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Kyle: Today we're talking
about Illmatic by nas.

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Cliff: In our pre-discussion
leading up to hitting the record

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button, we were just using the
nineties to triangulate ourselves.

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And our keystone cultural monument for
that was Atlanta Braves trivia year by

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year, very specifically, probably because
me and you can most easily associate

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that with our exact moments in childhood
and where we were during all of them.

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I can always work backwards from the 96
demolition or the demolition after the 96

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season of Atlanta, Fulton County Stadium.

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And I still in my life have
driven by that parking lot,

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sadly, for many years since then.

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But it's fun to think through what I was
doing when Illmatic arrived and try to

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place anything around myself, especially,
having been both my whole life now.

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A white kid.

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I was, and still am one of those, but
also lived in Jonesboro at this time.

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And I was at that point, an old
enough kid to have friends who

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did know about nas, even if I was
not one of them very well yet.

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And what a strange time to be
alive, think about and recollect on.

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but this album has come back and
blown me away in a way that even

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I didn't anticipate knowing full
well it would blow me away again.

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I have been stoked about this
for, what, six weeks now.

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Kyle: So a couple of things.

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One, I find it funny that we're we're
just now deep enough in this practice

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together to take on two of the biggest
baddest, uh, of their respective thing.

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Like we're doing Illmatic and the
first Sabbath record in the same year.

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And, and that feels deeply
spiritually related to me.

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we've danced around the big ones in our
conversations I think we told ourselves

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that it was to force ourselves out,
but there are so many records that

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there's so much on, and it's so just,
there aren't a lot of records that I

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think it's as settled that like, okay,
this is the one of its thing as much

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as you're gonna find, uh, with matic.

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So I think our attitude for a long
time was like, what's the point?

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What can we add to it?

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And it's like, oh, no.

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Well, actually it is interesting
for us to think about it.

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The other thing that I wanted to
say is it is funny that we went

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to the Atlanta Braves without
consciously connecting it to the fact

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that they were so America's team.

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And so in the monoculture to some degree
that they are name checked on Illmatic,

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on halftime, on the first single from this
record that came out in 92 in the middle

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of the best team in baseball histories,
meteoric Run Atlanta Ain't braver.

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I pull a number, like a pager
and it was a gazillion listens.

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it just goes to show how bad I am
at Deep Listening as an instinct.

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It was a gazillion listens before
I was like, did he say Atlanta?

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And I was like, yep.

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Yeah, sure Was.

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on the soundtrack to the movie Zebra
Head, which I put on my letterbox watch

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list and then saw what it was about,
read some reviews, saw Michael Rappaport

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was in the cast, and immediately
removed it from my letterbox watch list.

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But that still brings us back to Illmatic.

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I think it's no secret on this
podcast that we are two white

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guys, but we are also two enormous
lovers and respecters of hip hop.

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And this is just one of those
moments, like, if you love music,

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hip hop or otherwise is worth
really taking a look at this.

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Uh, the first thing that I want to know,
I intentionally did not ask you ahead

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of time is you alluded to it just now,
but I'd, I'd like you to tell me more

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about your relationship to this record.

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When you were exposed to it, when
you did or did not start claiming it

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as your own, as something you loved.

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' cause we're, we're southerners and
sort of as a default mode there.

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There's a bright line between
us and East coast rap.

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So tell me about your
relationship to Illmatic.

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Let's situate ourselves.

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Cliff: Totally.

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Oh, this is, this is really cool.

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Honestly, something I hadn't even
really thought about until this moment.

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That's a great prompt.

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I'd only thought about the sort of
lead in to my answer, which is spending

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a lot of time with this record.

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I now do truly realize that growing
up, going to, at that time elementary

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school in Clayton County, like
I absolutely heard this record.

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I didn't know it or care about it
at that time for a ton of reasons.

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I also just didn't have the
appropriate exposure to appreciate

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hip hop in general at that moment.

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But like the, the further I go into
it, the more I've listened, it's,

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and we've made this reference before
too, but it's, it's everything from

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what my friends might have listened
to in the neighborhood to songs.

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I remember hearing at like
a dazzle skating rink.

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cause it, I mean, I think we talked about
that on like, uh, the TLC episode, but,

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where I grew up, NAS would not have been
uncommon whatsoever in that setting.

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And so like, so I'm starting to
kind of remember a bunch of that.

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But the actual moment that this began
happening for me as a kid or as a,

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I guess as an adult, literally, and
exactly three days after I graduated

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high school, I moved to New York.

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At which

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Kyle: I was wondering if that
was gonna factor into it.

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Yeah.

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Cliff: Yes.

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Oh man.

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Kyle: uh, this would've been 11
years after the record came out

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Cliff: that's right.

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Kyle: a, still a cultural touchstone.

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Cliff: Yeah.

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And I remember luckily this,
body of work in this podcast, uh,

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has enough sort of evidence for
work when I'm about to say that.

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You can always go back if you're
interested, but I mean, naturally

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at that time, like there was a
hip hop artist who you would think

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of as the person representing New
York in 2005, and that was Jay-Z.

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And I don't give a shit about Jay-Z.

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So that was a hard thing for
me to try to process like

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Kyle: What era

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Cliff: in insincerity

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Kyle: Would that have been that?

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Not the Black album.

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We're well beyond that.

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Like American gangster
maybe by that point.

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Cliff: Yeah, something like that.

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Shortly past collision course, which we

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Kyle: Oh God.

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Yeah.

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And um, like Blueprint.

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Yeah.

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We're, yeah, we're well
into all of Bad Boys too.

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Soundtrack.

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Yeah.

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I don't know.

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Cliff: yeah.

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So, as whatever as I was at 18,
like we both were I had enough

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self-awareness to be like, okay, you
don't have to like everything, but

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it's probably helpful to understand it.

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And I became, you know, like
really fascinated with New

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York culture living there.

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I mean, I lived in Hell's Kitchen.

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I lived in a tiny apartment.

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I literally moved in with someone
I'd never met until I got there.

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I was spending crazy amounts of money just
surviving in a rat infested apartment.

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I was walking like, and, and you just
have that experience, right, of, you're

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inside the apartment and it's never quiet
anywhere, but you're inside the apartment

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and you're in, and then you're out in New
York, it's just one of the two things.

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You're either like sleeping
or you are in New York.

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And so that sensation of hitting, hitting
the door every morning at the, at the

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exit of your apartment building and
just hearing the street in one sense,

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that whole cultural experience became
like a really meaningful thing to me.

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And so Nas became a part of that.

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two things that have probably never
been associated with each other

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before Seinfeld was a part of that.

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just the what is going on here because
this is so different from where I grew

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up and like, what are, like, everyone
has this like, layer of conversation

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where they're just talking about New
York and I didn't know anything about it.

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And so it just, it made, it was
a really deeply fascinating time.

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It was also, you know, right then at
60 Gig iPod color time where you're

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buying a thing from Tower Records
or whatever, spending 30 bucks a

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fucking cd, bringing it back on your
MacBook, ripping that thing down so

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that you could put it on your iPod.

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'cause there's no meaningful
way to just buy that shit

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directly and put it on there.

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And like, yes, file sharing had spun
up, but I was living in a, what a relic.

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I was living in a New York apartment.

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There's always such good wifi
you can get at that time.

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Like it's kind of different
than being able to sit at home

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on your parents' computer.

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So all of that was kind of swirling when
I learned to go down a few distinct paths.

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And one of them was this, but
it, it was like pearls before

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swine, to be honest with you.

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Like I'm listening to it.

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I hear it.

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I've got my good headphones.

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I'm into it.

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I'm walking the New York streets.

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I've got everything that I should
need to understand what was happening.

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But the, I mean, and maybe this
is obvious, but I could not

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immediately understand where a Nas
autobiographical album was coming from.

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You know, not least because I wasn't
literally living in Queens at the time.

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But like, that was not my
childhood up until this point.

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And at that moment I'm listening
to someone, and I'm sure we'll talk

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about this more, but I'm listening
to someone effectively give a

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life history up until the age of
18, uh, about living right there.

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And that's, a lot to try to unpack.

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but you know, another probably adjacent
part of this, we'll talk about more.

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It's like he is throwing so much
information at you per second

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that for me, it was overwhelming.

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And all I walked away with, at
least at that time, was listening

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to this record is fucking cool.

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And that's probably all I need
to know about it at this point.

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I'm gonna listen to it if
anyone asks me if I like it.

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Yes.

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What's your favorite NAS record?

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This one specifically.

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I like some of the other ones, but
Illmatic specifically, I like it.

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You like it?

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Everyone likes it.

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it was a home run reference of all types.

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I, so I've kind of had a
few different phases of it.

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but not to overstate the entire
purpose of everything we do on this

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podcast over and over again, but man, I
appreciated going back and intentionally

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going way deep with a skillset that
I didn't know to have at that time.

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Kyle: I love that.

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Cliff: Mine was simple,
but narratively reasonable.

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I'm betting that you had a much
cooler first, second, third exposure

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to this record and had thoughts
about it as much like long term,

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as long as I've known you a bigger
and more intelligent hip hop head.

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So I'm, I'm curious to hear
sort of the same from you.

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Kyle: Yeah, so actually not at all, and
it's a bit of a source of a bit of a

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source of shame, that I was so staunchly
a proud southern rap evangelist that I

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was like, fuck everything from New York.

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it was the Hank Williams Jr.
Send me to Hell or New York City.

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It'd be about the same to me.

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And I had never, I didn't go to New York
until my twenties for the first time.

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it's crazy considering how
much time I spend there now.

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but the only artist that I got into
from New York, like Jay-Z was, w

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was because they were trafficked
to me by people from other places.

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I liked the Jay-Z that did stuff with
Timbaland or the Neptunes, you know,

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people whose sounds made more sense to me.

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I mean, it just started with the sonic
palette of New York Boomba music.

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Jazzy mid range, whatever.

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We have talked a number of times
Project Pat, episode and otherwise

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about car culture and its influence
on the funky low end syrupy sound.

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The eight oh eights the stuff that I love.

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so as a bit of a point of pride, I didn't
listen to Nas, I didn't listen to Biggie.

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I didn't listen to Mob Deep.

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I didn't listen to stuff that was like
consciously, proudly from New York.

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I had 95 source awards burned into
my brain and I watched outcasts get

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booed and was like, you know what?

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I don't need you either.

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so I was like pretty deep into
my twenties, I think before I

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was like, that was ill-informed.

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Informed and I should listen to this.

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And to your point, I had had scores of
years and hours of hip hop listening

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and like sort of a more, more informed
opinion of what I liked, didn't

219
00:13:06,417 --> 00:13:08,637
like what I think I could like.

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I'll be honest, it was
really the blog era.

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It was like, action Bronson and ASAP
Rocky and Dudes like that, where

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people were like, this just sounds like
Ghostface, or this sounds like Nas.

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Or this person's trying to be Rakim.

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And I was like, well
damn, I guess I should go.

225
00:13:30,177 --> 00:13:31,047
I like these mix tapes.

226
00:13:31,052 --> 00:13:32,217
I guess I should go listen to all of that.

227
00:13:32,217 --> 00:13:35,007
It was really, I think the Alchemist
more than anything where they were

228
00:13:35,007 --> 00:13:37,827
like, if you like Alchemist beats, you
should be listening to New York shit

229
00:13:37,827 --> 00:13:43,597
and you're an idiot if you don't So
I had an enoughs enough moment and I

230
00:13:43,731 --> 00:13:48,978
was, living and working in downtown
Atlanta, like sort of one of the only

231
00:13:48,978 --> 00:13:54,756
walkable experiences to have in that
city at the time and put it in the

232
00:13:54,756 --> 00:13:58,836
headphones as you would in a New York way.

233
00:13:59,206 --> 00:14:04,630
And I think you have to be out walking
around in a city with some density, with

234
00:14:04,630 --> 00:14:06,640
some noise that it's competing with.

235
00:14:06,670 --> 00:14:11,388
Like you, you told me a lot before
this episode about try different

236
00:14:11,748 --> 00:14:15,018
ways, different forums for listening.

237
00:14:15,388 --> 00:14:20,758
but I remember walking around with a
full blast, like caffeinated, first thing

238
00:14:20,758 --> 00:14:23,338
in the morning, feet to the pavement.

239
00:14:23,638 --> 00:14:26,248
I love what you said about like
either you're sleeping or you're out.

240
00:14:26,908 --> 00:14:29,348
New York, New York state of mind.

241
00:14:29,558 --> 00:14:34,508
Like when the first notes of
that shit hit, it is straight

242
00:14:34,508 --> 00:14:35,618
outta the dungeons of rap.

243
00:14:35,618 --> 00:14:39,968
You're like, I'm in a place, my character
spawned in the middle of the GTA map

244
00:14:39,968 --> 00:14:47,468
and I'm here, and the the fucking
piano notes are, you know, and it only

245
00:14:47,468 --> 00:14:49,568
took one solid listen through that.

246
00:14:49,568 --> 00:14:50,918
I was like, this is the greatest.

247
00:14:50,978 --> 00:14:52,088
This is the rap record.

248
00:14:52,148 --> 00:14:56,421
This is If aliens came down today,
I'm the biggest outcast defender

249
00:14:56,421 --> 00:14:57,981
in the history of the universe.

250
00:14:58,351 --> 00:15:00,556
Illmatic is the singular hip hop record.

251
00:15:00,556 --> 00:15:05,708
And I, would defy anyone to make an
argument for it being anything else

252
00:15:06,338 --> 00:15:10,058
because a lot of the stuff that people
would point to, including Biggie or

253
00:15:10,058 --> 00:15:12,998
Pac Points directly back to this shit.

254
00:15:13,672 --> 00:15:14,662
and it's so interesting.

255
00:15:14,662 --> 00:15:17,572
It's the, it's the crux moment.

256
00:15:17,942 --> 00:15:20,732
The first cycle of hip hop
kind of draws to a close.

257
00:15:20,732 --> 00:15:24,102
And this is a new world being born in 94.

258
00:15:24,190 --> 00:15:29,600
He's grabbing the torch from Rakim
and running straight past all the

259
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,740
early nineties shit, you know,
vanilla Ice and Teenage Mutant Ninja

260
00:15:33,740 --> 00:15:37,010
Turtles to the Chronic from 92.

261
00:15:38,133 --> 00:15:42,803
whatever LL Cool J was doing,
starting to be an actor, all the pop.

262
00:15:43,093 --> 00:15:47,733
The sort of first wave of ification,
like kids, if you don't like the way

263
00:15:48,023 --> 00:15:52,163
hip hop is represented in popular
culture now after the sort of early two

264
00:15:52,163 --> 00:15:58,509
thousands era, you would've hated the
uneasy culture clash of Rodney King's

265
00:15:58,509 --> 00:16:03,182
early nineties America, where nobody
had really figured out how to sit in the

266
00:16:03,182 --> 00:16:05,102
same room and listen to this shit yet.

267
00:16:05,642 --> 00:16:08,732
And it, it brought a lot of that
stuff back viscerally for me.

268
00:16:08,732 --> 00:16:13,795
But, I became a fan of it
just as a fan of hip hop.

269
00:16:14,085 --> 00:16:17,615
And I am also, you and I have talked,
I think, a number of times on this

270
00:16:17,615 --> 00:16:20,785
podcast about the sweet spot for runtime.

271
00:16:21,075 --> 00:16:24,675
This is like 39, 39, 40 minutes.

272
00:16:24,965 --> 00:16:28,887
it could not be more perfect runtime.

273
00:16:29,127 --> 00:16:32,057
And then to your point, you
can skate over the surface of

274
00:16:32,057 --> 00:16:33,737
this record forever and ever.

275
00:16:33,797 --> 00:16:40,763
Just on, the way these beats hit and
the movement, the lyrical of his rhyme,

276
00:16:40,763 --> 00:16:45,893
especially his interior rhyme, it
keeps you in motion the whole time.

277
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:48,020
But like you said, it's fucking dense.

278
00:16:48,290 --> 00:16:52,190
Like thi this is a, there's a hundred
grams of protein in this record.

279
00:16:52,902 --> 00:16:53,648
full bore.

280
00:16:53,863 --> 00:16:56,323
so yeah, you were way
ahead of me on this one.

281
00:16:56,998 --> 00:16:57,718
take that w

282
00:16:58,008 --> 00:16:58,428
Cliff: I will.

283
00:16:58,518 --> 00:16:59,838
Because they come so rarely.

284
00:17:00,438 --> 00:17:03,138
I'm realizing though,
this man, this is so cool.

285
00:17:03,978 --> 00:17:09,528
Us talking about, this reminded me of a
really specific moment I had this, perhaps

286
00:17:09,528 --> 00:17:13,908
this was one of the genesis of, uh, cliff
needs to have a ready defense for every

287
00:17:13,908 --> 00:17:15,468
musical position that's ever happened.

288
00:17:16,208 --> 00:17:20,069
When the reason I moved to New York
is I was working with  effectively

289
00:17:20,099 --> 00:17:22,289
like a nonprofit who helped.

