch album.

1335
01:22:42,938 --> 01:22:50,588
That string section, that middle section
around three-ish minutes is killer.

1336
01:22:51,038 --> 01:22:56,258
It's like breathtaking because it, it
brightens up the palette of the song after

1337
01:22:56,258 --> 01:22:58,208
being sort of a straightforward driver.

1338
01:22:58,628 --> 01:23:02,438
So there's really steady groove that
you get the sheet groove in this thing,

1339
01:23:03,038 --> 01:23:07,886
and then an element of sophistication
and, and change and multitudes, and

1340
01:23:07,886 --> 01:23:13,901
it's like half instrumental, it's a
six minute song or so, and like fully

1341
01:23:13,901 --> 01:23:16,806
three minutes of it has no vocal.

1342
01:23:17,586 --> 01:23:18,546
So it goes on forever.

1343
01:23:18,546 --> 01:23:22,236
It goes up and down and all
around and you know, stacks up.

1344
01:23:22,236 --> 01:23:24,366
Interestingly, it goes
horizontal and vertical.

1345
01:23:25,176 --> 01:23:27,426
It's a great three
dimensions of chic song.

1346
01:23:27,696 --> 01:23:28,776
The total package is there.

1347
01:23:29,392 --> 01:23:34,102
Then the, the sort of like Stretch
Nile where you think about Producer

1348
01:23:34,102 --> 01:23:40,462
Nile, like Hired Gun Nile comes
in in Voir Affair, which is the

1349
01:23:40,552 --> 01:23:42,832
third song on the record, right?

1350
01:23:43,634 --> 01:23:43,854
Cliff: Yep.

1351
01:23:44,611 --> 01:23:48,031
Kyle: and Savoir Affair to me
is where you can audibly hear.

1352
01:23:48,931 --> 01:23:51,241
Interesting chord phrasings.

1353
01:23:51,845 --> 01:24:00,522
And then in the lead lines, you hear cool
bent, single notes, just like cool, weird,

1354
01:24:00,972 --> 01:24:05,692
jazzy, almost city pop stuff happening.

1355
01:24:06,658 --> 01:24:07,258
What's his face?

1356
01:24:07,258 --> 01:24:08,128
Taaka?

1357
01:24:09,028 --> 01:24:12,928
Um, Mai Taaka is having this big moment
where he like is touring and playing

1358
01:24:12,928 --> 01:24:14,968
the surfboard guitar and whatever.

1359
01:24:15,538 --> 01:24:21,148
So if you like city pop, come
back home to Chic and if you like

1360
01:24:21,148 --> 01:24:25,408
Swar affairs specifically, maybe
go explore Japanese city pop.

1361
01:24:25,498 --> 01:24:29,586
'cause there is a, there's an
international, cosmopolitan

1362
01:24:29,616 --> 01:24:31,326
elegance to Sav warfare.

1363
01:24:31,326 --> 01:24:35,354
And a lot of that I think is because
of the guitar choices that Nile makes.

1364
01:24:35,713 --> 01:24:39,403
And then on the bass front,
my God, is this a bass record?

1365
01:24:39,463 --> 01:24:43,303
This is the bass record to end all
base records, man, like up there

1366
01:24:43,303 --> 01:24:49,379
with a Bootsy p Funk type situation
or the meters or there's no base

1367
01:24:49,379 --> 01:24:52,799
record that sounds quite like this
base record from Bernard Edwards.

1368
01:24:53,500 --> 01:24:57,910
to me, the number one, I'd be interested
for your top base line, base track to

1369
01:24:57,910 --> 01:25:01,960
me, the number one on this is Happy
Man, where he is walking it up and down.

1370
01:25:05,725 --> 01:25:07,015
The whole time.

1371
01:25:07,285 --> 01:25:09,100
It's just a delight.

1372
01:25:09,490 --> 01:25:12,550
It's a cornucopia of flavors
and notes that he's doing.

1373
01:25:13,300 --> 01:25:16,930
It's very active, but
it's never overly naughty.

1374
01:25:17,410 --> 01:25:23,437
It just, texturally feels so good,
the whole song and it's tight.

1375
01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:26,760
he never misses like he always on beat.

1376
01:25:27,605 --> 01:25:31,325
and then Funny Bone, which I
have a soft spot for after being

1377
01:25:31,325 --> 01:25:34,179
put on by old friend Monica.

1378
01:25:35,384 --> 01:25:37,154
that's where you really
get the funk, the like,

1379
01:25:41,654 --> 01:25:47,954
um, where there's the push pull,
not quite slap, but sort of in that,

1380
01:25:48,901 --> 01:25:52,081
sly is that Larry Stewart vein.

1381
01:25:53,491 --> 01:25:58,531
And then on Atlas I am Free is
where you get a little bit Bernard

1382
01:25:58,531 --> 01:26:06,289
Edwards contrast of the, like, almost
Jocko, higher on the fretboard, more

1383
01:26:06,289 --> 01:26:12,133
melodic than textural, kind of a
lead instrument type of situation.

1384
01:26:12,613 --> 01:26:16,933
So he, Bernard has versatility
on this thing as well.

1385
01:26:17,503 --> 01:26:20,470
And there's all sorts of other
moments, the saxophone on.

1386
01:26:20,470 --> 01:26:21,940
Sometimes you win that.

1387
01:26:21,940 --> 01:26:24,580
That's like the crazy, another
crazy three minute moment.

1388
01:26:25,150 --> 01:26:28,810
There's like little church
chords on the piano.

1389
01:26:28,810 --> 01:26:34,000
There's electric piano and some
roads buried in this thing.

1390
01:26:34,630 --> 01:26:37,180
You can almost take Tony
Thompson for granted the whole

1391
01:26:37,180 --> 01:26:40,000
record in the 120 BPM pocket.

1392
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:42,580
And like if I had one complaint about
the production of this record, it's

1393
01:26:42,580 --> 01:26:45,820
that the drums don't hit hard enough.

1394
01:26:45,850 --> 01:26:49,930
But like there's so much other stuff
happening that it's very gentlemanly

1395
01:26:49,930 --> 01:26:54,160
of Tony Thompson to just keep
the beat and always make it work.

1396
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:59,143
You gotta work kind of hard to really
concentrate in on the drums ' cause

1397
01:26:59,203 --> 01:27:02,233
there's so much rhythmic work
happening on the other instruments.

1398
01:27:02,233 --> 01:27:06,090
But like, shout out to Tony
Thompson and then there's, I'm in

1399
01:27:06,090 --> 01:27:10,020
the Cliff camp where I like don't
care about the vocals on this.

1400
01:27:10,020 --> 01:27:14,040
Most of the time it like
encourages you to participate.

1401
01:27:14,280 --> 01:27:17,700
Feels like the function of
the vocals a lot of the time.

1402
01:27:17,700 --> 01:27:23,850
But there are moments like on
Happy Man, which is like a top

1403
01:27:23,850 --> 01:27:25,290
three on this record for me.