290
00:17:23,405 --> 00:17:24,785
artists, for lack of a better term.

291
00:17:24,785 --> 00:17:27,755
So working musicians, actors,
whatever else in New York.

292
00:17:28,115 --> 00:17:32,635
The idea was to bring them together find
ways to support what they were doing, put

293
00:17:32,635 --> 00:17:37,235
them in community together, get them work
basically by sharing that and all that in,

294
00:17:37,235 --> 00:17:39,125
in building support networks and stuff.

295
00:17:39,475 --> 00:17:43,895
Now I've shared on some episode
somewhere I am pretty sure I'm gonna

296
00:17:43,895 --> 00:17:45,515
tell an adjacent story to set up.

297
00:17:45,775 --> 00:17:48,745
One of the things that happened during
that short period of time where I lived

298
00:17:48,745 --> 00:17:54,925
in New York by myself, is someone who
knew me through that nonprofit said, you

299
00:17:54,925 --> 00:17:57,806
know, you, you've been playing guitar,
you're trying to go to, you know, music.

300
00:17:58,166 --> 00:18:01,076
Like, do you know that Les
Paul plays down the street?

301
00:18:01,366 --> 00:18:03,256
Like Les Paul, the person.

302
00:18:03,526 --> 00:18:05,326
And I was like, what the
fuck are you talking about?

303
00:18:05,746 --> 00:18:06,076
You know?

304
00:18:06,106 --> 00:18:06,976
And they're like, no, no, no.

305
00:18:07,066 --> 00:18:10,666
Like 96-year-old Les Paul plays
at this jazz club down there.

306
00:18:11,046 --> 00:18:12,460
three nights a week or whatever.

307
00:18:12,750 --> 00:18:16,890
so extremely long story short,
like that conversation went,

308
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,480
yeah, but I cannot afford to go.

309
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,500
And he said, you know what I like, I
can't really afford this either, but

310
00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:23,910
we are going and I'm paying for you.

311
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,920
And he like, fronted $150 cover charge
or whatever it was to get me in the

312
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,570
door of this jazz club and sit and
see literally the last Paul play.

313
00:18:32,860 --> 00:18:36,910
Almost wordlessly because of
how far his mind had gone.

314
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:42,480
Like playing the guitar in a way that
I've never seen anyone play before

315
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,340
with 90 something year old hands.

316
00:18:44,740 --> 00:18:46,570
And it was like a deeply
incredible experience.

317
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:52,350
But living there and working with, and,
and living with like true musicians and

318
00:18:52,350 --> 00:18:53,670
artists who are trying to make a living.

319
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:56,040
Like I met people who
were like, no, no, no.

320
00:18:56,070 --> 00:18:59,370
I care about this and if you
don't know about it, I want

321
00:18:59,370 --> 00:19:01,200
to teach you, not judge you.

322
00:19:01,710 --> 00:19:03,990
So, like that was one experience I had.

323
00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:07,710
But having this conversation and
talking about New York reminds me that

324
00:19:07,770 --> 00:19:12,250
at one of those gatherings, someone
met me, asked me where I was from.

325
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:14,590
Although it was pretty obvious at
the time 'cause I looked like a

326
00:19:14,590 --> 00:19:16,960
fucking almond brother to a T man.

327
00:19:17,350 --> 00:19:22,510
I mean, I had long, long-ish
growing hair, right?

328
00:19:22,510 --> 00:19:26,230
Like, I just, so I looked
like someone picked me up from

329
00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:27,730
the south and dropped me off

330
00:19:28,195 --> 00:19:33,745
Kyle: Sleeve, sleeveless shirts,
reefer, smell, and looking for

331
00:19:33,745 --> 00:19:35,215
sweet tea anywhere you could get it.

332
00:19:36,670 --> 00:19:40,420
Cliff: In an incredible bit of trivia
about me, this is pre reef or smell, but

333
00:19:40,585 --> 00:19:41,605
Kyle: Oh, that's right.

334
00:19:43,765 --> 00:19:45,790
I always forget that,
that's, I forget that.

335
00:19:45,790 --> 00:19:48,355
That's my fault that that happened.

336
00:19:51,025 --> 00:19:54,625
Unlike so many other things in life,
cliff, you took something that we

337
00:19:54,625 --> 00:19:57,835
were both into and you got to be
the best one at it immediately.

338
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:06,256
Cliff: I take it seriously, you
know, so boy being, I, I remember

339
00:20:06,256 --> 00:20:10,054
now I was, at something, a meeting
something else with one of these folks.

340
00:20:10,054 --> 00:20:12,844
Someone, someone, you know, met
me, found out where I was from.

341
00:20:13,204 --> 00:20:17,344
We talked about outcast pretty quickly,
and they were like, tight, so how

342
00:20:17,344 --> 00:20:18,664
much are you listen to Born to Die?

343
00:20:18,954 --> 00:20:21,344
And I was like, well, I
mean, I like know about it.

344
00:20:21,344 --> 00:20:22,214
And they're like, no, no, no.

345
00:20:22,244 --> 00:20:23,534
Do you know that record?

346
00:20:23,714 --> 00:20:24,284
I'm like, no.

347
00:20:24,574 --> 00:20:24,934
Cool.

348
00:20:24,994 --> 00:20:25,654
Stay here.

349
00:20:26,024 --> 00:20:29,474
They just went back to their apartment
and got that CD and brought it

350
00:20:29,474 --> 00:20:31,574
back to me and said, you should
listen to this for a while and

351
00:20:31,574 --> 00:20:32,864
come back and talk to me about it.

352
00:20:34,289 --> 00:20:35,294
tell me what you think.

353
00:20:35,324 --> 00:20:37,004
It's not like a test, right?

354
00:20:37,154 --> 00:20:39,344
It was just like, no, no, no,
you should know about this.

355
00:20:39,344 --> 00:20:40,514
You just came to New York.

356
00:20:41,084 --> 00:20:43,124
And so, like, just even
that moment, right?

357
00:20:43,129 --> 00:20:45,554
I, I didn't have the context
to care about that then.

358
00:20:45,554 --> 00:20:48,914
But now sitting here thinking about
it and talking to you about it and

359
00:20:48,914 --> 00:20:53,924
thinking about like what are the two,
like monumental cultural to touchstones

360
00:20:53,924 --> 00:20:59,654
that came out in 1994, specifically
like building up East Coast rap, talking

361
00:20:59,654 --> 00:21:00,884
about the importance of New York.

362
00:21:00,884 --> 00:21:03,464
All of this stuff, like that
was a cultural moment that

363
00:21:03,464 --> 00:21:04,514
someone was sharing with us.

364
00:21:04,514 --> 00:21:08,894
That would have been the same as us
finding somebody who came from somewhere

365
00:21:08,894 --> 00:21:12,974
else and going, this is Aquemini
and I need for you to listen to it.

366
00:21:12,974 --> 00:21:15,914
And I like, I need for you to tell me.

367
00:21:16,139 --> 00:21:19,349
What this means to you
after you do it for a while.

368
00:21:19,729 --> 00:21:23,329
Ideally put it on in a car and
drive around aimlessly for a while.

369
00:21:23,669 --> 00:21:27,659
Which is certainly not the New York
experience, but man, like, even

370
00:21:27,659 --> 00:21:32,459
just bringing that to mind right,
gives me a deeper appreciation for

371
00:21:33,059 --> 00:21:34,739
how meaningful this clearly was.

372
00:21:34,979 --> 00:21:39,719
Not only to people like Illmatic
specifically, but like this moment

373
00:21:39,719 --> 00:21:44,219
and that decade plus of like,
yeah, we showed up artistically.

374
00:21:44,219 --> 00:21:45,269
This is what we mean.

375
00:21:45,329 --> 00:21:49,559
And like we sort of categorize ourselves
like it's sort of like Mets and

376
00:21:49,769 --> 00:21:54,529
Yankees fans a little bit, but like,
we won't hate each other, but we will

377
00:21:54,619 --> 00:21:59,749
sh maybe shoot each other lightly over
disagree because it's really important.

378
00:22:00,229 --> 00:22:04,409
And just like having that level of
appreciation when, from our experience,

379
00:22:04,409 --> 00:22:09,557
even at that point, loving any part
of southern rap still meant that we

380
00:22:09,557 --> 00:22:14,387
didn't necessarily have some sort of
natural enemy in the same way that

381
00:22:14,387 --> 00:22:15,827
there was the east and west coast.

382
00:22:15,827 --> 00:22:18,557
It was just, closer to what
you said, which is kind of, um,

383
00:22:18,587 --> 00:22:20,057
well fuck you guys entirely.

384
00:22:20,057 --> 00:22:21,047
We have a whole thing over here.

385
00:22:22,172 --> 00:22:22,532
Kyle: right.

386
00:22:22,592 --> 00:22:27,945
But that reminds me of one of the things
that I love at an instinctual level about

387
00:22:27,945 --> 00:22:33,593
hip hop is I don't think there's any
other art form kind of in general, but

388
00:22:33,593 --> 00:22:38,743
especially in music, that when people
talk about, like the culture in hip

389
00:22:38,743 --> 00:22:42,699
hop, you know, our, our buddy Brandon
Butler from butter a TL says, culture

390
00:22:42,699 --> 00:22:44,649
is people like us do things like this.

391
00:22:44,979 --> 00:22:48,519
Just being able to point to something
and say, that's where I'm from,

392
00:22:48,699 --> 00:22:50,049
that's what it's like to be me.

393
00:22:50,439 --> 00:22:51,369
I am proud.

394
00:22:51,999 --> 00:22:55,719
You know, or I have a multitude of
feelings about seeing it put out there.

395
00:22:55,719 --> 00:22:58,239
Like, I recognize these
streets, I recognize these

396
00:22:58,239 --> 00:22:59,499
restaurants that they talk about.

397
00:22:59,499 --> 00:23:01,359
It's just, it's real.

398
00:23:01,855 --> 00:23:05,635
it captures the beauty and the ugliness
of my lived experience as well.

399
00:23:05,635 --> 00:23:10,675
And I, I stringently want to
avoid some of the stuff that.

400
00:23:10,965 --> 00:23:17,655
We have read in preparation for this, like
I hate over intellectualizing hip hop.

401
00:23:17,945 --> 00:23:23,765
It goes without saying, maybe it doesn't,
that it's a very important art form.

402
00:23:24,035 --> 00:23:27,785
It is sort of like the dominant
mode of expression across the world.

403
00:23:28,055 --> 00:23:32,605
Now, you can never talk about or
appreciate hip hop enough, but like when

404
00:23:32,605 --> 00:23:38,480
shit starts to read too much, like a PhD
dissertation about it, people glaze over.

405
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,170
That's not why people start listening
to hip hop because it's important.

406
00:23:42,350 --> 00:23:45,740
You sent a gif of the Juneteenth
episode of Atlanta, uh,

407
00:23:47,870 --> 00:23:52,700
where Craig is trying to
explain all the shit to earn.

408
00:23:53,870 --> 00:23:59,239
And I, like, I remember cringing
straight up from my tailbone

409
00:23:59,509 --> 00:24:02,209
and my head going through the
ceiling, seeing that character.

410
00:24:02,209 --> 00:24:06,859
Like, that's exactly what I don't
want to be as a lover of hip hop and

411
00:24:06,859 --> 00:24:12,399
a person who is in and around black
culture for most of his life, that's

412
00:24:12,399 --> 00:24:14,199
my deep, that's my deepest fear.

413
00:24:15,184 --> 00:24:19,654
by the same token, I love hip hop because
you can have so many conversations.

414
00:24:20,059 --> 00:24:20,689
Around it.

415
00:24:20,719 --> 00:24:24,319
It opens up so many dimensions, you know,
from the low street to the high street.

416
00:24:24,319 --> 00:24:27,339
Like everybody, everybody
can get into this.

417
00:24:27,629 --> 00:24:32,699
And that's especially funny to me
as somebody who grew up in the kind

418
00:24:32,699 --> 00:24:36,839
of small town southern Christian
environment where we did, you know,

419
00:24:36,839 --> 00:24:41,189
tipper Gore's, PMRC land, where like
parents wouldn't let their kids buy CDs

420
00:24:41,219 --> 00:24:42,599
'cause of the stickers they had on it.

421
00:24:42,599 --> 00:24:45,719
And then they saw the videos on MTV
with the women and the champagne and

422
00:24:45,719 --> 00:24:50,282
all that and they were like, well,
definitely not now, but everybody

423
00:24:50,282 --> 00:24:56,307
recognizes, everybody sees themself
in it for better and for worse.

424
00:24:56,787 --> 00:25:02,708
And everything that you just said about
your experience as a New Yorker, I

425
00:25:02,708 --> 00:25:07,898
love, 'cause you were very far from the
Queensbridge housing projects, physically

426
00:25:07,988 --> 00:25:14,141
and spiritually, but you can also get
it, and I think the two books that I,

427
00:25:14,201 --> 00:25:18,011
I read through for this and that, and
that we have kind of talked about were

428
00:25:18,011 --> 00:25:22,393
the, Michael Eric Dyson curated book,
born to Use, mike's that's got, you

429
00:25:22,393 --> 00:25:26,570
know, dream Hampton and a bunch of great
people sharing, frankly, a little bit

430
00:25:26,570 --> 00:25:31,070
too intellectualized essays on different
dimensions of what this music means,

431
00:25:31,070 --> 00:25:33,710
using it as what they called a cipher.

432
00:25:34,370 --> 00:25:40,718
and then the 33 and a third by Matthew
Gasier, who made the Fu Penguin blog.

433
00:25:41,228 --> 00:25:45,008
And that particular guy having the
33 and a third entry on this album

434
00:25:45,008 --> 00:25:48,728
makes me feel some type of way, which
I know is rich as we're too white

435
00:25:48,728 --> 00:25:50,108
gas and talking about this thing.

436
00:25:50,368 --> 00:25:52,588
But he, he acknowledged
it right in the forward.

437
00:25:53,405 --> 00:25:57,964
Anyway, all that to say, they both talk
about duality, like that comes up a lot.

438
00:25:58,254 --> 00:26:02,634
one of the first things that I
noticed was that life's a bitch and

439
00:26:02,634 --> 00:26:05,804
the world is yours, are right next
to each other on the track list.

440
00:26:05,804 --> 00:26:07,994
And that's like the
philosophical yin and yang.

441
00:26:07,994 --> 00:26:10,783
That's like the linchpin
of this whole thing to me.

442
00:26:11,073 --> 00:26:15,453
But also you're New York and NAZA's
New York are a million miles away,

443
00:26:15,843 --> 00:26:17,463
and they're the same thing, right?

444
00:26:17,583 --> 00:26:19,263
It's a hyper-specific experience.

445
00:26:19,263 --> 00:26:20,673
It's extremely detailed.

446
00:26:20,963 --> 00:26:24,233
He's bragging, but he is
also street reporting.

447
00:26:24,620 --> 00:26:29,845
He has ambition, but he also
has fears or, you know, just

448
00:26:29,845 --> 00:26:32,241
real world survival motivators.

449
00:26:32,795 --> 00:26:36,397
we talked about that phrase, you know,
it, it's all in there with Jeff Buckley.

450
00:26:36,397 --> 00:26:40,509
But like that duality of man thing
is so here, and that's what makes

451
00:26:40,509 --> 00:26:42,369
it such a brilliant document.

452
00:26:42,369 --> 00:26:45,369
And this motherfucker was 20 years
old when this thing came out.

453
00:26:47,169 --> 00:26:50,679
Have to talk, you have like, that
immediately elevates it to LeBron James

454
00:26:50,679 --> 00:26:54,419
type type vibes, savant, born to do it.

455
00:26:54,419 --> 00:26:58,949
And all the collab, the very
famous esteemed collaborators who

456
00:26:58,949 --> 00:27:03,269
swooped in to help on this record
was because they wanted to be.

457
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,959
And there are quotes from people like
DJ Premier in large professor who

458
00:27:06,959 --> 00:27:08,849
said like, yo, this kid was the one.

459
00:27:08,939 --> 00:27:10,941
we just knew there was
just equality there.

460
00:27:11,439 --> 00:27:13,804
I hope it's evident as soon as
you drop the needle on this,

461
00:27:13,804 --> 00:27:14,824
I think it is for both of us.

462
00:27:15,522 --> 00:27:18,102
Cliff: To immediately go
straight into what you just said.

463
00:27:18,132 --> 00:27:24,012
'cause that is, to me, the connection
point for everyone who's listening, right?

464
00:27:24,582 --> 00:27:28,967
despite what you might mentally
think about the difference between

465
00:27:28,967 --> 00:27:36,617
20-year-old NAS and you person,
somehow he crosses all of those gaps.

466
00:27:37,273 --> 00:27:42,583
what's most maybe incredible and
interesting about it is that there

467
00:27:42,583 --> 00:27:44,083
are a million specific reasons.

468
00:27:44,083 --> 00:27:49,011
We'll talk through why all of this
is very good, every detail of it.