1404
01:27:25,740 --> 01:27:32,280
When they do home and harmonize on
the bent note and that is a super

1405
01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:35,199
sick move on the standalone chorus.

1406
01:27:35,199 --> 01:27:37,359
I think it's the only thing
that they harmonize like that.

1407
01:27:37,924 --> 01:27:38,674
Cool.

1408
01:27:39,094 --> 01:27:39,814
Just like.

1409
01:27:39,937 --> 01:27:41,647
That's a move that's got voir affair.

1410
01:27:41,887 --> 01:27:46,241
Voir affair is really like the
essence of this record, not just as

1411
01:27:46,241 --> 01:27:47,921
a song, but the philosophy of it.

1412
01:27:47,921 --> 01:27:51,753
It's just this is a swaggy
record and it comes out in little

1413
01:27:52,011 --> 01:27:54,201
sophisticated touches like that.

1414
01:27:54,737 --> 01:27:59,407
Are there any other little moments
that delighted you and don't forget

1415
01:27:59,407 --> 01:28:00,757
to answer the baseline question.

1416
01:28:01,884 --> 01:28:02,724
Cliff: I haven't forgotten.

1417
01:28:02,964 --> 01:28:07,294
It's definitely I want your
Love It is itself an earworm.

1418
01:28:08,434 --> 01:28:10,594
I'm singing the baseline all the time.

1419
01:28:14,014 --> 01:28:19,264
It rules also inside of that song,
another moment I mentioned like about

1420
01:28:19,264 --> 01:28:24,304
three minutes and 20 seconds being
like an oddly recurring timestamp.

1421
01:28:24,574 --> 01:28:31,984
So there's this like weird horn section
that comes out of nowhere in that moment

1422
01:28:32,524 --> 01:28:39,814
and melodically does something surprising
and it's fun because once again, it's

1423
01:28:39,814 --> 01:28:45,394
one of those, okay, we've determined it's
definitely intentional moments at specific

1424
01:28:45,664 --> 01:28:48,814
like time sequences throughout the music.

1425
01:28:49,084 --> 01:28:51,934
They know that they're doing something
a little unexpected or unusual or

1426
01:28:51,934 --> 01:28:56,288
whatever, but it does such a good
job of throwing you slightly off

1427
01:28:56,288 --> 01:29:01,208
balance at exactly the point where
you might go, all right, I got it.

1428
01:29:03,578 --> 01:29:04,178
All right, I get it.

1429
01:29:04,238 --> 01:29:05,168
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it.

1430
01:29:05,198 --> 01:29:06,698
And then it's like, wait a minute.

1431
01:29:06,878 --> 01:29:11,978
The, we haven't even crested what
we can do with this riff yet.

1432
01:29:12,038 --> 01:29:14,408
Like you're not even
close to done dancing.

1433
01:29:14,678 --> 01:29:17,888
We have a lot more to play and we have
a lot more ideas that we haven't even

1434
01:29:17,888 --> 01:29:24,428
introduced, and that draws out the
power of a baseline man when it's that

1435
01:29:24,428 --> 01:29:30,018
groovy and it can go on and on like
that and be played off of so well.

1436
01:29:30,343 --> 01:29:31,603
It's truly incredible.

1437
01:29:31,986 --> 01:29:36,396
I'd also add, before I make my way back
to the Swar Fair, just really quickly,

1438
01:29:37,356 --> 01:29:43,866
I would say at last I am free, grew on
me so much more than I ever expected.

1439
01:29:44,406 --> 01:29:48,846
This church ass song
sounded annoying to me.

1440
01:29:48,906 --> 01:29:53,736
Probably my least favorite thing
when I was initially listening to it.

1441
01:29:55,116 --> 01:29:58,116
And now it's one of my favorites.

1442
01:29:58,626 --> 01:29:59,526
It's a hook.

1443
01:29:59,736 --> 01:30:01,176
I sing it all the time.

1444
01:30:01,536 --> 01:30:07,229
And something about how at the very
end of that song, it's just kind of

1445
01:30:07,229 --> 01:30:10,559
like basic piano setting, number one.

1446
01:30:11,909 --> 01:30:13,439
And they just kind of play it out.

1447
01:30:13,919 --> 01:30:18,299
I'm like, it's such an undramatic
way to finish the song that

1448
01:30:18,299 --> 01:30:21,959
otherwise kind of felt sweeping
and dramatic the entire time.

1449
01:30:22,019 --> 01:30:28,186
And balance of like some sort of musical
lightheartedness is so endearing to

1450
01:30:28,186 --> 01:30:32,436
me on this record and never expected
to like those aspects so much.

1451
01:30:32,591 --> 01:30:37,491
Kyle: is such an interesting song
on the record because you know, if

1452
01:30:37,491 --> 01:30:41,451
you're Atlantic Records, you want
Sheik to give you eight le freaks,

1453
01:30:41,841 --> 01:30:42,231
Right.

1454
01:30:42,501 --> 01:30:43,401
You just want.

1455
01:30:44,406 --> 01:30:47,554
Keep 'em in the club
for the full 45 minutes.

1456
01:30:47,924 --> 01:30:51,759
and that's a like go to the
bathroom, go get a drink type song.

1457
01:30:52,314 --> 01:30:52,524
Cliff: Yeah.

1458
01:30:53,589 --> 01:30:57,073
Kyle: But the really interesting
thing about that song to me is it's

1459
01:30:57,163 --> 01:31:02,031
got a whole other set of chords
after you think it should resolve.

1460
01:31:02,326 --> 01:31:08,165
Like they play four or six or eight
things and then they play four more and

1461
01:31:08,165 --> 01:31:09,825
you're like, well hold on start over.

1462
01:31:09,915 --> 01:31:11,055
You're using too many.

1463
01:31:11,625 --> 01:31:14,205
But it works.

1464
01:31:14,445 --> 01:31:17,535
It's a smart almost proggy thing.

1465
01:31:17,535 --> 01:31:20,475
And then they use it in like,
to your point, a church way.

1466
01:31:21,225 --> 01:31:27,857
And then once they introduce that
pattern a couple of times, then Nile

1467
01:31:27,857 --> 01:31:33,226
starts arpeggiating out those chords
and you get some of that nice and

1468
01:31:33,886 --> 01:31:36,616
really pretty clean guitar tone.

1469
01:31:38,116 --> 01:31:45,072
That song reminds me a little, just a
little of another song that you and I

1470
01:31:45,072 --> 01:31:49,882
didn't expect to, like when we listened
to the record and that's Mermaid off

1471
01:31:49,882 --> 01:31:58,031
of Love Deluxe, where we, we were
like, what is this smooth jazz B 98.5?

1472
01:31:58,031 --> 01:31:58,511
Shit.

1473
01:31:59,026 --> 01:32:00,646
But it's so great and it works.

1474
01:32:00,646 --> 01:32:02,506
And I think it's the same thing.

1475
01:32:02,506 --> 01:32:07,966
It's weird chords and dreamlike state.

1476
01:32:08,746 --> 01:32:12,929
I guess it's a bit cocteau twins
in that way too, where you're like,

1477
01:32:12,929 --> 01:32:14,159
it all feels a little strange.

1478
01:32:14,159 --> 01:32:18,809
It all feels like five degrees off
from where maybe should be, but it's

1479
01:32:18,809 --> 01:32:22,769
because they're introducing something
really novel and they commit to

1480
01:32:22,769 --> 01:32:23,999
it and and they do it really well.

1481
01:32:24,691 --> 01:32:24,991
Cliff: Yep.

1482
01:32:25,231 --> 01:32:29,431
And Long, that's the longest song
on the record with like the most

1483
01:32:29,431 --> 01:32:33,031
minimum amount of lyrics being
repeated over and over again.

1484
01:32:33,631 --> 01:32:38,311
But even, even lyrically, that song's
interesting because the AtLast I

1485
01:32:38,311 --> 01:32:44,185
Am Free Line is the only positive
line in the song and it keeps you

1486
01:32:44,185 --> 01:32:47,905
feeling like it's a triumphant song,
which is why I've come to like so

1487
01:32:47,905 --> 01:32:49,945
much of the church ass music of it.

1488
01:32:50,365 --> 01:32:53,635
'cause like it sounds like a vamp that
you're doing while we're taking the

1489
01:32:53,635 --> 01:32:59,211
offering sometimes, it's not actually
an encouraging or aspirational message.

1490
01:32:59,211 --> 01:33:02,751
It's sort of like, I'm fucking
tired done with this shit.

1491
01:33:03,651 --> 01:33:06,055
And so like that swirl of things.

1492
01:33:06,294 --> 01:33:07,884
Fascinating to hide on this

1493
01:33:08,049 --> 01:33:12,189
Kyle: And that song kind of moves
the least of all of the songs.

1494
01:33:12,219 --> 01:33:16,419
I mean, I know it's got that sort
of middle part where it punches up.

1495
01:33:16,509 --> 01:33:18,849
It feels sort of like a key change.

1496
01:33:19,599 --> 01:33:20,259
But not real.

1497
01:33:20,259 --> 01:33:22,389
Like she takes the vocals up some.

1498
01:33:22,865 --> 01:33:26,855
but yeah, it sort of swirls
around the same thing, which makes

1499
01:33:26,855 --> 01:33:28,874
it an outlier on this record.

1500
01:33:29,399 --> 01:33:34,022
You know, that's full of songs with
lots of really distinctive ideas keep

1501
01:33:34,022 --> 01:33:35,492
things moving and moving and moving.

1502
01:33:35,912 --> 01:33:39,752
So to swirl around and stasis
for a bit is, is an interesting

1503
01:33:39,752 --> 01:33:41,012
but probably necessary move.

1504
01:33:41,012 --> 01:33:45,056
The record probably wouldn't repeat
all as well without a little bit

1505
01:33:45,056 --> 01:33:46,861
of a pallet cleanser like that.

1506
01:33:47,452 --> 01:33:47,932
Cliff: Totally.

1507
01:33:48,281 --> 01:33:53,471
So just to point at it directly
though, please, please go back and

1508
01:33:53,471 --> 01:33:56,831
listen to So War On Purpose actively.

1509
01:33:57,221 --> 01:34:02,621
If there is any inkling of interest in any
of the Guitar Shed that we talked about,

1510
01:34:02,741 --> 01:34:06,191
please, please listen to this composition.

1511
01:34:06,491 --> 01:34:10,871
Not only are we saying it's
incredible, but like Nile talks about

1512
01:34:10,871 --> 01:34:15,611
it as one of his best compositional
accomplishments on an instrument.

1513
01:34:16,121 --> 01:34:26,308
And if you are curious about what it means
to use phrasing as an instrument and tell

1514
01:34:26,308 --> 01:34:31,419
a story with a guitar, it is straight
up some of the best guitar playing I

1515
01:34:31,419 --> 01:34:34,119
am aware of on an intentional song.

1516
01:34:34,749 --> 01:34:39,849
Anywhere on planet Earth, it's
incredibly specifically composed.

1517
01:34:39,879 --> 01:34:41,169
It's interesting.

1518
01:34:41,709 --> 01:34:45,969
And if you need to go to a specific point,
because you know, we can't just literally

1519
01:34:45,969 --> 01:34:50,619
play the entire song in the middle of
this podcast, like around two minutes

1520
01:34:50,619 --> 01:34:59,139
and 13 seconds in, he starts running on
the guitar in a way that it is a payoff

1521
01:34:59,259 --> 01:35:01,929
from what you've listened to so far.

1522
01:35:02,319 --> 01:35:07,719
But it, once again, sort of like the,
like surprising horns and noises and stuff

1523
01:35:07,719 --> 01:35:12,009
that's come in at that moment, he goes,
actually, let's go over here a little bit.

1524
01:35:12,759 --> 01:35:17,919
And if you allow yourself to listen to it,
you don't have to understand it musically

1525
01:35:18,159 --> 01:35:23,047
to feel him going, come over here, we're
gonna use a slightly different rhythm

1526
01:35:23,137 --> 01:35:27,307
now and a different way of interacting
with this melody over and over again.

1527
01:35:27,907 --> 01:35:33,697
And so like, it reminds me of
like famous guitar songs, like

1528
01:35:33,787 --> 01:35:34,987
since I've Been Loving You.

1529
01:35:35,047 --> 01:35:39,338
So there's the Zeppelin, Bing go-kart,
like songs where the guitar is talking

1530
01:35:39,608 --> 01:35:42,158
and you are listening to it for a while.

1531
01:35:42,563 --> 01:35:47,213
but also it reminded me at the same time
then speaking of voodoo of Spanish joint,

1532
01:35:48,588 --> 01:35:49,583
Kyle: oh yeah.

1533
01:35:49,793 --> 01:35:50,513
Cliff: shit.

1534
01:35:50,573 --> 01:35:52,253
Oh, they're killing it.

1535
01:35:52,283 --> 01:35:52,733
Okay.

1536
01:35:52,973 --> 01:35:57,203
Like it has that vibe to
me of like, kind of like

1537
01:35:57,203 --> 01:35:58,493
all the studio musicians.

1538
01:35:58,643 --> 01:35:59,303
Kyle: My God.

1539
01:35:59,303 --> 01:35:59,693
Yeah.

1540
01:35:59,993 --> 01:36:00,413
Cliff: Yeah.

1541
01:36:00,563 --> 01:36:04,323
but like also that vibe though of
like, there's no elitism, but you

1542
01:36:04,323 --> 01:36:07,983
can almost feel all the studio
musicians dead panning the camera.

1543
01:36:07,983 --> 01:36:10,353
Like, don't you fucking
forget who you're talking to?