469
00:27:49,301 --> 00:27:53,431
But there was never a top line intention
of like, Hey, I'd like to connect

470
00:27:53,431 --> 00:27:56,461
to a Midwestern white 30-year-old.

471
00:27:56,751 --> 00:28:03,931
or a native Hawaiian or somebody who lives
in Canada or like just there is somehow

472
00:28:03,961 --> 00:28:09,841
a everything and everybody ness about
his human experience and the way that

473
00:28:09,841 --> 00:28:12,661
he tells it and the way that he cares.

474
00:28:13,381 --> 00:28:18,511
That translates somehow
it like against all odds.

475
00:28:18,601 --> 00:28:23,791
And I think what you said about life's
a bitch and the world is yours being

476
00:28:23,791 --> 00:28:27,121
smacked up against each other is
like the Rosetta Stone of whatever is

477
00:28:27,121 --> 00:28:27,811
happening there.

478
00:28:28,291 --> 00:28:36,211
There, there is a, a true optimism
in this music that comes from stories

479
00:28:36,871 --> 00:28:39,421
that otherwise would lack optimism.

480
00:28:39,421 --> 00:28:47,911
You would think like, and it man,
especially in this moment, in 2026, going

481
00:28:47,911 --> 00:28:53,687
back and listening to a truly positive Hey
everybody, go do your fucking thing, man.

482
00:28:53,717 --> 00:28:54,347
We love you.

483
00:28:54,347 --> 00:28:56,747
Like you rule, you're supported.

484
00:28:56,927 --> 00:28:57,797
Holy shit, man.

485
00:28:57,917 --> 00:29:03,807
Like it's bordering on like a cancelable
offense in modern times to be this like

486
00:29:03,807 --> 00:29:10,222
vulnerable and supportive of people,
especially on a record that has other,

487
00:29:10,635 --> 00:29:16,410
cool artifacts from the nineties, such
as the use of the F word, which we no

488
00:29:16,410 --> 00:29:22,280
longer do, and yet E I'm bringing that out
even because I in no way need to or want

489
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,140
to defend the use of that term anymore.

490
00:29:24,350 --> 00:29:27,470
But what I will say is if you go
back and look at exactly how he

491
00:29:27,470 --> 00:29:31,100
uses it, it's a lot less derogatory
than it feels like on first glance.

492
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,960
He's kind of using it as a specific
way to not judge it, but instead

493
00:29:36,020 --> 00:29:38,630
illustrate a larger point like.

494
00:29:39,261 --> 00:29:43,423
it's masterful in a way that you don't
know how to expect until you turn that

495
00:29:43,423 --> 00:29:47,323
notch on your brain and go, oh, I need
to understand what this 20-year-old

496
00:29:47,323 --> 00:29:51,283
was doing along with this dream team
of producers, because they have like a

497
00:29:51,283 --> 00:29:53,893
Wilt Chamberlain esque rookie season.

498
00:29:54,133 --> 00:30:00,883
Like a fucking outrageous, I just came
outta nowhere and I'm going to not only

499
00:30:00,883 --> 00:30:04,993
show you what hip hop album should sound
like in general, but I'm gonna tell

500
00:30:04,993 --> 00:30:09,613
you what you should do as a new hip hop
artist on your very first record, or

501
00:30:09,613 --> 00:30:14,385
else you risk immediately melting into
obscurity, oh, challenge fucking accepted.

502
00:30:14,745 --> 00:30:15,255
Okay.

503
00:30:16,016 --> 00:30:21,610
And to be able to go back still,
this far in advance and go, holy

504
00:30:21,610 --> 00:30:23,020
shit, this whole thing holds up.

505
00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:24,460
It sounds good.

506
00:30:24,460 --> 00:30:25,360
It feels good.

507
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:26,410
It's interesting.

508
00:30:26,410 --> 00:30:27,310
It's fascinating.

509
00:30:27,460 --> 00:30:29,440
It's good active, listen,
it's good passive.

510
00:30:29,530 --> 00:30:35,680
Listen, it connects directly to
history, and it connects directly to

511
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,480
all the future that would come past it.

512
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:44,260
I mean, we always position albums as a,
hopefully more of a constellation or nexus

513
00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:46,030
point or whatever for learning things.

514
00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:50,710
But I mean, this arguably is like in
the pantheon of like, there are 20

515
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:53,980
things that have been very important
in American musical history, and

516
00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:55,630
this maybe belongs in that room.

517
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,498
Kyle: I saw it compared to kind of blue.

518
00:31:00,128 --> 00:31:07,138
I read in one of the essays that the use
of wild style was an acknowledgement,

519
00:31:07,198 --> 00:31:11,668
you know, wild style is to hip hop as
Charlie Parker's Cherokee was to bebop.

520
00:31:12,268 --> 00:31:16,528
So the, the indication of jazz and
this records relationship to jazz is,

521
00:31:16,863 --> 00:31:19,018
is obviously super, super important.

522
00:31:19,508 --> 00:31:24,048
I saw comparisons to Big
Mama Thornton and Elvis.

523
00:31:24,358 --> 00:31:33,388
I saw somebody compare Rakim to
Woody Guthrie and Nas to Bob Dylan.

524
00:31:33,678 --> 00:31:37,248
That so many different people could
arrive at the same conclusion.

525
00:31:37,728 --> 00:31:42,288
Oh, this is perhaps the most
innately American record that has

526
00:31:42,288 --> 00:31:45,708
ever existed is pretty insane.

527
00:31:45,708 --> 00:31:49,668
Because I think if you ask that
question straight up, free of context,

528
00:31:50,178 --> 00:31:55,008
I would actually be quite interested
in, America is an experiment.

529
00:31:55,484 --> 00:31:57,104
anyone around the world can see.

530
00:31:57,104 --> 00:31:59,834
It's an experiment that's not
going very well right now.

531
00:31:59,834 --> 00:32:02,794
The lab's on fire, but it's 250 years old.

532
00:32:02,854 --> 00:32:04,114
I mean, it's been a blink.

533
00:32:04,474 --> 00:32:08,074
We've barely put a drop in the beaker
in the grand scheme of the experiment.

534
00:32:08,404 --> 00:32:12,863
so naturally there's gonna be a little
bit of a toxic cloud in the lab, but

535
00:32:12,863 --> 00:32:18,473
that we already have like a super
serum, like Illmatic or like rock and

536
00:32:18,473 --> 00:32:23,873
roll or like Miles Davis, let alone all
those things is pretty fucking crazy.

537
00:32:24,765 --> 00:32:29,745
I would be interested actually to listen
to an AM America at two 50 podcast

538
00:32:29,745 --> 00:32:32,115
where we just asked 250 famous people.

539
00:32:32,115 --> 00:32:33,967
What's the most American thing?

540
00:32:34,297 --> 00:32:36,496
Album specifically, but also like food.

541
00:32:38,405 --> 00:32:41,675
I might start doing that as an
icebreaker next time I'm in Denver.

542
00:32:42,076 --> 00:32:43,276
I'll be very interested.

543
00:32:43,606 --> 00:32:46,096
Wonder how many people
will say the Grateful Dead.

544
00:32:46,426 --> 00:32:49,846
Cliff: In Colorado as many
people as you ask, probably

545
00:32:49,966 --> 00:32:50,716
Kyle: live in Europe.

546
00:32:50,716 --> 00:32:55,186
72. A record, not even a record,
not even made in America.

547
00:32:55,726 --> 00:32:57,856
Cliff: Listen man, we're
a kaleidoscope these days.

548
00:32:57,856 --> 00:33:03,016
I would know how to take someone's dead
appreciation and go, you know what, man?

549
00:33:03,616 --> 00:33:04,906
I can appreciate that.

550
00:33:04,906 --> 00:33:09,166
They helped further live recordings
and passing music around to each

551
00:33:09,166 --> 00:33:12,136
other and creating a culture
of music being liberated from

552
00:33:12,136 --> 00:33:14,536
its packaging and capitalism.

553
00:33:14,536 --> 00:33:18,196
And I can appreciate that that
culture stands today and in some

554
00:33:18,196 --> 00:33:22,036
distant way helped and influenced
and supported hip hop and what it

555
00:33:22,036 --> 00:33:25,216
would become with all of its sampling
and moving things back and forth.

556
00:33:25,906 --> 00:33:31,176
So, find the connection challenge
always kept sharp by my constant ability

557
00:33:31,356 --> 00:33:35,076
Kyle: I was telling somebody just
the other day about your, you

558
00:33:35,076 --> 00:33:36,996
can't make me hate this idea.

559
00:33:38,826 --> 00:33:44,776
Where for the listeners, the idea that
we had been batting around is like,

560
00:33:44,836 --> 00:33:49,276
if Tig the podcast ever tried to do a
live event, what would that even be?

561
00:33:49,366 --> 00:33:52,936
That wasn't stupid and
something that we both hated.

562
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:54,269
Like what?

563
00:33:54,269 --> 00:33:57,059
What is something that we would
actually both go to, that's a

564
00:33:57,539 --> 00:33:58,739
quote unquote podcast event.

565
00:33:59,069 --> 00:34:04,737
You had that idea of sitting at the, at
the table, like, the change my mind guy.

566
00:34:05,517 --> 00:34:09,327
it's, but it's, you can't make me
hate this no matter what it is.

567
00:34:09,393 --> 00:34:15,225
I gotta say, you make me really mad
with your ability to win the game.

568
00:34:16,155 --> 00:34:16,755
Always.

569
00:34:17,196 --> 00:34:18,066
yet another thing.

570
00:34:18,066 --> 00:34:21,426
Maybe that's the theme of this
podcast, yet another thing that

571
00:34:21,486 --> 00:34:22,626
you're fucking better than me at.

572
00:34:27,066 --> 00:34:31,086
Cliff: It's, it's this or die
through becoming an angry bar.

573
00:34:31,146 --> 00:34:35,886
Like just, just becoming an angry ball of
frustration all the time about everything.

574
00:34:35,916 --> 00:34:37,926
I don't like anything and
everything's getting worse.

575
00:34:38,376 --> 00:34:40,206
Okay, how can that be true for me?

576
00:34:40,206 --> 00:34:44,556
And find a way out of it at the same
time, this is my best idea, but we

577
00:34:44,556 --> 00:34:48,096
will still hold this idea because I
still think it would be hilarious.

578
00:34:48,406 --> 00:34:51,076
And I would in fact
accept this challenge to

579
00:34:51,076 --> 00:34:51,406
Kyle: Yeah.

580
00:34:51,466 --> 00:34:54,646
If anybody's listening and wants
to sponsor that, let us know.

581
00:34:54,684 --> 00:34:55,242
we'll do it.

582
00:34:55,410 --> 00:34:56,238
we'll make a night of it.

583
00:34:56,595 --> 00:34:59,423
we'll do it in New York,
Na or Jones, New York.

584
00:34:59,678 --> 00:35:00,248
Cliff: I would love

585
00:35:00,428 --> 00:35:01,388
Kyle: I would love that too.

586
00:35:02,153 --> 00:35:05,678
Cliff: to that end, like, so starting
to swing more into, into some more

587
00:35:05,678 --> 00:35:09,530
details about the album, and perhaps
we'll come back to this, but one of

588
00:35:09,530 --> 00:35:17,630
the touchstone like documents about
this thing is the source review, right?

589
00:35:17,635 --> 00:35:21,440
The, the five Mike's source
review of Illmatic and

590
00:35:21,665 --> 00:35:23,525
Kyle: five mics and perfect.

591
00:35:23,525 --> 00:35:24,665
10 on Pitchfork.

592
00:35:24,755 --> 00:35:27,005
Name one other thing that has that.

593
00:35:28,545 --> 00:35:29,355
Cliff: Yes.

594
00:35:29,355 --> 00:35:32,475
In a top line sense, like, yes,
everybody thought it was good

595
00:35:32,475 --> 00:35:33,555
and still thinks it's good.

596
00:35:33,555 --> 00:35:33,765
Yeah.

597
00:35:33,795 --> 00:35:34,125
Cool.

598
00:35:34,185 --> 00:35:34,965
Alright, that's helpful.

599
00:35:35,175 --> 00:35:41,630
But like even the review itself from
the source has this energy about

600
00:35:41,630 --> 00:35:44,960
what we're talking about that I
still think you can pull out today.

601
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,170
And there were two bits that I
wanted to draw out of that review

602
00:35:49,170 --> 00:35:54,030
specifically that I think can move us
into more about the music and all that.

603
00:35:54,030 --> 00:35:57,960
But just really impressing upon
anyone who's listening to this right

604
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,790
now who's in the position of, oh, I
could appreciate this record more.

605
00:36:02,850 --> 00:36:04,200
Alright, dig the fuck in.

606
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:07,290
Like this rules, it will pay off.

607
00:36:07,410 --> 00:36:13,379
Here are some things that people really
said at the time, first of all, I think

608
00:36:13,379 --> 00:36:17,879
this duality from just one sentence
in the review helps contextualize a

609
00:36:17,879 --> 00:36:19,319
lot of this even for somebody like me.

610
00:36:19,679 --> 00:36:25,979
Quote your mind races to keep up with NA's
lyricism while your body dips to the beat.

611
00:36:26,669 --> 00:36:29,789
Like we sort of talked about
this phenomenon with Funkadelic.

612
00:36:30,409 --> 00:36:36,885
And, there is this ability for your
intellect, for your ID and your ego to

613
00:36:36,885 --> 00:36:39,525
like dance together this whole record.

614
00:36:39,765 --> 00:36:42,615
Like you don't have to
choose one over the other.

615
00:36:43,245 --> 00:36:47,925
They, they work in perfect harmony
to the degree that it's upsetting

616
00:36:47,955 --> 00:36:51,765
and makes you realize that you rarely
occupy this balance in your life

617
00:36:52,255 --> 00:36:53,025
Kyle: It's thrilling.

618
00:36:53,335 --> 00:36:53,625
Yeah.

619
00:36:54,244 --> 00:36:56,194
Cliff: it's thrilling is
a great way to put it.

620
00:36:56,464 --> 00:37:00,829
So, so then to that end a little
bit of a spoiler, but like the last

621
00:37:00,829 --> 00:37:05,959
part of that review from Source says
quote, the bottom line is this, even

622
00:37:05,959 --> 00:37:09,259
if the album doesn't speak to you
on that personal level, the music

623
00:37:09,259 --> 00:37:11,839
itself is still well worth the money.

624
00:37:12,199 --> 00:37:16,759
If you can't at least appreciate the
value of NA's poetical realism, then

625
00:37:16,759 --> 00:37:18,469
you best get yourself up outta hip hop.

626
00:37:18,469 --> 00:37:19,369
Keep it real baby.

627
00:37:19,891 --> 00:37:22,321
like even that isn't insulting energy.

628
00:37:22,471 --> 00:37:26,521
It's like there's no room for
anything that's different than this.

629
00:37:26,521 --> 00:37:30,601
This is the thing, it's being
real and it's feeling good.

630
00:37:30,601 --> 00:37:33,991
And it's those two things together and
that's what our life is about and culture

631
00:37:33,991 --> 00:37:42,666
and art and like to be able to talk about
a record that it not only was anticipated

632
00:37:42,666 --> 00:37:47,556
and appreciated, but then still now
in reverse has the same amount of.

633
00:37:47,886 --> 00:37:51,286
Cultural impact and appreciation is rare.

634
00:37:51,406 --> 00:37:55,846
Even some of the standout records
that we have talked about that are

635
00:37:55,846 --> 00:38:01,486
just like monumentally changing of
culture, were albums that had to

636
00:38:01,486 --> 00:38:03,976
come to be appreciated over time.

637
00:38:04,006 --> 00:38:07,761
And in some cases were like panned at
the moment, you know, with, with one of

638
00:38:07,761 --> 00:38:12,171
our favorite large examples, constantly
being Led Zeppelin, people didn't

639
00:38:12,171 --> 00:38:13,701
fucking like Led Zeppelin back then.

640
00:38:13,701 --> 00:38:18,381
There's people who still don't like
'em now, but like the appreciation came

641
00:38:18,381 --> 00:38:21,891
over time and this one is like, no dude.

642
00:38:22,371 --> 00:38:23,631
Everyone saw it.

643
00:38:23,991 --> 00:38:27,831
Moment one just, oh shit, this rules.

644
00:38:28,401 --> 00:38:34,761
And to be able to read those comments
and writings from people in the mid

645
00:38:34,761 --> 00:38:39,351
nineties and then now to go back with
every tool that we have and all the

646
00:38:39,351 --> 00:38:43,941
detail we'll spend from here on out
to be able to go back just moment

647
00:38:43,941 --> 00:38:48,081
by moment, detail by detail, and
still go, man, this thing is dense.

648
00:38:48,411 --> 00:38:50,181
Everything I pick out of it is incredible.

649
00:38:50,181 --> 00:38:51,051
It's interesting.

650
00:38:51,171 --> 00:38:53,031
It sends me in another direction.