1544
01:36:11,108 --> 01:36:13,418
We got one of these and
we put it on the record.

1545
01:36:13,628 --> 01:36:18,638
And Swar fair is, to your point number
three, it's just like, put that thing

1546
01:36:18,638 --> 01:36:20,708
up there right after two singles.

1547
01:36:21,138 --> 01:36:25,311
So just not just contextually a
great song, but truly like, if I

1548
01:36:25,311 --> 01:36:29,331
were teaching a course on guitar,
this song would probably be in there.

1549
01:36:29,421 --> 01:36:32,421
Kyle: The way that you are
talking about it as a guitar song

1550
01:36:32,601 --> 01:36:33,771
makes me think of Little Wing.

1551
01:36:34,098 --> 01:36:36,590
if I were teaching a course on
guitar, that'd be another one

1552
01:36:36,590 --> 01:36:39,710
that it's like composition feel.

1553
01:36:40,460 --> 01:36:43,790
All of that comes together in
like a perfect little nugget.

1554
01:36:44,660 --> 01:36:50,930
And I'd contrast that with the song
Maggot Brain, where like feel takes

1555
01:36:50,930 --> 01:36:53,840
over and it's a big spacious thing.

1556
01:36:54,530 --> 01:36:56,900
Little Wing and Swar affair.

1557
01:36:56,900 --> 01:37:00,710
There's a tight compositional
journey that they stay within.

1558
01:37:00,710 --> 01:37:07,400
That's part cord work, part lead lines,
uh, and they go in and out of them.

1559
01:37:07,772 --> 01:37:10,712
there's a technical
competency element as well.

1560
01:37:11,844 --> 01:37:18,804
and that's a great, if you want
like exact points of the contrast of

1561
01:37:18,936 --> 01:37:22,238
feel versus technicality stuff that
you're talking about, that spectrum

1562
01:37:22,238 --> 01:37:27,938
of Hendricks and Paige versus a
Nile Rogers or like a jazz player.

1563
01:37:28,268 --> 01:37:33,278
Those two songs would like typify
the same thing in those two styles.

1564
01:37:33,888 --> 01:37:34,108
Cliff: Yep.

1565
01:37:34,883 --> 01:37:36,203
Man, what a fun idea.

1566
01:37:36,233 --> 01:37:36,713
Yes.

1567
01:37:37,103 --> 01:37:38,993
Those two songs on a spectrum.

1568
01:37:38,993 --> 01:37:43,253
Then maybe since I've been loving you on
one side and John Coltrane's Giant Steps

1569
01:37:43,253 --> 01:37:49,845
on the other, like that sort of wild
intentionality in both cases, but with

1570
01:37:49,845 --> 01:37:52,065
completely different feels and outcomes.

1571
01:37:52,515 --> 01:37:56,325
So I find myself at the end of
plenty of talking about this

1572
01:37:56,325 --> 01:38:00,285
record staring at a million other
things I'd like to talk about.

1573
01:38:00,555 --> 01:38:04,365
So what I could do instead I
think, is maybe use the, what

1574
01:38:04,365 --> 01:38:08,055
should we listen to next as an
avenue for at least one of those.

1575
01:38:08,523 --> 01:38:12,063
so that I don't become
insufferable to myself or others.

1576
01:38:13,692 --> 01:38:15,042
Kyle: I was born in that darkness,

1577
01:38:17,544 --> 01:38:21,864
of me being insufferable, not you
being insufferable to me to be clear.

1578
01:38:22,719 --> 01:38:23,049
Yeah.

1579
01:38:23,079 --> 01:38:25,359
Uh, who do you want to

1580
01:38:25,419 --> 01:38:26,169
Cliff: You merely

1581
01:38:32,619 --> 01:38:34,299
Kyle: You can hit pause at any time.

1582
01:38:34,359 --> 01:38:35,739
I'm stuck in this brain.

1583
01:38:37,612 --> 01:38:39,172
Cliff: So if that's an okay prompt.

1584
01:38:39,442 --> 01:38:43,582
I think what I could do is touch
on really quickly a few things

1585
01:38:43,582 --> 01:38:47,562
I've enjoyed from here, which is
the Niles Roger or Nile Rogers.

1586
01:38:47,592 --> 01:38:49,662
It will always be hard to not say Nile

1587
01:38:49,662 --> 01:38:50,142
Kyle: I know.

1588
01:38:50,592 --> 01:38:54,672
Oh, and especially when you start
doing not, and I, Ellie apostrophe

1589
01:38:54,672 --> 01:38:58,962
s you do a few of those and then you
start pluralizing all over the place.

1590
01:38:59,487 --> 01:38:59,787
Cliff: You know

1591
01:39:00,552 --> 01:39:05,922
Kyle: Hopefully we've paid enough respect
at this point that we can occasionally

1592
01:39:06,042 --> 01:39:07,842
biff it in the midst of our excitement.

1593
01:39:08,646 --> 01:39:08,986
Cliff: for sure.

1594
01:39:09,304 --> 01:39:16,354
Following his then prolific production
career is one of a thousand things

1595
01:39:16,354 --> 01:39:20,884
we could, should, maybe would've
said in this podcast episode

1596
01:39:21,229 --> 01:39:25,729
Kyle: You can totally do the, what was
that, the Neptunes playlist that we made?

1597
01:39:25,729 --> 01:39:30,889
You could totally just find a, like Nile
Rogers on the beat playlist and it would

1598
01:39:30,889 --> 01:39:36,289
last and honestly, sight unseen, you could
put it on and it would rip for a party.

1599
01:39:37,414 --> 01:39:38,644
Cliff: Yeah, totally.

1600
01:39:39,544 --> 01:39:39,994
Totally.

1601
01:39:39,999 --> 01:39:44,473
And there is a playlist I've found pretty
quickly on Spotify that covers some

1602
01:39:44,473 --> 01:39:46,573
pretty good ones, um, from production.

1603
01:39:46,723 --> 01:39:51,383
Now, one thing to mention before I say
the explicit production bits in Case

1604
01:39:51,383 --> 01:39:55,013
your brain didn't already know this or
didn't put these pieces together, like

1605
01:39:55,043 --> 01:39:58,673
just, you can go listen to Get Lucky by
Daft Punk now, and now you know who's

1606
01:39:58,673 --> 01:40:00,653
playing guitar, even if you didn't before.

1607
01:40:01,103 --> 01:40:01,823
Now you get it.

1608
01:40:02,333 --> 01:40:03,533
Now you hear it.

1609
01:40:03,643 --> 01:40:04,663
It's the same.

1610
01:40:04,753 --> 01:40:09,283
And that there's a reason why they locked
him in for that and why a lot of those

1611
01:40:09,283 --> 01:40:10,633
songs are really cool on that record.

1612
01:40:11,059 --> 01:40:13,189
you know, that's him
literally playing okay.

1613
01:40:13,489 --> 01:40:16,695
But it's hard to even give
a harbor tour of this.

1614
01:40:16,695 --> 01:40:21,105
But like for instance, uh, his
compositional skills came out to

1615
01:40:21,105 --> 01:40:25,846
play with he made the Soul Glow
jingle from Coming to America.

1616
01:40:26,176 --> 01:40:31,197
That's him He did a bunch of
really cool random shit like that.

1617
01:40:31,557 --> 01:40:35,997
But then he also went on to, right,
you, you mentioned earlier, uh,

1618
01:40:35,997 --> 01:40:38,187
revitalization of David, David Bowie.

1619
01:40:38,517 --> 01:40:40,857
So he produced Let's Dance by David Bowie.

1620
01:40:41,037 --> 01:40:42,507
Madonna's like a Virgin.

1621
01:40:42,907 --> 01:40:46,296
And then some, if you feel like
disco is locked in time, this

1622
01:40:46,296 --> 01:40:48,546
phrase will be too Duran Duran.

1623
01:40:49,296 --> 01:40:52,868
Uh, he did a lot of work with them
in nx s and stuff too, which all

1624
01:40:52,868 --> 01:40:54,758
very cool, especially in its moment.

1625
01:40:55,118 --> 01:41:01,208
And like, there is just so much that's
been produced by, influenced by, uh,

1626
01:41:01,208 --> 01:41:04,868
he contributed to, he played on someone
else he knew, played on whatever,

1627
01:41:05,257 --> 01:41:11,077
was all a part of or related to his
production and compositional skills

1628
01:41:11,077 --> 01:41:16,127
that he was as he would go on after
sheik's existence and everything else.

1629
01:41:16,517 --> 01:41:21,377
and so, I'm specifically recommending
this avenue because I wouldn't have

1630
01:41:21,377 --> 01:41:26,587
thought myself to recommend that
avenue that's gonna lead you to, a

1631
01:41:26,587 --> 01:41:30,307
whole bunch of pop songs, some of
which you'll be very familiar with.

1632
01:41:30,307 --> 01:41:33,157
That's one of my least
favorite moves in this case.

1633
01:41:33,217 --> 01:41:33,907
It's fun.

1634
01:41:34,328 --> 01:41:39,117
it's, to me, even better or better
in my way, um, than the sort of

1635
01:41:39,237 --> 01:41:43,017
Neptunes, let me listen to the
way that they produce music thing.

1636
01:41:43,377 --> 01:41:48,747
This is, this becomes like a let's
go across decades and through time

1637
01:41:48,747 --> 01:41:53,137
to see what this dude decided to
put his finger on the scale for and

1638
01:41:53,137 --> 01:41:56,437
then go appreciate those individual
songs and how intertwined they are.

1639
01:41:56,867 --> 01:42:01,249
And I've just, I think I've enjoyed
the fact that, you know, we, me

1640
01:42:01,249 --> 01:42:05,989
and you were born a few years
after sheik's existence basically.

1641
01:42:06,259 --> 01:42:11,569
And so the Nile Rogers
production era is ish my life.

1642
01:42:11,929 --> 01:42:13,909
So I, I'll remember a lot of it.

1643
01:42:13,909 --> 01:42:14,809
It's interesting.

1644
01:42:14,809 --> 01:42:16,369
The progression makes sense to me.

1645
01:42:16,709 --> 01:42:20,519
And so I found that to be like an,
a surprisingly interesting way to

1646
01:42:20,519 --> 01:42:23,369
explore what I got outta Sheik.

1647
01:42:23,789 --> 01:42:29,009
And yes, I personally am over-indexing
on Nile Rogers, the guitarist.

1648
01:42:29,159 --> 01:42:31,229
I'm sorry, I'm fascinated.

1649
01:42:31,709 --> 01:42:38,189
I'm not tired of thinking about him or
his impact after doing it for months now.

1650
01:42:38,510 --> 01:42:44,630
Kyle: One, I think anyone that
listens to this probably also

1651
01:42:44,630 --> 01:42:48,800
really likes guitar music and has
some orientation to guitar music.

1652
01:42:49,250 --> 01:42:53,810
And this is a specific and different
flavor than the kind of guitar

1653
01:42:53,810 --> 01:42:55,490
work that we normally go for.

1654
01:42:55,703 --> 01:43:01,253
That's a very satisfying world unto
itself for a really, really, really

1655
01:43:01,253 --> 01:43:04,613
long time with a huge amount of breath.

1656
01:43:05,093 --> 01:43:07,999
So, don't think there's any need to apolo.

1657
01:43:08,269 --> 01:43:14,019
Nobody who likes music is going to need
you to apologize for being like, I'm

1658
01:43:14,019 --> 01:43:19,194
really into Nile Rogers and everything
that he's done, it could do a lot worse.

1659
01:43:20,396 --> 01:43:21,471
Cliff: No, that's true.

1660
01:43:21,644 --> 01:43:22,918
Kyle: That's a great hole.

1661
01:43:23,288 --> 01:43:24,678
Were there any others for you?

1662
01:43:25,535 --> 01:43:28,925
Cliff: I will share the other
rabbit hole that I looked at, but

1663
01:43:28,925 --> 01:43:31,475
have not yet done anything with.

1664
01:43:32,315 --> 01:43:33,755
We mentioned it briefly earlier.

1665
01:43:33,755 --> 01:43:35,825
It's hilarious that this
became like a, oops.

1666
01:43:35,825 --> 01:43:38,675
We should make sure and say
that on the episode thing.

1667
01:43:39,186 --> 01:43:42,666
being a little facetious, they more
or less started hip hop with good

1668
01:43:42,666 --> 01:43:46,441
times, uh, arguably literally did.

1669
01:43:46,721 --> 01:43:51,041
And that speaks to so much of what
we've talked about, including the like

1670
01:43:51,101 --> 01:43:56,661
base expertise of Bernard Edwards and
the grooviness of the whole thing.

1671
01:43:56,661 --> 01:44:02,074
Like there's a reason why an entire
genre of music was launched on, now

1672
01:44:02,074 --> 01:44:07,094
this dude plays guitar or bass and
then you're not just gonna hear it in,

1673
01:44:07,604 --> 01:44:08,984
you know, sugar Hill Gang or whatever.

1674
01:44:08,984 --> 01:44:11,564
Like, you're also gonna hear it
in another one Bites the Dust.

1675
01:44:11,834 --> 01:44:17,264
'cause that is effectively an intentional
interpolation of his style of playing.

1676
01:44:17,553 --> 01:44:23,728
and okay, now we're going further, but
point in all that being like the genesis

1677
01:44:23,728 --> 01:44:29,578
of a launching what became hip hop in a
moment where there are a million things

1678
01:44:29,578 --> 01:44:33,808
to say here, but one is the strength
of the bass, guitar, and rhythm and

1679
01:44:33,808 --> 01:44:35,788
what that means and what it can create.