651
00:38:53,322 --> 00:38:55,632
even if we're just talking
about the lyrics, you know,

652
00:38:55,632 --> 00:38:56,892
I'm not a huge fan of lyrics.

653
00:38:56,892 --> 00:38:58,692
You can't really get around
them in hip hop though.

654
00:38:58,842 --> 00:39:01,212
Like for me, this record alone is like.

655
00:39:01,542 --> 00:39:05,202
Watching an episode of Xavier Renegade
Angel, I like watch 20 seconds and

656
00:39:05,202 --> 00:39:08,712
then have to rewind 10 seconds and then
watch 20 and then rewind 10 against

657
00:39:08,712 --> 00:39:10,302
like, what the fuck did he just say?

658
00:39:10,782 --> 00:39:11,922
That was crazy.

659
00:39:12,312 --> 00:39:13,152
Whoa.

660
00:39:13,382 --> 00:39:18,119
your brain can't even unpack stuff as
fast as he's rolling it out to you.

661
00:39:18,419 --> 00:39:20,699
Even if you understand all the references.

662
00:39:21,029 --> 00:39:25,769
Just so you know, that's probably
all the building up we necessarily

663
00:39:25,769 --> 00:39:30,599
need to do, but like it is really
blown me away how consistent the

664
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:33,749
appreciation for this record in
particular has been and continues

665
00:39:33,869 --> 00:39:40,331
Kyle: I will say though, as a point of
nuance, it didn't go gold for two years.

666
00:39:40,661 --> 00:39:44,711
It sold 300 th 330,000 copies in
its first year, which is a lot.

667
00:39:45,251 --> 00:39:49,841
But to your point, prime CD
time, you know, Nirvana's and

668
00:39:49,841 --> 00:39:51,551
utero came out the same year.

669
00:39:51,881 --> 00:39:56,141
so three 30 is a lot, but not the most.

670
00:39:56,513 --> 00:40:00,233
so it didn't go gold for two years, and
it took nearly 10 years to go platinum.

671
00:40:00,803 --> 00:40:02,393
It was highly anticipated.

672
00:40:02,798 --> 00:40:05,468
In New York and in the
hip hop head community.

673
00:40:05,468 --> 00:40:09,668
And in fact, they discovered
something to the order of like 60,000

674
00:40:09,668 --> 00:40:14,018
bootleg copies of it somewhere,
like in a warehouse in boxes.

675
00:40:14,401 --> 00:40:19,351
so it was hotly anticipated because
of the buildup of a couple of years

676
00:40:19,351 --> 00:40:23,431
for Nas, since live at the Barbecue is
first on live at the barbecue, which

677
00:40:23,431 --> 00:40:25,231
is like kind of a crazy origin story.

678
00:40:25,561 --> 00:40:30,774
and in the community of people, like
I really wanna make the distinction

679
00:40:31,224 --> 00:40:36,774
that hip hop was not the prevalent
cultural form in America at the time.

680
00:40:36,774 --> 00:40:41,994
So to say the hip hop community
loved it did not mean the same thing

681
00:40:42,234 --> 00:40:46,224
at all in 1994, that it does now.

682
00:40:46,554 --> 00:40:46,944
Right?

683
00:40:47,274 --> 00:40:51,804
It also means that's why we have a harder
time agreeing outside of maybe Kendrick on

684
00:40:51,804 --> 00:40:54,324
what the greatest thing of the moment is.

685
00:40:54,654 --> 00:40:59,828
but the wider world took a
while to catch up to nas.

686
00:41:00,158 --> 00:41:04,598
And by the time that they did, by the
time that rap became sort of the dominant

687
00:41:04,598 --> 00:41:12,948
pop music form, by 99 2000, we were
back on that sort of 92, 93 indulgent

688
00:41:13,378 --> 00:41:16,658
type of, like big timers, ludicrous.

689
00:41:17,088 --> 00:41:23,658
Nelly pop rap stuff and Nas was himself
riding different waves by that point.

690
00:41:24,078 --> 00:41:29,278
So there is a, a bit of, and maybe this is
my bias as somebody that was late to the

691
00:41:29,278 --> 00:41:33,638
party, I think there is a bit of like, if,
you know, you know that happened, other

692
00:41:33,638 --> 00:41:38,288
people, smarter people definitely really
knew, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

693
00:41:38,393 --> 00:41:43,353
I want to stress that as to anyone
who thinks they're behind the party

694
00:41:43,353 --> 00:41:48,243
on this or has written it off as like,
yep, I get it, but I don't really care.

695
00:41:48,673 --> 00:41:52,630
There's never a bad time
to catch up on Illmatic.

696
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,291
And this goes in the small Pantheon with
Jeff Buckley's Grace, another 1994 record.

697
00:41:57,291 --> 00:41:58,941
I don't know what the fuck
was in the water, man.

698
00:41:59,513 --> 00:42:00,868
but Illmatic is one of those.

699
00:42:00,868 --> 00:42:01,678
You gotta do it.

700
00:42:02,218 --> 00:42:02,728
You got it.

701
00:42:02,728 --> 00:42:02,998
Got it.

702
00:42:02,998 --> 00:42:03,568
Gotta do it.

703
00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:08,310
So once you do it, cliff,
what do you notice?

704
00:42:08,454 --> 00:42:09,414
What are your impressions?

705
00:42:09,594 --> 00:42:14,825
I think we've, we've started to wade
into that, what's the first listen,

706
00:42:14,825 --> 00:42:16,960
jump out at you stuff then, or

707
00:42:17,065 --> 00:42:17,545
Cliff: Okay.

708
00:42:17,545 --> 00:42:24,535
I totally, I want to use some specific
tracks here, but a few things.

709
00:42:24,965 --> 00:42:30,045
One, I already mentioned the sort of
lyrical density of the whole thing.

710
00:42:30,525 --> 00:42:37,945
This is like a genius.com ass record that
existed a long time before genius.com.

711
00:42:37,945 --> 00:42:41,335
Did I have found myself spending
an increasing amount of time just

712
00:42:41,335 --> 00:42:44,545
like, oh, oh, oh, that's cool.

713
00:42:44,625 --> 00:42:47,805
I thought I got that reference and
there were three more references packed

714
00:42:47,805 --> 00:42:49,455
in there that I had no idea about.

715
00:42:49,455 --> 00:42:50,895
'cause I'm not supposed to know them.

716
00:42:51,255 --> 00:42:52,065
And now I do.

717
00:42:52,389 --> 00:42:58,496
O one was just the, the true sense of time
shift that's happened culturally between

718
00:42:58,496 --> 00:43:03,836
then and now and recognizing that this was
a record that would have been incredibly

719
00:43:03,836 --> 00:43:10,016
perfect for the internet era that existed
well before any of that, you know, really

720
00:43:10,016 --> 00:43:14,606
became what we know it as today, where
a bunch of people who love a thing in,

721
00:43:14,666 --> 00:43:18,146
in, ideally in ideal circumstances, a
bunch of people who love a thing can

722
00:43:18,146 --> 00:43:19,886
come together and appreciate it together.

723
00:43:20,176 --> 00:43:22,726
And then also compete with one
another for who cares about it the

724
00:43:22,726 --> 00:43:24,556
most and knows all of the details.

725
00:43:24,986 --> 00:43:25,436
so.

726
00:43:26,156 --> 00:43:29,756
Having that bit of dissonance
and appreciation even for like,

727
00:43:29,816 --> 00:43:31,256
oh, cool, I get to go back.

728
00:43:31,466 --> 00:43:35,786
I get to experience Illmatic with all
of the benefit of like human history

729
00:43:35,786 --> 00:43:37,886
being uploaded to data centers.

730
00:43:38,186 --> 00:43:39,026
This is cool.

731
00:43:39,592 --> 00:43:43,988
I have this real, I'm at like, I'm
on the King Kong ride at Universal,

732
00:43:43,988 --> 00:43:47,468
but like the King Kong thing is
actually happening outside right now.

733
00:43:47,588 --> 00:43:51,188
And I get to like watch what's happening
instead of it being like a video of

734
00:43:51,188 --> 00:43:55,728
a thing and just the whole thing had
this really cool feeling to it to the

735
00:43:55,728 --> 00:43:59,388
degree that I think, uh, described
to you that like listening to it

736
00:43:59,388 --> 00:44:02,568
at all, especially on repeat, like
we have for however many weeks now,

737
00:44:02,868 --> 00:44:04,788
just feels like private aura farming.

738
00:44:05,218 --> 00:44:11,368
I feel myself becoming cooler listening
to this over and over and over again.

739
00:44:11,458 --> 00:44:14,878
And inside of those, this period
of time where I've been focused

740
00:44:14,878 --> 00:44:18,658
on this record, I've brought it up
to people to like different types

741
00:44:18,658 --> 00:44:24,328
of people just to, just out of raw
curiosity for like, did this ever

742
00:44:24,328 --> 00:44:26,848
enter into your cultural Venn diagram?

743
00:44:27,506 --> 00:44:31,196
I could not describe how differently
different people have been who

744
00:44:31,196 --> 00:44:32,696
were like, oh, Illmatic, yeah.

745
00:44:32,696 --> 00:44:33,326
Hell yeah, dude.

746
00:44:33,716 --> 00:44:34,196
Hell yeah.

747
00:44:34,496 --> 00:44:35,186
Love that thing.

748
00:44:35,516 --> 00:44:35,846
Right?

749
00:44:36,116 --> 00:44:38,676
And just like I would even just
say Nas and they would just,

750
00:44:38,826 --> 00:44:40,506
yeah, like Illmatic, like, yes.

751
00:44:40,536 --> 00:44:40,896
Okay.

752
00:44:41,581 --> 00:44:44,011
so there was this cool sense of.

753
00:44:44,345 --> 00:44:50,585
appreciating a feeling that
approximates how many people love

754
00:44:50,585 --> 00:44:52,025
Outkast when you're in the south?

755
00:44:52,295 --> 00:44:53,315
And that's been cool.

756
00:44:53,915 --> 00:44:55,955
So there was this sort of meta
sensation of the whole thing

757
00:44:55,955 --> 00:44:56,975
that really brought it up to me.

758
00:44:57,585 --> 00:45:02,575
But getting more specific then, you
mentioned this earlier, I really

759
00:45:02,575 --> 00:45:06,475
wanna like dive into this and
maybe get dorky again for a second.

760
00:45:06,645 --> 00:45:15,355
But the, the jazz influence is both
surface level and whe in subterranean.

761
00:45:15,785 --> 00:45:21,079
And I think there are, and we can talk
about obviously plenty, like,  you know,

762
00:45:21,079 --> 00:45:22,699
speaking of surprise moments, right?

763
00:45:23,779 --> 00:45:27,979
2 43 into life's a bitch and
you get a muted trumpet solo.

764
00:45:28,409 --> 00:45:31,089
It's like, okay, alright,
shit, that's tight.

765
00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:33,579
I didn't, okay, I didn't expect that.

766
00:45:33,609 --> 00:45:34,659
That somehow works.

767
00:45:34,659 --> 00:45:35,079
Awesome.

768
00:45:35,139 --> 00:45:39,221
And then it's, not only does it
sound good, that's Nas's fucking dad.

769
00:45:39,941 --> 00:45:41,201
Oh, okay.

770
00:45:41,581 --> 00:45:46,534
And then like, oh, well it's not just
his dad, his dad was himself an important

771
00:45:46,534 --> 00:45:51,934
musician who had a lot of influence and
in history and all that in this sphere.

772
00:45:52,684 --> 00:45:53,284
And so

773
00:45:53,434 --> 00:45:58,114
Kyle: For the listeners, avant-garde
blues and Jazz corn, which is I

774
00:45:58,114 --> 00:46:01,054
think the first time we've invoked
that instrument on this podcast.

775
00:46:01,054 --> 00:46:01,864
Olu Dara?

776
00:46:01,984 --> 00:46:02,254
Cliff: yep.

777
00:46:02,684 --> 00:46:04,288
And even that moment, right?

778
00:46:04,348 --> 00:46:08,638
I'm talking about one moment in one
song with a hook that you probably

779
00:46:08,638 --> 00:46:12,058
recognize, but haven't thought too
much about that song, probably.

780
00:46:12,088 --> 00:46:16,308
And then there's a muted trumpet solo
in here that's it's kind of jazzy,

781
00:46:16,308 --> 00:46:17,838
but it goes with it and it's perfect.

782
00:46:17,838 --> 00:46:21,018
And then you find out who it is, and
then you find out where they come from.

783
00:46:21,048 --> 00:46:23,850
And just every moment is like that.

784
00:46:24,540 --> 00:46:25,260
Oh, I see.

785
00:46:25,260 --> 00:46:26,310
An interesting thing.

786
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,250
Oh, there's eight interesting
things behind this.

787
00:46:29,730 --> 00:46:31,140
If I go and look into it.

788
00:46:31,710 --> 00:46:36,540
And I think what caught me off
guard in a way, as someone who loves

789
00:46:36,660 --> 00:46:42,250
overthinking music for fun, it's
like I've sort of calcified that

790
00:46:42,250 --> 00:46:48,040
idea in hip hop as something that's
only gonna present through samples.

791
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:52,700
And you know, because we've had, you
know, incredible producers and MCs and

792
00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:57,701
whatever over, Decades now who have
used samples as the primary way to say,

793
00:46:57,911 --> 00:47:01,871
this is what this song is about, this
is what I'm trying to invoke, whatever.

794
00:47:02,321 --> 00:47:05,561
And samples do get used on this record.

795
00:47:05,561 --> 00:47:09,011
And a lot of 'em are from old
jazz records, and that's awesome.

796
00:47:09,221 --> 00:47:15,191
But like beyond just, this is a sample of
a jazz record that works well here is like

797
00:47:15,371 --> 00:47:21,581
no, every choice had a multi-layered sort
of workflow that went into it somehow.

798
00:47:22,091 --> 00:47:27,261
And it's our own fault for just
assuming, oh, NAS a New York based

799
00:47:27,261 --> 00:47:30,771
20-year-old making this first record is
not gonna think about any of this shit.

800
00:47:30,801 --> 00:47:31,851
Nope, totally wrong.

801
00:47:32,001 --> 00:47:33,801
Like a hundred percent totally wrong.

802
00:47:34,281 --> 00:47:39,501
someone, whether it was NAS or
this production team, seemed

803
00:47:39,501 --> 00:47:43,831
to think through everything and
make an airtight case for stuff.

804
00:47:44,305 --> 00:47:48,505
so like that was one of 'em that popped
out to me was just, you know, a trumpet

805
00:47:48,505 --> 00:47:51,025
solo, what that means and everything else.

806
00:47:51,355 --> 00:47:55,227
But, even just allowing myself
then to, like think sort of

807
00:47:55,227 --> 00:47:56,877
back and forward in history.

808
00:47:56,877 --> 00:47:57,777
Like we talk about.

809
00:47:58,202 --> 00:48:03,602
Well, okay, the Genesis hits and like
everyone else will tell you, like the

810
00:48:03,602 --> 00:48:05,522
train has a really particular sound.

811
00:48:05,852 --> 00:48:08,402
So like, yeah, I didn't live in
New York for very long, but I

812
00:48:08,402 --> 00:48:10,982
lived there long enough to know
what that sound sounds like.

813
00:48:11,072 --> 00:48:18,072
And so recognizing how thoughtful,
effectively, and Esoteric Noise intro

814
00:48:18,102 --> 00:48:23,432
was and how many people talk about it,
sent me to begin with intellectually,

815
00:48:23,642 --> 00:48:28,592
dude, this dude is doing like Mars Volta
field recordings as an opening track.

816
00:48:28,592 --> 00:48:29,912
And then everyone's
like, yeah, that's tight.

817
00:48:29,912 --> 00:48:34,200
I think about that intro I know
what it sounds like is so killer.

818
00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:38,410
And then, you know, to be able to,
to, hop through these individual

819
00:48:38,410 --> 00:48:43,368
songs and hit, New York state of
mind comes on and that that little

820
00:48:43,848 --> 00:48:48,678
tone at the very beginning that gets
repeated at, before the beat drops in.

821
00:48:49,130 --> 00:48:53,226
now my brain is so far open that I'm
seeing connections I didn't expect.

822
00:48:53,466 --> 00:48:56,406
I'm like, oh, this is almost
exactly like first breath

823
00:48:56,406 --> 00:48:57,756
after coma by Explosions in the

824
00:48:58,086 --> 00:48:58,511
Kyle: Oh ma'am.

825
00:48:58,941 --> 00:49:00,051
Cliff: And like, oh shit.

826
00:49:00,441 --> 00:49:02,091
That would be a really
cool hip hop record.

827
00:49:02,121 --> 00:49:05,988
And just, rolling and rolling through
thoughts like that of just like, man,

828
00:49:06,018 --> 00:49:08,598
this is hitting on areas already.

829
00:49:08,598 --> 00:49:12,333
I'm, I'm two minutes into this
album and I'm thinking about

830
00:49:12,333 --> 00:49:14,913
stuff that I would never would've
associated with any of this.