1680
01:44:36,298 --> 01:44:39,778
But I think, you know, a another
thing we could have gone into here

1681
01:44:39,958 --> 01:44:44,158
as a moment in time, but chose to
reference and drive by instead a bit

1682
01:44:44,278 --> 01:44:52,115
is like  Disco ended more or less for
cultural kind of backlash ish reasons.

1683
01:44:52,385 --> 01:44:54,935
Again, we've talked about this on other
episodes before, a little bit more

1684
01:44:54,935 --> 01:44:58,982
in depth, you know, for many people,
especially who were in disco bands, they

1685
01:44:58,982 --> 01:45:03,692
experienced this more or less as actual
racism because in a lot of time, uh, in a

1686
01:45:03,692 --> 01:45:06,302
lot of ways, that's where that came from.

1687
01:45:07,322 --> 01:45:13,082
That said, I am really delighted
by the idea that people wanted to

1688
01:45:13,082 --> 01:45:19,352
kill disco for even partially bad
reasons, and inadvertently created

1689
01:45:19,442 --> 01:45:21,872
hip hop and dance music instead.

1690
01:45:22,232 --> 01:45:24,272
Good fucking job, man.

1691
01:45:24,662 --> 01:45:26,882
Like you made Kendrick possible.

1692
01:45:26,912 --> 01:45:27,632
Thank you.

1693
01:45:28,262 --> 01:45:29,162
Great work.

1694
01:45:29,552 --> 01:45:33,212
Thanks for blowing up, literally
those disco records at a fucking

1695
01:45:33,212 --> 01:45:35,822
baseball stadium and causing a panic.

1696
01:45:36,122 --> 01:45:39,812
So that, and now we have NA's Illmatic.

1697
01:45:39,842 --> 01:45:40,442
Thank you.

1698
01:45:40,952 --> 01:45:45,452
Kyle: playing at the Super Bowl on
a similar field, eat shit nerds.

1699
01:45:46,004 --> 01:45:46,244
Cliff: It

1700
01:45:46,784 --> 01:45:50,624
Kyle: Carleigh has a shirt
that says Disco doesn't suck.

1701
01:45:50,624 --> 01:45:51,884
You just can't dance.

1702
01:45:53,174 --> 01:45:54,854
And I think about it all the time,

1703
01:45:55,250 --> 01:45:55,670
Cliff: that's so

1704
01:45:56,000 --> 01:45:57,950
Kyle: you wouldn't wanna
blow up disco records if you

1705
01:45:57,950 --> 01:45:59,660
weren't a no dancing ass bitch.

1706
01:46:03,950 --> 01:46:05,360
Cliff: N-D-A-B-I call them.

1707
01:46:05,870 --> 01:46:06,050
Yep.

1708
01:46:08,183 --> 01:46:08,578
A two.

1709
01:46:09,045 --> 01:46:11,925
Kyle: think there are two
strains for me on this.

1710
01:46:12,421 --> 01:46:20,502
One is revisiting Cornerstone Artist
and two is instrument rabbit holes.

1711
01:46:21,672 --> 01:46:23,022
So probably very similar

1712
01:46:23,538 --> 01:46:28,638
when you're chasing the rabbit, like
people like us are like, certainly for

1713
01:46:28,638 --> 01:46:33,048
me, the tendency is always to go out
and find more and more and more artists

1714
01:46:33,257 --> 01:46:38,331
rather than going deep on one artist
that you already feel like you should

1715
01:46:38,331 --> 01:46:42,951
know, you know, and have grown up, should
have grown up with that sort of thing.

1716
01:46:42,951 --> 01:46:44,811
And that gets harder and
harder as you get older.

1717
01:46:45,411 --> 01:46:48,591
Like if you missed them, it kind of feels
like you missed them forever sometimes.

1718
01:46:49,191 --> 01:46:52,371
But one of the really fun things
about getting older is you can just

1719
01:46:52,371 --> 01:46:55,341
decide, I'm only sort of into prints.

1720
01:46:56,001 --> 01:46:58,941
I'm gonna make Prince my
whole personality for a year.

1721
01:46:59,301 --> 01:47:04,671
And you find the like 84 tour bootlegs
and that's like all you listen to,

1722
01:47:04,671 --> 01:47:07,911
you load it up onto a burnt CD and
drive around in your car and just

1723
01:47:07,911 --> 01:47:10,071
listen to very obscure princes.

1724
01:47:10,491 --> 01:47:14,931
And that's sort of top of mind for
me because the 10th anniversary

1725
01:47:14,931 --> 01:47:16,521
of Prince's death just happened.

1726
01:47:16,581 --> 01:47:22,191
And so people were surfacing really
interesting DJ mixes of obscure stuff and

1727
01:47:22,191 --> 01:47:25,161
he's got more material than any human.

1728
01:47:25,401 --> 01:47:31,131
Like you could be a Prince scholar
as your job and still barely scratch

1729
01:47:31,131 --> 01:47:35,131
the surface or fail to contextualize
it for the vast majority of people.

1730
01:47:35,581 --> 01:47:39,571
Questlove functions as one of
pop culture's greatest Prince

1731
01:47:39,571 --> 01:47:42,871
Scholars at large and he did a
playlist of 200 Prince songs.

1732
01:47:43,490 --> 01:47:47,876
So that's the other thing about like some
of these big artists is it's really easy

1733
01:47:47,876 --> 01:47:53,396
to be intimidated by the great wall of
work and the impossibility of climbing it.

1734
01:47:53,396 --> 01:47:56,996
And that's why entry points, that's
why we still love this album format.

1735
01:47:56,996 --> 01:48:03,284
Like here's one little nuclear
digestible unit of art to interact with.

1736
01:48:03,674 --> 01:48:04,514
Start here.

1737
01:48:04,574 --> 01:48:09,284
Might be right or wrong, but we've gotten
really psyched about it and here it is for

1738
01:48:09,284 --> 01:48:10,994
you and you can go anywhere from there.

1739
01:48:11,915 --> 01:48:18,695
Sheik is a good reminder to just like pick
one of those big artists and go for it

1740
01:48:19,145 --> 01:48:23,825
and just like be all about them or if you
loved them a long time ago to rediscover

1741
01:48:23,825 --> 01:48:27,965
them and interact with all the new things
you've learned about music in life.

1742
01:48:28,745 --> 01:48:33,425
And so the handful that have come up a
lot in this podcast, but like also come

1743
01:48:33,425 --> 01:48:40,105
up in the orbit tangentially of Nile and
Chic Bowie is one that you just named.

1744
01:48:40,795 --> 01:48:46,885
So I think there's a lot about like the
cosmopolitan, artsy aesthetic identity

1745
01:48:46,885 --> 01:48:50,215
reinvention thing that's really cool.

1746
01:48:50,695 --> 01:48:54,325
Bowie has also been gone,
I believe, 10 years.

1747
01:48:54,325 --> 01:48:57,505
I think we lost Lemi Bowie
Prince all the same year.

1748
01:48:58,193 --> 01:49:00,353
So Bowie and Prince would
be like two of the biggies.

1749
01:49:01,523 --> 01:49:06,113
Stevie Wonder, when I think about
like crazy chord shit and pop

1750
01:49:06,113 --> 01:49:07,883
music, I think about Stevie Wonder.

1751
01:49:08,423 --> 01:49:14,423
So he's always one go beyond songs in the
key of life, go beyond Innervisions, go

1752
01:49:14,423 --> 01:49:21,505
beyond talking book, get into plantation
and a backup stream to music of my

1753
01:49:21,505 --> 01:49:24,955
mind and crazy live stuff and whatever.

1754
01:49:25,405 --> 01:49:33,495
And Stevie's drumming, all that stuff sly
for a, a number of dimensions, sly and

1755
01:49:33,495 --> 01:49:36,315
the Family Stone is a great analog here.

1756
01:49:37,215 --> 01:49:41,625
One of those things is Larry Graham's
very inventive, slap base playing.

1757
01:49:42,075 --> 01:49:48,937
But Sly like Chic is one of the
probably most underappreciated, another

1758
01:49:48,937 --> 01:49:53,587
place where like Questlove has done
Yeoman's work to help recontextualize

1759
01:49:53,587 --> 01:49:54,757
the artists for modern time.

1760
01:49:54,757 --> 01:50:00,127
So there's a great new Sly documentary
from the last year or two, and

1761
01:50:00,127 --> 01:50:04,203
Jimmy fucking Hendrix man, I'll go.

1762
01:50:04,923 --> 01:50:09,723
I think two or three years sometimes
without like really doing a lot of

1763
01:50:09,723 --> 01:50:14,193
Hendrix listening, you know, I'll have
like a Hendrix on a barbecue playlist.

1764
01:50:14,643 --> 01:50:20,405
I'll play manic depression at the
dive bar jukebox 'cause it's a perfect

1765
01:50:20,405 --> 01:50:24,905
sounding jam or red house depending
on how late in the night it is.

1766
01:50:24,905 --> 01:50:30,275
The Atlanta International pop, the Atlanta
International Pop Festival, 1970 version

1767
01:50:30,275 --> 01:50:32,345
of Red House, which to me is the best

1768
01:50:32,945 --> 01:50:33,125
Cliff: the

1769
01:50:33,395 --> 01:50:33,965
Kyle: one of that.

1770
01:50:34,025 --> 01:50:34,505
Yeah.

1771
01:50:35,469 --> 01:50:39,519
but like, also, and I think, I think
I sent this to you pretty recently,

1772
01:50:40,486 --> 01:50:45,526
machine gun pe people have been talking
about band of gypsies and specifically

1773
01:50:45,526 --> 01:50:49,726
the couple of recordings that exist
of machine gun and how that's maybe

1774
01:50:49,726 --> 01:50:52,216
the best guitar recording ever.

1775
01:50:52,666 --> 01:50:59,056
So if you take Peak Nile Rogers in
the one direction, Pete Jimi Hendrix

1776
01:50:59,056 --> 01:51:02,506
in the other direction is probably
machine gun with the band of gypsies.

1777
01:51:02,536 --> 01:51:08,565
But love it or hate it, the
estate is still releasing notes

1778
01:51:08,625 --> 01:51:14,255
that Jimi Hendrix put on tape to
one degree of care or another.

1779
01:51:15,005 --> 01:51:16,745
But he's always worth revisiting.

1780
01:51:17,195 --> 01:51:22,055
And like the older I get, the more I
feel like he is not only one of the most

1781
01:51:22,055 --> 01:51:28,235
important musical figures of the 20th
century, but like maybe one of the most

1782
01:51:28,235 --> 01:51:31,865
important Americans who lived period.

1783
01:51:32,223 --> 01:51:35,283
he's the lightning bolt
of American culture.

1784
01:51:35,283 --> 01:51:39,543
He's, he's the, the moment
where it all changed.

1785
01:51:39,543 --> 01:51:43,533
You know, he like all past, present and
future all lives through Jimi Hendrix.

1786
01:51:44,133 --> 01:51:49,533
You're really into Artemis two and
the possibility of space travel

1787
01:51:49,563 --> 01:51:55,383
and science and all that, like Jimi
Hendrix in the 1969 of it all is right

1788
01:51:55,383 --> 01:51:56,943
back in that same moment as well.

1789
01:51:57,766 --> 01:52:00,976
I'm sure everybody who, who listens
to this podcast already likes Jimi

1790
01:52:00,976 --> 01:52:06,796
Hendrix, but like Reapp appreciating
any of those cats who were like singular

1791
01:52:06,796 --> 01:52:13,336
and other worldly and really moved the
ball really fucking far downfield and

1792
01:52:13,336 --> 01:52:19,036
continue to years and years and years
past in many cases their lives period.

1793
01:52:19,572 --> 01:52:21,042
but certainly past their prime output.

1794
01:52:22,011 --> 01:52:28,019
So then the two things, obviously
guitar and bass, but specific

1795
01:52:28,019 --> 01:52:30,629
things with each, with guitar.

1796
01:52:31,919 --> 01:52:34,229
I'm not normally a clean tone guy.

1797
01:52:34,799 --> 01:52:39,959
Just going after and hounding different
flavors of clean tone guitar here.

1798
01:52:40,619 --> 01:52:46,739
So my personal favorite clean tone
guitarist, short-lived young man,

1799
01:52:46,739 --> 01:52:52,679
Steve Gaines of Crawdad and Lynyrd
Skynyrd, a great oaky picker.

1800
01:52:53,039 --> 01:52:55,739
And I think a lot of the ones that
I'm gonna touch on are really more

1801
01:52:55,739 --> 01:52:58,103
in the country influenced vein.

1802
01:52:58,853 --> 01:53:00,503
But there's some great jazz cats too.

1803
01:53:00,503 --> 01:53:04,523
So Steve Gaines is one, when you talk
about clean tone, if you're not talking

1804
01:53:04,523 --> 01:53:08,633
about Nile Rogers, you're probably talking
about Mark Knopfler from Dire Straits.

1805
01:53:09,083 --> 01:53:14,273
Another great example of
just precision playing.

1806
01:53:15,083 --> 01:53:18,623
I mean, you could spend a whole night
just watching people do play throws

1807
01:53:18,743 --> 01:53:22,643
of sultans of swing, and the best
guitarists in the world can't play it

1808
01:53:23,093 --> 01:53:27,113
as precisely and as swingy as Mark ler.

1809
01:53:27,637 --> 01:53:33,937
Glen Campbell, one of the greats,
west Montgomery, one of the greats.

1810
01:53:34,387 --> 01:53:38,167
And shout out to our buddy Steve
West, the, the great photographer

1811
01:53:38,167 --> 01:53:40,837
and artisan who originally
put me onto West Montgomery.