831
00:49:15,558 --> 00:49:19,569
And, there's probably no quote from
explosions in the sky, the soft

832
00:49:19,569 --> 00:49:22,629
instrumental band that says, we were
inspired by Nas record Illmatic.

833
00:49:23,049 --> 00:49:29,169
And yet the the thought of like
these individual sounds and tones

834
00:49:29,769 --> 00:49:35,989
being so intentionally used in the
songs, then those turning into songs

835
00:49:35,989 --> 00:49:39,559
that other people played on such
repeat that it's just in their soul.

836
00:49:39,619 --> 00:49:44,149
And then seeing it pop up in other places
you don't expect once again, gave me that

837
00:49:44,459 --> 00:49:49,289
really early sensation I get from some
records of just like, I'm sort of in the

838
00:49:49,289 --> 00:49:51,839
presence of something much better than me.

839
00:49:52,259 --> 00:49:53,189
This is cool.

840
00:49:53,549 --> 00:49:56,159
Like I'm ready for everything
else that comes after this.

841
00:49:56,279 --> 00:49:59,069
And then it felt like from there
on out, it was just like, I,

842
00:49:59,579 --> 00:50:02,219
I am just gonna take notes on
everything that pops into my brain.

843
00:50:02,249 --> 00:50:05,729
'cause there's something in
virtually every song that sent

844
00:50:05,729 --> 00:50:07,259
me in an unexpected direction.

845
00:50:07,309 --> 00:50:07,589
Kyle: man.

846
00:50:08,019 --> 00:50:12,519
What I love about the specific
sample from New York state of mind

847
00:50:12,519 --> 00:50:16,309
that you pulled out and using that
as an example of intentionality.

848
00:50:16,759 --> 00:50:23,569
That high pitch noise is from flight time
by Donald Bird, and they made a deliberate

849
00:50:23,569 --> 00:50:30,188
choice in that sample that begins with
the noise of an airplane taking flight.

850
00:50:30,618 --> 00:50:35,358
So it parallels with this album,
beginning with Train sounds,

851
00:50:35,388 --> 00:50:37,488
another transportation thing.

852
00:50:37,998 --> 00:50:42,018
They intentionally did not
incorporate the flight sound.

853
00:50:42,448 --> 00:50:46,717
The iconic flight sound from this record,
in any way because that would imply

854
00:50:46,717 --> 00:50:54,044
an escape sonically from Queensbridge
projects, which Nas wanted to make clear.

855
00:50:54,134 --> 00:50:55,394
There was no escape from.

856
00:50:55,454 --> 00:50:56,954
It was a city unto itself.

857
00:50:56,984 --> 00:51:02,070
And even though Queens is famously where
a big airport is located, there was no

858
00:51:02,070 --> 00:51:04,365
getting out of there if you were in qb.

859
00:51:04,582 --> 00:51:10,079
and that feels like one of those,
dissect podcast type stretches,

860
00:51:10,415 --> 00:51:14,345
but it's the people themselves who
created it have commented on that.

861
00:51:14,775 --> 00:51:18,345
And so that's the kind of example where
you're like, damn, they really did.

862
00:51:18,345 --> 00:51:19,605
It really was that deep.

863
00:51:19,845 --> 00:51:23,115
Since that seems to be a
parlance of so much conversation

864
00:51:23,115 --> 00:51:24,285
on the internet right now.

865
00:51:24,675 --> 00:51:28,185
Everything yes, is political and
yes, everything really is that deep.

866
00:51:28,245 --> 00:51:32,995
If it's good and it it lasts
like this, you can be damn sure

867
00:51:33,475 --> 00:51:34,795
that everything is that deep.

868
00:51:35,185 --> 00:51:40,430
Either it wasn't deep at all, and
they can only unpack it 50 years later

869
00:51:40,430 --> 00:51:44,060
on some unconscious level that they
were channeling some cosmic energy.

870
00:51:44,060 --> 00:51:49,010
I think about like the Stooges, when I
think about stuff like that, it really

871
00:51:49,010 --> 00:51:52,490
is all that deep, but not in any ways
that they consciously chose or realized

872
00:51:52,490 --> 00:51:58,421
at the time they were just channeling
pureed or it was like Nas, And everything

873
00:51:58,421 --> 00:52:04,779
was deliberate and surgical, and maybe
it's the new yorkness of it, but you

874
00:52:04,779 --> 00:52:08,409
know, you talk about a ballplayer
putting on a clinic, it feels like a

875
00:52:08,409 --> 00:52:14,354
hooper like slicing through defenses
and going into the rim over and over.

876
00:52:14,950 --> 00:52:19,449
The two thing, I, I agree with you
that the two, the two elements really

877
00:52:19,449 --> 00:52:21,489
are, I mean, it's hip hop, right?

878
00:52:21,489 --> 00:52:22,899
It's the beats and the lyrics.

879
00:52:23,329 --> 00:52:28,319
I would drill into both things a
little further saying the thing

880
00:52:28,319 --> 00:52:32,939
for me with each respectively are
the multilayered use of samples.

881
00:52:33,629 --> 00:52:36,569
So that was starting to take
Root Q-tip being one of the pro

882
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:42,578
producers on this, DJ Premier, large
professor, couple of other guys.

883
00:52:43,098 --> 00:52:48,538
But Premier, this is really his art form
of putting together multiple layers.

884
00:52:48,538 --> 00:52:53,788
And the way that I kept thinking of it
was like jazz bones and hip hop dressing.

885
00:52:53,818 --> 00:52:56,818
So it is anthropological,
like it references a lot of

886
00:52:56,818 --> 00:52:59,318
things with what it's doing.

887
00:52:59,748 --> 00:53:02,838
The jazz gives it groove,
it gives it movement.

888
00:53:03,268 --> 00:53:06,998
And then you'll see there's a
lot of hip hop samples, from the

889
00:53:06,998 --> 00:53:09,608
first 15 years of the art form.

890
00:53:10,208 --> 00:53:11,648
But it's something like the.

891
00:53:12,008 --> 00:53:14,948
It's yours on the world is yours.

892
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:20,122
or it's, Hollis Groove, the
Run DMC track popping up in

893
00:53:20,122 --> 00:53:21,382
a couple of different places.

894
00:53:21,382 --> 00:53:26,342
There's a couple of Bismarck things
just for like, accents, callbacks,

895
00:53:26,672 --> 00:53:30,902
that sort of thing, but it's, the
DJs sort of scratching it into play

896
00:53:30,962 --> 00:53:32,702
rather than vocal interpolation.

897
00:53:32,702 --> 00:53:39,452
So that, that is like kind of a stylistic
choice doing lap steel versus banjo

898
00:53:40,082 --> 00:53:43,322
on a country and Western record, for
instance, just to give it a certain type

899
00:53:43,322 --> 00:53:45,927
of flavor that's unique to your palette.

900
00:53:45,927 --> 00:53:50,147
Like there's a very tight sonic
palette, but it is, densely layered.

901
00:53:50,147 --> 00:53:53,207
It's not like we found one
good loop and we let it run.

902
00:53:53,207 --> 00:53:56,687
And that was, there's a couple
of tracks like that, but a lot of

903
00:53:56,687 --> 00:54:02,547
these samples have three, four,
even five or six elements to them.

904
00:54:02,757 --> 00:54:03,747
Separate drums.

905
00:54:03,747 --> 00:54:08,827
Separate bass, and like when you really
think about pulling together existing

906
00:54:08,827 --> 00:54:15,000
disparate musical things from different
eras and then layering in a couple of

907
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:19,320
extra layers of hip hop history, like
the Genesis being a great example.

908
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:23,520
You have the wild style dialogue, you
have the subway theme from Wild Sow.

909
00:54:23,700 --> 00:54:24,270
You have.

910
00:54:24,660 --> 00:54:29,100
The main source live at the
Barbecue NAZA's first record.

911
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:33,330
So he's inserting himself into
the sort of anthropological

912
00:54:33,330 --> 00:54:36,580
history, documented and wild style.

913
00:54:36,940 --> 00:54:42,126
And then, the main source record
has like five samples in it.

914
00:54:42,126 --> 00:54:45,426
It's one of many songs that
sampled Bob James's Nautilus.

915
00:54:45,574 --> 00:54:49,834
it's got that great Vicki Anderson sample.

916
00:54:50,164 --> 00:54:54,901
Uh, it's got a Melvin Van Peebles
thing, from Sweet Sweetback.

917
00:54:55,331 --> 00:54:59,119
So there's, always like a layer
after the layer, which is insane for

918
00:54:59,119 --> 00:55:01,039
such like a lean, economical record.

919
00:55:01,441 --> 00:55:04,068
and we talk about sampling
all the time on this.

920
00:55:04,168 --> 00:55:08,018
I would make an argument for one
of the reasons this is the best hip

921
00:55:08,018 --> 00:55:12,498
hop record, is because this is the
best use of samples really anywhere.

922
00:55:12,948 --> 00:55:15,101
Just it's perfect every time.

923
00:55:15,101 --> 00:55:16,391
And there's a variety of it.

924
00:55:16,871 --> 00:55:19,301
It's just done masterfully.

925
00:55:19,301 --> 00:55:24,586
Not always maximally, there'd be none of
the greatest Kanye West beats of all time.

926
00:55:25,066 --> 00:55:29,382
There'd be, I don't know what
the relationship to Dilla is

927
00:55:29,412 --> 00:55:34,572
necessarily on this, but like,
I, I gotta believe that Dilla was

928
00:55:34,572 --> 00:55:36,972
influenced by some of this stuff.

929
00:55:37,357 --> 00:55:41,017
None of the greatness of the 21st century
and where we've come with the art form

930
00:55:41,017 --> 00:55:42,607
would've been possible without this.

931
00:55:43,037 --> 00:55:46,720
And then on the lyrics, I would
say the three things that I

932
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:50,120
noticed, a lot of people talk
about the interior rhyme scheme.

933
00:55:50,750 --> 00:55:55,020
So you have an example like on New
York state of mind, full of black rats

934
00:55:55,020 --> 00:55:58,350
trapped plus the island Rikers is packed.

935
00:55:58,380 --> 00:56:01,290
So trapped, packed from what
I hear in all the stories.

936
00:56:01,290 --> 00:56:05,430
When my people come back black, I'm
living where the knights is Jet black,

937
00:56:05,730 --> 00:56:07,050
the fiends fight to get cracked.

938
00:56:07,050 --> 00:56:09,210
I just max, I dream I can sit back.

939
00:56:09,450 --> 00:56:21,526
So that's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, in
the same two bar, three bar thing.

940
00:56:21,956 --> 00:56:25,736
And so when we talk about density,
like not, not to be too dissect

941
00:56:25,766 --> 00:56:28,446
about it, but it's full of that.

942
00:56:28,876 --> 00:56:36,476
And Eminem gets made fun of by Gen
Z for sort of taking that interior

943
00:56:36,476 --> 00:56:42,186
rhyme to its terminal velocity back
with a backpack it, a backpack back.

944
00:56:42,936 --> 00:56:47,476
But he got it from Nas, uh, you know,
NAS got it from Rakim and other places,

945
00:56:47,476 --> 00:56:50,696
but like again to be 18 years old.

946
00:56:51,461 --> 00:56:56,201
Writing with this density and
dexterity is fucking unbelievable.

947
00:56:56,731 --> 00:57:00,537
As a person who writes professionally
every day, that's beyond

948
00:57:00,537 --> 00:57:01,767
something that can be taught.

949
00:57:02,037 --> 00:57:04,887
You hear it in your brain that way.

950
00:57:05,577 --> 00:57:08,217
People obviously identified
that that was special in him.

951
00:57:08,517 --> 00:57:12,717
So the interior rhyme, you can make a
meal off of that alone with this record.

952
00:57:13,197 --> 00:57:16,047
Just listen for that shit and
become a scholar of the bars.

953
00:57:16,577 --> 00:57:19,898
somebody used English class
words to describe that, that

954
00:57:19,898 --> 00:57:21,728
I hadn't heard in a long time.

955
00:57:21,788 --> 00:57:23,834
Abstinence and in Jamin.

956
00:57:24,140 --> 00:57:27,290
Again, don't want to intellectualize over
intellectualize hip hop, but like damn.

957
00:57:27,290 --> 00:57:28,040
That's crazy.

958
00:57:28,700 --> 00:57:29,710
Cliff: Helpful terms,

959
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:32,738
Kyle: Kendrick got a Pulitzer type stuff,

960
00:57:32,768 --> 00:57:35,988
Cliff: excuse me, while I relearn
Latin to understand what that means.

961
00:57:36,418 --> 00:57:40,768
Kyle: NAS did and jam mint, so
Kendrick could one day get a Pulitzer.

962
00:57:41,593 --> 00:57:46,113
the other two things are a little
more physical, visceral, and

963
00:57:46,113 --> 00:57:49,203
they're how the language, the
use of language makes you feel.

964
00:57:49,533 --> 00:57:53,913
One thing I noticed after a number of
listens is he shoots out of a cannon

965
00:57:54,213 --> 00:58:02,572
on verses starts hard and that stands
out to me again as an outcast fan.

966
00:58:03,097 --> 00:58:07,507
Who's used to a big boy or somebody
like that who's syrupy, who's

967
00:58:07,507 --> 00:58:12,487
behind the beat, who starts slow
plays cool is player shit, pimp C.

968
00:58:12,832 --> 00:58:13,627
Cliff: Lucia Scott.

969
00:58:13,897 --> 00:58:15,577
Kyle: That's right, that's right.

970
00:58:15,821 --> 00:58:18,131
Coming in late, slow, taking my time.

971
00:58:18,131 --> 00:58:20,111
Lighting a blunt, that type vibe.

972
00:58:20,441 --> 00:58:25,781
So coming in hard at the front on the one
is very James Brown, it's very New York.

973
00:58:25,781 --> 00:58:28,001
It's very, let me don't,
let me miss my train.

974
00:58:28,271 --> 00:58:31,361
It's very move faster, get
shot out on the open street.

975
00:58:31,681 --> 00:58:35,731
There is a certain energy that that
comes from, but it's lightning bullshit.

976
00:58:35,731 --> 00:58:37,441
It's got a survivalism to it.

977
00:58:38,131 --> 00:58:42,571
Again, on New York state of mind, which
like I've always said that the most hip

978
00:58:42,571 --> 00:58:45,361
hop song to me is shook one's part two.

979
00:58:45,361 --> 00:58:49,531
And I, I think I continue to stand by
that, but I think New York state of mind

980
00:58:49,531 --> 00:58:53,671
I would put right up there and I think
what started to change my mind was seeing

981
00:58:53,671 --> 00:58:59,641
all of these basketball edits to New York
state of mind and just being like, oh

982
00:59:00,021 --> 00:59:02,783
the art form is perfected on both levels.

983
00:59:03,041 --> 00:59:07,600
So like famously, a number of people
have talked about Nas starting.

984
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,380
So like set aside the genesis is kind of
an intro even though he wraps on that.

985
00:59:11,530 --> 00:59:11,920
Right.

986
00:59:12,130 --> 00:59:15,760
To me, New York state of mind
is track one on this record

987
00:59:17,020 --> 00:59:18,490
and he starts with a pump fake.

988
00:59:19,060 --> 00:59:22,390
That's a real thing that happened
in the studio where he's like, I

989
00:59:22,390 --> 00:59:23,470
don't know how to start this shit.

990
00:59:24,610 --> 00:59:28,090
Then he goes, rappers a monkey flip,
flip 'em with the funky rhythm.

991
00:59:28,090 --> 00:59:30,490
I'd be kicking musician
inflicting composition of pain.

992
00:59:30,610 --> 00:59:32,740
And you're just like,
hold, no, no, no, hold on.

993
00:59:32,740 --> 00:59:34,420
That's the Xavier Renegade angel.

994
00:59:34,690 --> 00:59:36,580
20 seconds that I need to listen to.

995
00:59:36,610 --> 00:59:40,340
10 times where you're like, no,
you're you were fucking playing me.

996
00:59:40,340 --> 00:59:41,300
You're pool sharking.

997
00:59:41,900 --> 00:59:43,850
You're pool sharking
me real hard right now.

998
00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:44,450
Not a scare.

999
00:59:44,980 --> 00:59:46,180
and that's how it starts.

1000
00:59:46,710 --> 00:59:49,380
And it, it punches you right in
the face and it never lets go.

1001
00:59:49,380 --> 00:59:51,240
And we're two guys that
love hardcore records.

1002
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:55,200
And that's boom, you know, right into
the first quarter of Blitz Creek Bop

1003
00:59:55,259 --> 00:59:57,179
right into sailing on by bad brains.

1004
00:59:57,209 --> 01:00:01,709
It hit me in the same way that a CBGBs
band would another New York thing.

1005
01:00:02,239 --> 01:00:03,774
Cliff: Five snare hits and drop

1006
01:00:03,774 --> 01:00:04,224
the beat.