1812
01:53:41,732 --> 01:53:44,492
it's one of my favorite cassettes
in my truck, is the incredible

1813
01:53:44,492 --> 01:53:46,232
jazz guitar of West Montgomery.

1814
01:53:46,262 --> 01:53:46,712
That is a,

1815
01:53:46,772 --> 01:53:48,127
Cliff: I was gonna ask if that's the one.

1816
01:53:48,227 --> 01:53:48,447
Yep.

1817
01:53:48,452 --> 01:53:50,822
Kyle: a, that's a fun
pickup truck cassette.

1818
01:53:51,737 --> 01:53:58,397
With just, it still plays very cleanly,
even with an only mid-range stock forward.

1819
01:53:58,397 --> 01:54:02,927
Speakers, uh, Roy
Buchanan, great clean tone.

1820
01:54:02,927 --> 01:54:05,507
Telly player, the guys in Poco.

1821
01:54:05,537 --> 01:54:10,487
All influenced by Roy Buchanan being
a good downstream example of that.

1822
01:54:10,517 --> 01:54:14,957
Jerry Reed, who did some cool
ply things around clean tone,

1823
01:54:14,957 --> 01:54:16,487
but man was a hell of a picker.

1824
01:54:16,997 --> 01:54:21,767
Chad Atkins, as we mentioned,
Steve Cropper, maybe a little

1825
01:54:21,767 --> 01:54:26,207
in that vein, but could get kind
of crunchy in his work as well.

1826
01:54:26,657 --> 01:54:28,667
Bass how low can you go?

1827
01:54:30,421 --> 01:54:33,601
funk base of different flavors.

1828
01:54:34,051 --> 01:54:42,091
you know, you could go upstream to
Bernard's influences and enjoy like

1829
01:54:42,841 --> 01:54:48,391
a James Jamerson, the true goat of
the instrument in American music.

1830
01:54:48,931 --> 01:54:51,331
Uh, you know, he's on
all the Motown stuff.

1831
01:54:52,209 --> 01:54:59,409
Jerry, Jim or Jamat, uh, the Atlantic
Records session guy already mentioned.

1832
01:54:59,559 --> 01:55:02,469
Larry Graham of Sly and the Family Stone.

1833
01:55:03,468 --> 01:55:06,408
I remember reading a thing where Bernard
Edwards talked about the Brothers

1834
01:55:06,408 --> 01:55:13,458
Johnson specifically Lewis Thunder,
thumbs Johnson watching them side stage

1835
01:55:13,728 --> 01:55:15,768
and being like, how is he doing that?

1836
01:55:16,268 --> 01:55:19,597
so if you've got a cat like Bernard
Edwards being like, how is he doing that?

1837
01:55:19,725 --> 01:55:20,445
they're pretty great.

1838
01:55:21,217 --> 01:55:25,267
he also cited Rufuss Rufuss and
Chaka Khan sort of in the same way.

1839
01:55:26,083 --> 01:55:30,733
Also on that list, I would put George
Porter of the meters, obviously, Bootsy

1840
01:55:30,733 --> 01:55:38,010
Collins, Rocco Prestia of Tower of Power,
Paul Jackson of the Mighty Head, hunters,

1841
01:55:38,550 --> 01:55:39,990
Herbie Hancock, and the head hunters.

1842
01:55:40,756 --> 01:55:42,856
that's maybe an interesting
place to go from here.

1843
01:55:42,946 --> 01:55:46,685
That's a great mix of jazz and funk.

1844
01:55:47,195 --> 01:55:50,915
And sort of a third thing that's
distinctive to a group of people getting

1845
01:55:50,915 --> 01:55:57,039
down, Willie Weeks, who played with
Donny Hathaway would be another basis.

1846
01:55:57,497 --> 01:55:59,575
and then I got a shout out.

1847
01:55:59,575 --> 01:56:06,156
Jamay Stuart Zender being a more recent
example, and like all of those cats,

1848
01:56:06,606 --> 01:56:08,766
the only person that I can think of.

1849
01:56:09,216 --> 01:56:12,426
That's like remotely that
funky, that's like a, right now,

1850
01:56:12,426 --> 01:56:14,136
right now artist is Thundercat.

1851
01:56:15,006 --> 01:56:19,296
So knowing that that's an ecosystem
of people, everyone that I just

1852
01:56:19,296 --> 01:56:23,946
named, that I'm very into and I'm
a huge bass fan and as I get older

1853
01:56:23,946 --> 01:56:26,076
I become even more of a bass fan.

1854
01:56:26,136 --> 01:56:30,636
'cause we grew up in the south
with funk and soul and church

1855
01:56:30,666 --> 01:56:33,336
music and rap and all that.

1856
01:56:33,756 --> 01:56:37,566
So anybody who has good bass
recommendations that aren't Berkeley

1857
01:56:37,596 --> 01:56:42,936
music people butter, funky and good
and distinct, I'd love to know.

1858
01:56:43,386 --> 01:56:46,506
That's a whole bunch of folks that, that's
that between the two of us, that's hours

1859
01:56:46,506 --> 01:56:48,276
and hours and hours and hours of music.

1860
01:56:48,726 --> 01:56:53,136
And I, I would say like more than
ever, it's like, pick one and stay on

1861
01:56:53,136 --> 01:56:56,836
them for a month and just only do that
thing live with the reps. You will

1862
01:56:56,836 --> 01:57:00,697
be so gratified by just living with
the reps of the funk and the groove.

1863
01:57:01,325 --> 01:57:03,850
Cliff: And if you find yourself not
liking something, make an intentional

1864
01:57:03,850 --> 01:57:05,500
choice in another direction.

1865
01:57:06,250 --> 01:57:08,350
Tie this to what we were
talking about earlier.

1866
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:13,300
This is how you stave off the
computer led future, right?

1867
01:57:13,330 --> 01:57:15,130
Do you wanna listen to this mush?

1868
01:57:15,760 --> 01:57:16,420
No, baby.

1869
01:57:16,810 --> 01:57:17,200
No.

1870
01:57:18,160 --> 01:57:20,800
You need to listen to
West Montgomery, okay?

1871
01:57:20,800 --> 01:57:22,240
You need to listen to Thundercat.

1872
01:57:22,240 --> 01:57:27,670
You need to learn why you would listen to
them, even if you never have to verbalize

1873
01:57:27,670 --> 01:57:30,910
it to anybody else so that you can
learn how to listen to the next thing.

1874
01:57:31,240 --> 01:57:32,740
You got to do it, baby.

1875
01:57:32,740 --> 01:57:34,390
Don't listen to that AI slot.

1876
01:57:34,600 --> 01:57:35,230
Don't do it.

1877
01:57:37,030 --> 01:57:38,140
This is me being loving.

1878
01:57:38,440 --> 01:57:41,530
Kyle: nobody says it better than
the final words on the record.

1879
01:57:41,530 --> 01:57:43,060
The whole world's a circus.

1880
01:57:43,150 --> 01:57:44,200
Don't you be a clown.