1007
01:00:05,154 --> 01:00:06,714
Kyle: was it five or was it four?

1008
01:00:07,244 --> 01:00:07,454
Cliff: It's

1009
01:00:07,454 --> 01:00:07,814
five.

1010
01:00:08,174 --> 01:00:09,194
It's always five.

1011
01:00:11,354 --> 01:00:16,304
Kyle: And then the last thing is,
you know, using English class words.

1012
01:00:16,834 --> 01:00:23,284
This record is lyrical in the
poetic sense of the word lyrical.

1013
01:00:23,861 --> 01:00:30,109
it evokes movement where it's words
with a physical feeling in your body.

1014
01:00:30,109 --> 01:00:32,479
That's what lyricism means.

1015
01:00:32,479 --> 01:00:38,529
Words arranged in a way to have a
rhythm, to feel like the rhythms

1016
01:00:38,649 --> 01:00:42,579
that pulse through the blood in
our body and the world around us.

1017
01:00:43,099 --> 01:00:47,719
And not to like wax overly
poetic about lyricism as somebody

1018
01:00:47,719 --> 01:00:50,539
whose favorite rappers are.

1019
01:00:50,539 --> 01:00:56,908
Like, not that our love of Project Pat
and my love of Gucci Mane is now well

1020
01:00:56,908 --> 01:01:02,098
documented at this point, and I've
made my case for them as great rappers.

1021
01:01:02,098 --> 01:01:05,398
But this is a different thing entirely.

1022
01:01:05,908 --> 01:01:10,618
And I was very protective against this as
I previously mentioned, because of that.

1023
01:01:11,188 --> 01:01:13,578
But like, this is unfuckwithable.

1024
01:01:14,194 --> 01:01:19,044
you can't even, there's no argument
about this level of performance with

1025
01:01:19,044 --> 01:01:21,234
the, with just to be able to do it.

1026
01:01:21,694 --> 01:01:25,794
And if you wanna argue for
something else, that's fine.

1027
01:01:25,914 --> 01:01:30,684
I did for a long, a long portion of
my life, sit and try to write any

1028
01:01:30,684 --> 01:01:34,674
amount of New York state of mind with
your own brain and the words in it.

1029
01:01:34,974 --> 01:01:35,574
You can't do it.

1030
01:01:35,807 --> 01:01:36,497
You can't do it.

1031
01:01:36,557 --> 01:01:38,177
And if you can, maybe
you'll get a Pulitzer.

1032
01:01:38,783 --> 01:01:42,478
Cliff: Because everything is
more layers like we talked about.

1033
01:01:42,988 --> 01:01:48,726
Let's talk more about what you just said,
especially the bit about coming in fast

1034
01:01:48,726 --> 01:01:50,436
on B one on verses, but there are two.

1035
01:01:52,029 --> 01:01:58,269
inverses that he employs to keep himself
from becoming effectively twista, where he

1036
01:01:58,269 --> 01:02:02,469
would just be like going perpetually the
entire time and just like, hold on, dude.

1037
01:02:02,469 --> 01:02:02,984
Hold on, hold on.

1038
01:02:03,099 --> 01:02:04,569
We'll wait, stop.

1039
01:02:04,914 --> 01:02:05,784
Kyle: Twisted needs.

1040
01:02:05,784 --> 01:02:09,384
The Paul Rudd character is
like, no, don't try to surf.

1041
01:02:09,414 --> 01:02:10,044
Just surf.

1042
01:02:11,064 --> 01:02:13,104
The less you do, the more you do.

1043
01:02:14,004 --> 01:02:16,554
Twist A Koo is gonna be your instincts.

1044
01:02:16,864 --> 01:02:18,244
We're big Twisted fans.

1045
01:02:18,259 --> 01:02:20,044
No, no disrespect intended

1046
01:02:20,089 --> 01:02:20,779
Cliff: yeah, why not?

1047
01:02:20,884 --> 01:02:23,314
Kyle: yeah, maybe not Big Twisted fans.

1048
01:02:23,314 --> 01:02:24,904
We are Twisted Respecters.

1049
01:02:26,824 --> 01:02:27,284
Cliff: I'm a twist.

1050
01:02:27,379 --> 01:02:28,099
I acknowledge her.

1051
01:02:28,099 --> 01:02:28,669
Yes,

1052
01:02:35,419 --> 01:02:40,999
I, mean, I certainly can't do it and it
does sound cool, but like this is one of

1053
01:02:41,119 --> 01:02:42,499
a thousand examples of what we're saying.

1054
01:02:42,589 --> 01:02:45,409
Like the rewards you get from
paying too much attention

1055
01:02:45,409 --> 01:02:46,849
actually pay off on this record.

1056
01:02:47,059 --> 01:02:51,979
So two things he does to make
coming in fast on Beat one work.

1057
01:02:52,159 --> 01:02:56,357
One is next time you listen through
this record, not you, Kyle, necessarily,

1058
01:02:56,357 --> 01:02:59,747
you probably noticed this, but anyone
listening to this one of, one of

1059
01:02:59,747 --> 01:03:02,267
our suggestions, I'm gonna go ahead
and give you for your next active.

1060
01:03:02,267 --> 01:03:04,787
Listen, pay attention to
what he does on the chorus.

1061
01:03:05,897 --> 01:03:06,917
He's almost never there.

1062
01:03:07,610 --> 01:03:12,020
He came in on beat one of that verse
and he lights everything on fire and

1063
01:03:12,020 --> 01:03:14,210
then he totally takes four steps back.

1064
01:03:14,210 --> 01:03:16,940
And it's just like, does anybody
else wanna do this real fast?

1065
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:18,710
We're just gonna like throw up a hook.

1066
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:19,670
Pretty cool.

1067
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:24,740
Like down to, and then, so if
that feels too generic, like take

1068
01:03:24,770 --> 01:03:26,780
the world is yours, for instance.

1069
01:03:27,170 --> 01:03:32,250
Okay, so here's even just a small painting
of all the details involved in this.

1070
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:36,030
We've talked about the world, is yours
feeling pretty inspirational and reminding

1071
01:03:36,030 --> 01:03:40,650
us that the nineties did not feel like
we were about to have to buy the dip

1072
01:03:40,650 --> 01:03:42,690
of human civilization or whatever.

1073
01:03:42,690 --> 01:03:46,998
But like the world is yours
as a Scarface reference.

1074
01:03:47,073 --> 01:03:47,493
Kyle: Mm-hmm.

1075
01:03:48,198 --> 01:03:51,928
Cliff: So like, there's already
a sort of interesting, okay,

1076
01:03:52,048 --> 01:03:55,478
it's okay, it is for all people.

1077
01:03:55,478 --> 01:03:57,998
It's also about this, which is not that.

1078
01:03:58,328 --> 01:04:02,218
Okay so we've got this interesting
concept just baked into the

1079
01:04:02,218 --> 01:04:03,838
phrase of the song to begin with.

1080
01:04:03,928 --> 01:04:08,968
And the hook, the chorus itself, like
I'm mentioning NAZA's, mostly not there.

1081
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:13,110
Pete Rock, one of the producers
on this record sang the

1082
01:04:13,110 --> 01:04:15,090
chorus on the World is yours.

1083
01:04:15,300 --> 01:04:18,930
Simply because Nas said in the
studio, I want you to sing it.

1084
01:04:19,110 --> 01:04:21,030
He said, no thank you.

1085
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:22,980
And then Nas made him do it.

1086
01:04:22,980 --> 01:04:24,810
And that's the like, that's the chorus.

1087
01:04:25,692 --> 01:04:30,152
so there's one bit of it
where like Nas front loads.

1088
01:04:30,682 --> 01:04:31,942
All of that energy.

1089
01:04:32,167 --> 01:04:36,127
it's like thinking you're driving a
fast car from the sixties and then

1090
01:04:36,127 --> 01:04:38,047
sitting inside an electric car now.

1091
01:04:38,317 --> 01:04:41,407
And it's like, dude,
unfortunately they cannot compare.

1092
01:04:41,617 --> 01:04:44,947
It doesn't matter if it's
uncool, it's way faster.

1093
01:04:45,127 --> 01:04:47,887
You go from zero to whatever
the hell very quickly.

1094
01:04:48,493 --> 01:04:54,283
so he eases up on the chorus, which
gives you that sensation of him coming

1095
01:04:54,283 --> 01:04:58,573
right back in every time, hard, fast,
immediately as soon as possible.

1096
01:04:59,083 --> 01:05:04,573
So in like a musical sense, he gives
you time to miss him, which is cool.

1097
01:05:05,293 --> 01:05:10,483
And then also there are occasional tracks,
and I will call out one time for your

1098
01:05:10,483 --> 01:05:16,813
mind as one where he kind of does the
opposite vibe wise for the rest of the

1099
01:05:16,813 --> 01:05:17,233
song.

1100
01:05:17,473 --> 01:05:22,053
One Time for Your Mind gets described
both by Nas and the producers as basically

1101
01:05:22,053 --> 01:05:26,337
just one quote was Na Said, honestly,
this song was just, Hey, we're chilling.

1102
01:05:26,767 --> 01:05:27,097
Like

1103
01:05:27,202 --> 01:05:30,622
Kyle: Large, large professor
called it, large professor called

1104
01:05:30,622 --> 01:05:32,032
it some shorty to the store.

1105
01:05:32,032 --> 01:05:32,482
Shit.

1106
01:05:32,912 --> 01:05:33,152
Cliff: Yeah.

1107
01:05:35,432 --> 01:05:41,318
So it's acknowledgement of the pace
again, we, we never wanna put too

1108
01:05:41,318 --> 01:05:45,398
much like intentionality onto things
we don't know are intentional, but

1109
01:05:45,398 --> 01:05:49,508
they're sitting here telling us that
they chose vibes for different points.

1110
01:05:50,018 --> 01:05:54,128
And then again, that circles back
around, I would say even in my

1111
01:05:54,128 --> 01:05:57,998
limited New York experience, to the
cadence of what living there is.

1112
01:05:57,998 --> 01:06:00,488
Like, yes, you're going fast.

1113
01:06:00,728 --> 01:06:04,388
You also stop and sit inside
a bodega for a few minutes.

1114
01:06:04,658 --> 01:06:09,098
Like you're getting a sandwich, you're
getting a bagel, you're getting a coffee.

1115
01:06:09,368 --> 01:06:13,988
And it's like, go, go, go wait for
four minutes and talk to this dude

1116
01:06:14,078 --> 01:06:17,438
who you've never talked to before who
honestly doesn't give a fuck about you.

1117
01:06:17,708 --> 01:06:20,438
But like you're both right in
front of each other's faces.

1118
01:06:20,438 --> 01:06:21,518
There's nothing else you can do.

1119
01:06:21,578 --> 01:06:28,148
And for three minutes you have this weird
time dilation thing that's happening where

1120
01:06:28,148 --> 01:06:32,718
you're just like packing in a social,
encounter, and then you're immediately

1121
01:06:32,718 --> 01:06:36,468
back to whatever you were doing, because
actually you were in a rush that whole

1122
01:06:36,468 --> 01:06:41,983
time anyway, and you had somewhere to go
this like stretch and push and pull of

1123
01:06:41,983 --> 01:06:44,413
the, not, not only of the time of it, but.

1124
01:06:44,868 --> 01:06:49,717
Trains and taxis and walking are
all different speeds and take you to

1125
01:06:49,717 --> 01:06:53,737
different places in different amounts
of time with different feelings to them.

1126
01:06:54,097 --> 01:06:58,917
And once again, like the cadence of
the record and of the different songs,

1127
01:06:59,307 --> 01:07:04,977
it's just like, man, it feels like
being there, like it feels lived in.

1128
01:07:05,397 --> 01:07:13,208
And the expression of what feels
unex expression is like palpable on a

1129
01:07:13,208 --> 01:07:18,198
lot of these songs to a degree that,
again, I didn't expect to appreciate

1130
01:07:18,228 --> 01:07:21,648
even knowing that that's exactly what
I'd appreciate about these songs.

1131
01:07:22,078 --> 01:07:27,478
Kyle: I love that idea of time
dilation, and I think you're exactly

1132
01:07:27,478 --> 01:07:32,516
right and you also just kind of
blew my mind with the, other people

1133
01:07:32,666 --> 01:07:34,616
doing most of the choruses thing.

1134
01:07:34,706 --> 01:07:36,776
This is a very hooky record.

1135
01:07:37,206 --> 01:07:40,596
I think about like a
one love One love one.

1136
01:07:40,626 --> 01:07:41,526
And that's Q-tip.

1137
01:07:41,956 --> 01:07:45,436
You think about one time for
your mind, that's Grand Wizard.

1138
01:07:45,616 --> 01:07:50,086
You have Nas chiming in, bouncing
off of it, but that's Grand Wizard.

1139
01:07:50,506 --> 01:07:53,866
You have obviously the world
is yours, a very famous hook.

1140
01:07:54,296 --> 01:07:54,746
yeah.

1141
01:07:54,746 --> 01:08:00,686
Like half of that record or more, I
guess Represent is another example,

1142
01:08:00,978 --> 01:08:01,632
Cliff: Halftime.

1143
01:08:01,827 --> 01:08:07,875
Kyle: very, halftime is an, yeah,
all of those, very group involved.

1144
01:08:08,305 --> 01:08:12,381
And I don't really, I don't really
think about the guest spots.

1145
01:08:12,381 --> 01:08:16,451
I don't really think about this
as like a guest spot record maybe

1146
01:08:16,451 --> 01:08:18,819
'cause Nas shines so hard on it.

1147
01:08:19,175 --> 01:08:24,045
AZ is great, e everybody's great
on it, but there's sort of a, you

1148
01:08:24,045 --> 01:08:27,585
I guess expect that because of
the level of performance from nas.

1149
01:08:27,585 --> 01:08:30,705
Nobody out shines him for sure.

1150
01:08:31,095 --> 01:08:38,205
Like I just saw TI was on Manny Fresh,
a juveniles podcast and he was talking

1151
01:08:38,205 --> 01:08:42,315
about the only time he ever got his ass
whooped on a song was by Andre 3000 on.

1152
01:08:42,315 --> 01:08:42,915
Sorry.

1153
01:08:43,345 --> 01:08:46,975
And that just does not
happen on this record.

1154
01:08:47,575 --> 01:08:50,575
And in fact, I don't think there's
any song where Nas is on with somebody

1155
01:08:50,575 --> 01:08:52,555
else where he gets out barred.

1156
01:08:53,107 --> 01:08:58,327
There are a lot of songs by great artists
where you're like, somebody had something

1157
01:08:58,327 --> 01:09:03,317
to prove and they smoked the heavyweight
chant or they went toe to toe with 'em.

1158
01:09:03,317 --> 01:09:06,497
There's a lot of instances of
that and that's one of the things

1159
01:09:06,497 --> 01:09:09,917
that makes hip hop such a great
and thrilling art form 'em.

1160
01:09:10,269 --> 01:09:11,398
' cause people are hungry.

1161
01:09:11,992 --> 01:09:17,822
Nobody, I don't think anybody gets a
punch in on Nas, but they all enhance it.

1162
01:09:17,882 --> 01:09:22,532
That I, there is something to maybe
the spirit of the way those producers

1163
01:09:22,592 --> 01:09:26,882
all showed up that informs the vibe
of the proceeding like, I'm gonna

1164
01:09:26,882 --> 01:09:31,602
do great, but not in the typical
hip hop spirit of competition.

1165
01:09:32,022 --> 01:09:34,722
We know we can't kill him,
so we're not gonna try.

1166
01:09:36,046 --> 01:09:38,896
Cliff: It's probably worth kind of
saying directly to you to that point,

1167
01:09:39,496 --> 01:09:42,466
you know, something relatively well
known about this record but that

1168
01:09:42,646 --> 01:09:44,146
is important enough to be said.

1169
01:09:44,566 --> 01:09:52,066
This arguably began the era of All Star
Dream team production teams on an album

1170
01:09:52,196 --> 01:09:52,486
Kyle: Yeah.

1171
01:09:52,706 --> 01:09:56,851
WA was not the first famously
like that had started happening.

1172
01:09:57,211 --> 01:10:00,331
There was also stuff like the
Native Tongues Collective from

1173
01:10:00,331 --> 01:10:02,641
which we got Q-Tip and Tribe.

1174
01:10:03,031 --> 01:10:06,151
So like we've already got a handful
of years and examples of it.

1175
01:10:06,151 --> 01:10:09,451
But this, I would say like sort
of cemented it, I think is the

1176
01:10:09,451 --> 01:10:10,829
point that you're trying to make.

1177
01:10:10,848 --> 01:10:11,473
Cliff: Yeah, totally.

1178
01:10:11,832 --> 01:10:16,197
and is a good kind of rubric to
remember what you're listening to.

1179
01:10:16,197 --> 01:10:21,087
So that's, that's different
producers who were focused on

1180
01:10:21,087 --> 01:10:22,887
different tracks compiling the album.

1181
01:10:22,887 --> 01:10:26,757
So that's across dj, premier, Pete
Rock, who we already mentioned, large

1182
01:10:26,757 --> 01:10:28,647
Professor Q-Tip, who we mentioned in LES.

1183
01:10:29,467 --> 01:10:29,687
And.

1184
01:10:30,367 --> 01:10:34,537
So that's just sort of an important, I
think, cultural and historical moment

1185
01:10:34,537 --> 01:10:38,707
to keep in mind because this would then
go on to, anytime something seismic

1186
01:10:38,707 --> 01:10:43,087
happens in music and people don't totally
understand it, you attract the, I would

1187
01:10:43,087 --> 01:10:47,297
like to copy that people and people
who like to copy other people without

1188
01:10:47,297 --> 01:10:51,137
getting the gist of it, only know to
look at the outside of what you've done.

1189
01:10:51,137 --> 01:10:55,907
So therefore, you know, we got a lot of
like, oh, I would like to be a big hip

1190
01:10:55,907 --> 01:10:59,987
hop star and therefore I will go get three
to 10 different producers for this album.

1191
01:11:00,077 --> 01:11:04,577
And that's probably the secret
ingredient of making a good record.

1192
01:11:05,037 --> 01:11:07,347
No, but here it worked.

1193
01:11:08,517 --> 01:11:09,117
Just rad.

1194
01:11:10,208 --> 01:11:13,879
Kyle: Yeah, you, you think about
how much that was happening

1195
01:11:13,879 --> 01:11:15,769
by the turn of the century,

1196
01:11:16,459 --> 01:11:16,849
Cliff: Yep.

1197
01:11:16,879 --> 01:11:23,109
Kyle: and if I think about the records
that I would like buy or download, there

1198
01:11:23,109 --> 01:11:29,745
was no cohesion was the problem, was like
there, there wasn't even, The rooms in the

1199
01:11:29,745 --> 01:11:31,635
house weren't even talking to each other.

1200
01:11:32,175 --> 01:11:37,155
You know, one was a McDonald's
fun house and one, one was like

1201
01:11:37,155 --> 01:11:42,799
an Italian restaurant, and it, it
would be like crazy vibe shifts

1202
01:11:42,799 --> 01:11:44,509
that were at odds with each other.

1203
01:11:44,939 --> 01:11:48,909
And on the one hand you respect
artists for taking risks and trying

1204
01:11:48,909 --> 01:11:52,639
different things and trying to stretch
themselves, but I remember that

1205
01:11:52,639 --> 01:11:54,709
sensation, and I'm sure you do too.

1206
01:11:55,069 --> 01:11:59,149
You know, when we were coming of age
and being like, this shit doesn't work.

1207
01:11:59,149 --> 01:12:02,839
Like we were in a totally different
place mentally five seconds ago.

1208
01:12:03,472 --> 01:12:06,202
it's, it was jarring too often.

1209
01:12:06,832 --> 01:12:11,592
These people involved in this
record, again, don't wanna assume

1210
01:12:11,592 --> 01:12:15,640
too much intentionality, but they
were definitely going for something.

1211
01:12:15,850 --> 01:12:20,960
And there's enough interviews with Nas
from around that time and from later

1212
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:25,100
where he was like, no, we knew we
were on the cusp of something seismic.

1213
01:12:25,530 --> 01:12:30,100
And every time they felt like, oh,
we got, you know, we got another one

1214
01:12:30,130 --> 01:12:31,840
that just sort of self reinforced.

1215
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:35,360
So they knew it was a bit of a watershed
moment and I think they dialed in

1216
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:38,017
on, some consistency accordingly.

1217
01:12:38,447 --> 01:12:39,707
Do you have a favorite?

1218
01:12:40,318 --> 01:12:42,626
I think it's a lot to ask a favorite song.

1219
01:12:42,626 --> 01:12:44,006
Do you have a favorite beat?

1220
01:12:44,222 --> 01:12:44,762
On this.

1221
01:12:44,762 --> 01:12:48,619
'cause I do think, like I was
talking to you before recording

1222
01:12:49,249 --> 01:12:54,524
oh man, I've never regarded DJ
Premier as seriously as I needed to.

1223
01:12:54,524 --> 01:12:59,984
And really, frankly, it wasn't until
the Run the Jewels song, the ul la la

1224
01:12:59,984 --> 01:13:05,866
song, where I was like, oh, I actually
really do like a lot of stuff that

1225
01:13:05,866 --> 01:13:09,436
he's made and I really love Gang Star.

1226
01:13:09,885 --> 01:13:12,174
So do you have a, favorite
beat on this record?

1227
01:13:12,604 --> 01:13:14,974
Cliff: Yeah, but I don't know if
the reason is stupid, but I'll

1228
01:13:14,974 --> 01:13:16,384
still answer the question anyway.

1229
01:13:16,804 --> 01:13:23,714
It's one love and it's because the
beat just sits on top of what I can

1230
01:13:23,954 --> 01:13:27,014
currently only discern to be a clean bass

1231
01:13:27,249 --> 01:13:27,669
Kyle: Mm-hmm.

1232
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:32,020
Cliff: just directly piped
into the song beat on top.

1233
01:13:32,625 --> 01:13:33,945
there are two reasons I like it, right?

1234
01:13:33,945 --> 01:13:39,495
I can, I cannot extract the lyrical
content from the beat, and it is

1235
01:13:40,185 --> 01:13:44,925
inherently a part of why I like it here,
but trying to just speak about that music.

1236
01:13:45,915 --> 01:13:46,785
Couple of things.

1237
01:13:46,905 --> 01:13:48,865
One is any.

1238
01:13:50,409 --> 01:13:56,000
Chef's Kiss beat on top of clean base
tone for Cliff Seal will always be,

1239
01:13:56,450 --> 01:13:58,310
oh, that's, that's player's ball.

1240
01:13:58,740 --> 01:13:59,940
And I love Player's Ball,

1241
01:14:00,300 --> 01:14:05,036
like the, probably thinking about
songs that were played before we

1242
01:14:05,036 --> 01:14:08,736
were ever able to track the number
of times we played a song, probably

1243
01:14:08,761 --> 01:14:11,308
most played song for me of all time.

1244
01:14:12,532 --> 01:14:17,182
I don't think I could calculate how much
I listened to that in particular and those

1245
01:14:17,182 --> 01:14:24,229
records back then, but, so it's made me
appreciate not only the Simple Good Beat

1246
01:14:24,229 --> 01:14:31,065
plus base combo, but then we talked a
ton about subwoofers on the NERD episode.

1247
01:14:31,425 --> 01:14:35,715
I learned because of Player's Ball
and my subwoofers, I started learning

1248
01:14:35,715 --> 01:14:39,735
more about how those sounds differed
and how they work together and what

1249
01:14:39,735 --> 01:14:43,095
happens and what it sounds like when
they get brought out and why certain

1250
01:14:43,095 --> 01:14:46,005
aspects of that song were really loud
when the bass would do certain things.

1251
01:14:46,515 --> 01:14:52,149
So, point being this not only reminded
me of that, but you know, one thing

1252
01:14:52,149 --> 01:14:55,629
that Kyle, me and you talked about sort
of outside the podcast and I'll sort

1253
01:14:55,629 --> 01:14:59,559
of funnel in here now, I don't think
I've experienced a record in modern

1254
01:14:59,559 --> 01:15:05,769
times that seemed, that sounded so
different on recent headphones versus.

1255
01:15:06,199 --> 01:15:09,679
Older, non, like computer
chipped headphones that

1256
01:15:09,679 --> 01:15:10,969
aren't playing with the EQ by

1257
01:15:11,149 --> 01:15:11,439
Kyle: Yeah.

1258
01:15:12,111 --> 01:15:16,881
Cliff: the way that the base works
sounds so different in, for instance,

1259
01:15:16,881 --> 01:15:23,351
like modern AirPods versus a straight
open back and preamp type situation

1260
01:15:23,811 --> 01:15:25,101
which I appreciated both of them.

1261
01:15:25,101 --> 01:15:29,571
But, so that beat was, to me,
encapsulating so many of the cool

1262
01:15:29,571 --> 01:15:33,501
things that you can do when you
just play with two or three little

1263
01:15:33,501 --> 01:15:35,421
things and do them really well.

1264
01:15:35,851 --> 01:15:43,006
And then to sit on top of it with,
the song as a whole series of letters

1265
01:15:43,436 --> 01:15:48,626
detailing the life events of people
after they got outta prison is sick.

1266
01:15:48,702 --> 01:15:50,313
that's just a cool idea, man.

1267
01:15:50,463 --> 01:15:54,513
It's not a song about anything and
it's about everything at the same time.

1268
01:15:54,513 --> 01:15:58,983
And it's people and it's real
and it's in its actual and

1269
01:15:58,983 --> 01:16:01,083
meaningful and came from a thing.

1270
01:16:01,563 --> 01:16:06,513
And all of that just has such a visceral
quality to it that I, I've ended up

1271
01:16:06,513 --> 01:16:09,093
loving probably that song as much as any.

1272
01:16:09,523 --> 01:16:14,293
Kyle: Do you have any speculation why
you think it is that this record varies

1273
01:16:14,293 --> 01:16:17,475
so much in different types of speakers?

1274
01:16:17,997 --> 01:16:18,897
I agree with you.

1275
01:16:18,897 --> 01:16:24,327
I didn't observe it until you
pointed it out, but the idea, I

1276
01:16:24,327 --> 01:16:28,663
think it probably fluctuates more
than anything we've talked about.

1277
01:16:28,995 --> 01:16:33,747
Recently, you know, we've speaker checked
in a bunch of different environments,

1278
01:16:34,177 --> 01:16:37,889
and we're on the third year of this
calendar and still practicing like

1279
01:16:37,889 --> 01:16:39,209
active listening of these things.

1280
01:16:39,209 --> 01:16:42,635
So we have a deep familiarity
with like, pretty well everything

1281
01:16:42,635 --> 01:16:44,045
we are covering at this point.

1282
01:16:44,045 --> 01:16:50,025
And I feel like we have observed a
pretty good deal of consistency actually

1283
01:16:50,025 --> 01:16:54,225
in a number of the, I think about like
an odetta where the clarity is sort

1284
01:16:54,225 --> 01:17:00,045
of the thing and contrast that with
this where different details jump out.

1285
01:17:00,075 --> 01:17:03,735
Like do you have any technical
or sonic observations about

1286
01:17:03,735 --> 01:17:05,355
why you think that might be?

1287
01:17:05,785 --> 01:17:10,645
Cliff: Yes, but I will simultaneously
sound smart to half the audience

1288
01:17:10,645 --> 01:17:12,445
and really dumb to the other half.

1289
01:17:12,565 --> 01:17:13,645
So let's find out.

1290
01:17:14,233 --> 01:17:20,293
It's something about compression,
it's something about the way that

1291
01:17:20,293 --> 01:17:27,293
we now, through headphone EQs and
through what noise cancellation is

1292
01:17:27,293 --> 01:17:33,263
attempting to do, all those sorts of
things, we seem to put more of an.

1293
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:39,335
In human type of compression, a thing
that doesn't occur naturally in a room.

1294
01:17:40,235 --> 01:17:45,355
We seem to produce and master our
music more like that now because we are

1295
01:17:45,355 --> 01:17:51,025
often, I think, listening in more and
more closed environments, headphones

1296
01:17:51,055 --> 01:17:54,865
pointed right back into our brains
versus speakers that are pointed out

1297
01:17:54,985 --> 01:18:00,055
into a general area and like, completely
obvious statement, the early and mid

1298
01:18:00,055 --> 01:18:05,605
nineties were still heavily a bring your
big boombox outside level thing, right?

1299
01:18:06,159 --> 01:18:12,159
I think there's a lot of that combined
with, so far as I can tell Nas didn't,

1300
01:18:12,429 --> 01:18:16,899
hasn't taken the bait on like, Hey,
let's remaster your tracks and release

1301
01:18:16,899 --> 01:18:18,129
them to people who might pay us

1302
01:18:18,129 --> 01:18:19,509
money thing.

1303
01:18:20,129 --> 01:18:26,829
And so we get to experience a non-modern
mastering necessarily of an older one.

1304
01:18:27,129 --> 01:18:30,579
And I, so I think that's part of
what it is, but it something about

1305
01:18:30,579 --> 01:18:35,566
that combination of things, plus
somehow these specific samples and

1306
01:18:35,566 --> 01:18:39,166
beats and tones that they were using
on this record really brings it out.

1307
01:18:39,452 --> 01:18:45,863
I cannot express how much, almost
louder every beat sounds on certain

1308
01:18:45,863 --> 01:18:50,393
songs in different contexts compared
to other ones where it just sounds.

1309
01:18:50,753 --> 01:18:55,763
Never bad to be clear, never
bad or wrong, but you know, more

1310
01:18:55,763 --> 01:18:58,243
classic or traditionally mixed.

1311
01:18:58,603 --> 01:19:04,093
Kyle: One Love is a specifically good
example of that, where on a really good

1312
01:19:04,093 --> 01:19:08,773
pair of headphones, sort of a, a classic.

1313
01:19:09,403 --> 01:19:17,735
Older, not digitally altered one, one
loves drums, have so much reverb and depth

1314
01:19:17,735 --> 01:19:19,835
and stuff that you don't really hear.

1315
01:19:19,835 --> 01:19:21,395
It kind of gets lost in the mid range.

1316
01:19:21,825 --> 01:19:26,600
I, I ask because, you know,
Bob Power just passed away.

1317
01:19:27,030 --> 01:19:31,950
Bob Power was responsible for the
sound of so much of the hip hop

1318
01:19:31,950 --> 01:19:38,923
and r and b that we love Soul Query
and stuff, native tongue stuff.

1319
01:19:39,310 --> 01:19:43,660
if Q-Tip and Quest love are devastated
about the loss of an engineer,

1320
01:19:43,660 --> 01:19:46,845
producer guy, then that's a big deal.

1321
01:19:47,315 --> 01:19:52,860
So a lot of these people talked about Bob
Power as someone who taught them to draw

1322
01:19:52,860 --> 01:19:56,760
out the sonic elements to that were in
their head to the best of their ability.

1323
01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:03,900
And there's something about 1994 and
learning, sort of developing the craft of

1324
01:20:03,900 --> 01:20:11,860
this multi-layered sample thing into newer
and quickly evolving pieces of technology.

1325
01:20:12,340 --> 01:20:14,860
You know, getting everything
from, like, getting different

1326
01:20:14,860 --> 01:20:20,530
qualities of rips of these samples,
layering them in certain ways.

1327
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:24,360
I have to imagine that between
the capture, where they're

1328
01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:25,710
learning new techniques.

1329
01:20:26,140 --> 01:20:32,450
Be engineering, mixing and mastering of
those layers, which is something between

1330
01:20:32,450 --> 01:20:37,760
live capture and music concrete and,
you know, it's, it's old and new and

1331
01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:42,870
everything between, and then vocal takes
on microphones of different qualities

1332
01:20:43,335 --> 01:20:49,601
and stuff captured in some whatever
studios, some really nice studios, you

1333
01:20:49,601 --> 01:20:55,001
know, he's got some Columbia records
budget and studio attraction for this.

1334
01:20:55,001 --> 01:20:59,571
But a lot of hip hop doesn't
necessarily get that treatment.

1335
01:21:00,389 --> 01:21:03,647
so it's, again, this is all speculative
and it's the kind of thing that we

1336
01:21:03,647 --> 01:21:09,047
try to avoid, but I'm so fascinated
by this idea of the variability in it.

1337
01:21:09,688 --> 01:21:12,478
And it's not the only thing we've
ever talked about with lots of

1338
01:21:12,478 --> 01:21:15,868
elements and pastiche and, and
interesting types of layering.

1339
01:21:16,223 --> 01:21:20,984
You maybe I go back and listen to
Togo Mago, something like a can or

1340
01:21:20,984 --> 01:21:24,014
something like a tangerine dream with
a lot of electronic sequencing to

1341
01:21:24,014 --> 01:21:27,354
think about, well these were moments
where they were having breakthroughs

1342
01:21:27,444 --> 01:21:29,908
in composition and engineering.

1343
01:21:30,671 --> 01:21:34,881
I also thought a little bit about Mingus
and all the disparate elements that he

1344
01:21:34,881 --> 01:21:38,421
put in on that record and just the volume.

1345
01:21:38,841 --> 01:21:41,601
Of all that, and there's a
lot of density to that too.

1346
01:21:42,031 --> 01:21:43,261
I don't know anyone listening.

1347
01:21:43,261 --> 01:21:45,601
I would definitely be interested
for like, what's the technical

1348
01:21:45,601 --> 01:21:47,059
take on the variability?

1349
01:21:47,059 --> 01:21:47,419
It does.

1350
01:21:47,449 --> 01:21:49,789
I will say like, that is a rabbit hole.

1351
01:21:49,789 --> 01:21:50,659
You can go down.

1352
01:21:51,313 --> 01:21:55,423
you don't have to, but it, it
does, it makes it really enjoyable.

1353
01:21:55,423 --> 01:22:00,075
That different context unveil a lot
of different surprises constantly.

1354
01:22:00,667 --> 01:22:00,847
Cliff: Yep.

1355
01:22:00,907 --> 01:22:05,497
And there's probably a non-zero overlap
with the loudness wars, which we've

1356
01:22:05,497 --> 01:22:07,027
talked about in the past as well.

1357
01:22:07,507 --> 01:22:12,677
Just a whole lot of stuff that evolved
the way that we expect to hear music that

1358
01:22:12,677 --> 01:22:14,237
comes out in an interesting way here.

1359
01:22:14,667 --> 01:22:16,887
I would love though you mentioned Mingus.

1360
01:22:17,545 --> 01:22:19,405
I've been holding in a
particular jazz thing.

1361
01:22:19,735 --> 01:22:24,132
I think we often try to give
suggestions for active listening,

1362
01:22:24,132 --> 01:22:25,212
what to pay attention to.

1363
01:22:25,568 --> 01:22:27,488
kind of naturally already
covered a few, but.

1364
01:22:28,039 --> 01:22:36,346
One that I think is personally is really
cool and kind of connected me to a lot

1365
01:22:36,346 --> 01:22:39,766
of the different hip hop artists that
we've mentioned specifically around

1366
01:22:39,766 --> 01:22:43,126
cadence, rhyming scheme and delivery.

1367
01:22:44,223 --> 01:22:47,013
maybe I'm stretching it here,
but this is how I would frame it.

1368
01:22:47,643 --> 01:22:51,123
You call jazz the bones earlier

1369
01:22:51,948 --> 01:22:53,088
Kyle: The bones are their money.

1370
01:22:56,943 --> 01:22:58,683
Cliff: I think that's a really
cool way to think of it.

1371
01:22:59,013 --> 01:23:05,303
A specific illustration of that
he does a cadence in his delivery

1372
01:23:05,303 --> 01:23:11,331
here that I feel like manifested in
so many songs that you don't know

1373
01:23:11,331 --> 01:23:13,341
how to hear it now, but it's jazz.

1374
01:23:13,881 --> 01:23:17,541
And on top of it being jazz it, you
even mentioned Togo Mago a second ago.

1375
01:23:17,541 --> 01:23:19,371
Like this comes into play.

1376
01:23:19,791 --> 01:23:24,021
There's a sort of free jazz
thing in some of the cadences.

1377
01:23:24,321 --> 01:23:26,961
I'm gonna give you examples
and possibly embarrass myself,

1378
01:23:26,961 --> 01:23:28,641
but this is important to me.

1379
01:23:29,391 --> 01:23:34,821
There's a cadence he'll do that is
jazzy in the sense that it leaves

1380
01:23:34,821 --> 01:23:38,871
the beat and comes right and comes
back to it in a moment that you

1381
01:23:38,871 --> 01:23:40,281
don't really know how to expect.

1382
01:23:40,371 --> 01:23:45,061
And what I mean by that is
specifically listening for, he'll do

1383
01:23:45,061 --> 01:23:50,071
this, COTA, dta, dta dta, dta, dta.

1384
01:23:50,341 --> 01:23:53,818
Now I'm very sorry for doing
that with my mouth, but like,

1385
01:23:53,818 --> 01:23:54,868
I'm gonna give some examples.

1386
01:23:54,868 --> 01:24:00,328
But on top of it, before we, I even give
other lyrical examples, it connects to,

1387
01:24:01,018 --> 01:24:07,889
I mentioned like Togo Mago, like the
free jazz beat drumming of even something

1388
01:24:07,889 --> 01:24:11,369
like the Mars Volta where they'll have
interludes and they'll do drumming.

1389
01:24:11,369 --> 01:24:12,629
Thomas PRI will do Dun

1390
01:24:16,289 --> 01:24:22,019
and like it plays with the beat and
adds and removes them at seemingly

1391
01:24:22,019 --> 01:24:26,459
random intervals fast enough for
your brain not to be totally sure.

1392
01:24:26,459 --> 01:24:31,049
Are we still on the beat
or did we find a sub beat?

1393
01:24:31,569 --> 01:24:35,769
but before you know it, it's back
on one and you kind of go, oh

1394
01:24:35,769 --> 01:24:37,659
shit, okay, how did that happen?

1395
01:24:37,929 --> 01:24:40,869
And like, for the record, that's
exactly pretty much what jazz is.

1396
01:24:40,899 --> 01:24:43,389
If you enjoy jazz, it's
going, wait a minute, hold it.

1397
01:24:43,569 --> 01:24:44,079
Oh shit.

1398
01:24:44,109 --> 01:24:44,769
Okay, cool.

1399
01:24:45,369 --> 01:24:46,869
Over and over and over again.

1400
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:48,039
So.

1401
01:24:48,339 --> 01:24:53,709
I think there is a, not just appreciation
for like a fast and smooth delivery,

1402
01:24:54,159 --> 01:24:57,099
but seeing that cadence in particular.

1403
01:24:57,309 --> 01:25:01,182
So we've mentioned, outcast
really heavily, obviously

1404
01:25:01,468 --> 01:25:03,328
so like examples of that.

1405
01:25:03,508 --> 01:25:07,408
We even referenced this earlier, but an
example of what I mean by this cadence,

1406
01:25:07,408 --> 01:25:11,038
so big boy's first verse on sores.

1407
01:25:11,038 --> 01:25:14,878
So clean, he does the little intro we
joked about, right, sir Lucia Scott.

1408
01:25:15,028 --> 01:25:18,598
But then he goes, Gator Belts and Patti
Melts and Monte Carlos and El Dorados.

1409
01:25:18,598 --> 01:25:21,270
I'm waking up out on my slumber
feeling light rot, like okay

1410
01:25:21,270 --> 01:25:22,650
wait, where is that beat?

1411
01:25:22,740 --> 01:25:26,250
And you hear it 'cause the beat
is so fresh, so clean Ritz, right?

1412
01:25:26,250 --> 01:25:27,675
But like he's

1413
01:25:27,725 --> 01:25:28,715
Kyle: windshield wiper.

1414
01:25:28,715 --> 01:25:29,975
It's It's parabolic.

1415
01:25:29,975 --> 01:25:30,185
Yeah.

1416
01:25:30,185 --> 01:25:30,365
Yeah.

1417
01:25:30,365 --> 01:25:31,715
He swings in and out of it.

1418
01:25:31,715 --> 01:25:32,105
Yeah.

1419
01:25:32,625 --> 01:25:33,165
Cliff: yeah.

1420
01:25:33,165 --> 01:25:38,955
But it's, and it also never ne or doesn't
necessarily have to be in equilibrium.

1421
01:25:39,315 --> 01:25:42,170
Sometimes they'll add two
or three beats on one part.

1422
01:25:42,659 --> 01:25:47,129
what's amazing about it, and is
jazzy about it, is it plays with

1423
01:25:47,129 --> 01:25:51,539
how your brain is perceiving the
time and the cadence of that music.

1424
01:25:51,779 --> 01:25:54,719
Because if you start active listening
to it, eventually you'll go,

1425
01:25:54,719 --> 01:25:57,299
wait a minute, did we add beats?

1426
01:25:57,389 --> 01:25:58,649
Did we divide them?

1427
01:25:58,884 --> 01:25:59,304
Kyle: Mm-hmm.

1428
01:25:59,744 --> 01:26:04,304
Cliff: Did we stretch into another
line entirely and it gives you, all

1429
01:26:04,304 --> 01:26:09,614
of a sudden you've got this, and maybe
not everybody's like me, but you get

1430
01:26:09,614 --> 01:26:13,904
this sort of mka kick pattern level
thing where it's just like, oh my

1431
01:26:13,904 --> 01:26:16,646
God, where does this actually plug in?

1432
01:26:16,676 --> 01:26:20,756
Oh shit, he hits the beat crazy there,
but he's not doing it over here.

1433
01:26:20,966 --> 01:26:26,576
And he sort of adds these things that give
you a cadence and an a wobbliness to it.

1434
01:26:27,146 --> 01:26:34,426
And when I realized that this was
likely part of the genesis of a lot

1435
01:26:34,426 --> 01:26:38,536
of that cadence and a lot of what
came after it, I couldn't unhear it.

1436
01:26:38,716 --> 01:26:41,836
I could hear it in
outcast songs after that.

1437
01:26:42,127 --> 01:26:46,272
another kind of weirdish deep
cut that I've mentioned, I

1438
01:26:46,272 --> 01:26:47,412
think on another episode before.

1439
01:26:47,412 --> 01:26:49,832
But you may have mentioned, I
think run the Jewels earlier.

1440
01:26:49,832 --> 01:26:55,745
So like LP really specifically, back when
he did this EP called, uh, I'll Sleep

1441
01:26:55,745 --> 01:26:58,235
When You're Dead, which I loved so much.

1442
01:26:58,725 --> 01:26:58,815
But.

1443
01:27:00,165 --> 01:27:03,300
Kyle: I might have been born yesterday,
sir, but I stayed up all night.

1444
01:27:03,730 --> 01:27:05,410
Cliff: Right, right, right, right, right.

1445
01:27:05,560 --> 01:27:05,860
Yeah.

1446
01:27:06,220 --> 01:27:09,700
But he, inside of that,
he does a bunch of this.

1447
01:27:09,700 --> 01:27:12,340
Like verse two is like, the
whole design got my mind crying.

1448
01:27:12,340 --> 01:27:13,480
If I'm lying, I'm dying.

1449
01:27:13,761 --> 01:27:18,886
You drop right into this stuff and
you have to trust the mc to guide

1450
01:27:18,886 --> 01:27:21,016
you back to the underlying beat.

1451
01:27:21,706 --> 01:27:25,906
And if the whole reason, this is
interesting to me, not just Jazzy in

1452
01:27:25,906 --> 01:27:29,356
general, but one of the things I opened
with at the top of this episode was

1453
01:27:29,356 --> 01:27:33,556
from the source review where it says,
your mind races to keep up with NA's

1454
01:27:33,556 --> 01:27:35,566
lyricism while your body dips to the beat.

1455
01:27:35,926 --> 01:27:40,336
If the mc doesn't know how to bring
your dumb ass back to the beat,

1456
01:27:40,516 --> 01:27:42,946
your body can't dip to it at all.

1457
01:27:43,396 --> 01:27:49,276
It's gonna be like listening to art that
you don't groove to, which could be cool

1458
01:27:49,516 --> 01:27:51,706
and I appreciate weird artistic stuff.

1459
01:27:51,796 --> 01:27:56,266
Fine, but it's not groovy
for those two things.

1460
01:27:56,266 --> 01:27:59,776
To stay orbiting each other
constantly throughout this record

1461
01:28:00,851 --> 01:28:06,191
is a level of musicianship that
cannot be over appreciated.

1462
01:28:06,491 --> 01:28:07,691
I think it is.

1463
01:28:07,781 --> 01:28:10,991
It is a detail that's blown
me away on every listen.

1464
01:28:11,171 --> 01:28:11,711
Kyle: I love that.

1465
01:28:12,256 --> 01:28:16,237
I think the, the bringing it back
thing is another astute point.

1466
01:28:16,267 --> 01:28:18,667
Without that, you get that.

1467
01:28:19,097 --> 01:28:22,187
What am I supposed to be looking
at feeling that you get standing in

1468
01:28:22,187 --> 01:28:23,777
front of a big painting at the museum.

1469
01:28:24,227 --> 01:28:25,937
What am I supposed to get from this?

1470
01:28:26,367 --> 01:28:30,367
The hook, as Blues traveler
famously said, brings you back.

1471
01:28:30,776 --> 01:28:32,906
it's important, like it
works for a reason, right?

1472
01:28:32,906 --> 01:28:33,566
People fight.

1473
01:28:33,626 --> 01:28:37,916
People have fought the form for the
entirety of the three, three minute

1474
01:28:37,916 --> 01:28:43,736
pop songs existence, but it works for a
reason because we are rhythmic creatures

1475
01:28:44,396 --> 01:28:49,357
and our hearts beat in a circular
way, like circles are the shape of

1476
01:28:49,357 --> 01:28:51,607
the world, literally and spiritually.

1477
01:28:51,607 --> 01:28:53,947
So bringing stuff back really works.

1478
01:28:54,277 --> 01:28:57,937
I also love, you know, I wonder how
many people have ever invoked the Mars

1479
01:28:57,937 --> 01:29:03,711
Volta in relation to nas, but the first
time that the weird beat where you have

1480
01:29:03,711 --> 01:29:08,251
to count it just to figure out like,
when is the one gonna come back around?

1481
01:29:08,881 --> 01:29:15,751
I was aware Passingly of Shuga in high
school, but Mond Sickness was the first

1482
01:29:15,751 --> 01:29:21,191
time that that feeling that I ever wanted
to hang with a rhythm that I didn't

1483
01:29:21,191 --> 01:29:24,071
understand wasn't a jazz kid growing up.

1484
01:29:24,581 --> 01:29:26,981
You go back and listen to the beginning
of this podcast, you can sort of

1485
01:29:26,981 --> 01:29:29,371
chart my journey as a jazz lover.

1486
01:29:30,424 --> 01:29:31,444
but I remember the,

1487
01:29:35,914 --> 01:29:37,774
and I can hear, I can feel it.

1488
01:29:37,774 --> 01:29:39,544
I've internalized it now, but.

1489
01:29:40,174 --> 01:29:41,164
It was years.

1490
01:29:41,164 --> 01:29:43,924
It was like, oh, it was a a
four and then a two, and then

1491
01:29:43,924 --> 01:29:45,034
a three, and then a whatever.

1492
01:29:45,034 --> 01:29:49,859
And then another famously Cliff
esque band, the Chariot, that's a

1493
01:29:49,859 --> 01:29:51,539
Josh Skogen move, you know, do it.

1494
01:29:51,940 --> 01:29:55,150
And almost in a James Brownie way,
you know, hit me six times now, hit

1495
01:29:55,150 --> 01:29:56,950
me two times, it'll hit me five times.

1496
01:29:56,950 --> 01:29:57,340
You know?

1497
01:29:57,866 --> 01:30:05,963
I love that is, um, you find jazz
headspace in very non jazz places.

1498
01:30:06,393 --> 01:30:08,816
Uh, it's a very, cliff esque thing.

1499
01:30:08,816 --> 01:30:13,286
And I think you have probably
subconsciously brought me to jazz in

1500
01:30:13,286 --> 01:30:18,405
that way, through things that people
would describe themselves as jazz.

1501
01:30:18,405 --> 01:30:21,490
So as they say in letter, Kenny,
I appreciates that about you.

1502
01:30:22,163 --> 01:30:23,628
Cliff: I love encouraging people with it.

1503
01:30:23,958 --> 01:30:25,398
Jazz is at once.

1504
01:30:25,398 --> 01:30:29,538
There are no rules and you're not
good enough to be doing this, and I

1505
01:30:29,538 --> 01:30:31,248
love both of those things together.

1506
01:30:31,453 --> 01:30:32,953
Kyle: You can't handle the freedom.

1507
01:30:33,043 --> 01:30:33,463
Yeah.

1508
01:30:35,818 --> 01:30:38,848
feel free to, if there are
other sonic things that you

1509
01:30:38,848 --> 01:30:40,048
wanna point out, please do.

1510
01:30:40,048 --> 01:30:42,876
But I, you mentioned the,
where do you go from here?

1511
01:30:43,387 --> 01:30:45,247
Certainly you can always
go back to outcast.

1512
01:30:45,247 --> 01:30:49,567
We're never gonna not say that
to you, but tell me some other

1513
01:30:49,567 --> 01:30:51,659
things you think people should do.

1514
01:30:52,303 --> 01:30:52,993
Cliff: Oh man.

1515
01:30:53,839 --> 01:30:58,069
Yeah, that's, that's an exasperated sigh
only because it's acknowledgement that,

1516
01:30:58,069 --> 01:31:01,399
once again, this isn't the Hardcore
History podcast, so I do not have

1517
01:31:01,399 --> 01:31:07,594
six hours, so I will try to do this
quickly, but like, there, there are

1518
01:31:07,624 --> 01:31:12,169
varying amounts of how much a record
sends us in different directions.

1519
01:31:12,369 --> 01:31:15,569
I think we, again, we
always try to show you the.

1520
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:18,700
Nexus n of everything.

1521
01:31:18,850 --> 01:31:23,080
Thi this one though, sort
of like the, the nexus.

1522
01:31:23,380 --> 01:31:27,280
This is like the, the FD
internet hub in Oslo or whatever.

1523
01:31:27,280 --> 01:31:32,230
Like you cannot get anywhere else without
going through this for the most part.

1524
01:31:32,590 --> 01:31:38,290
And in that sense, because of anything
from who did this record, who produced

1525
01:31:38,290 --> 01:31:40,780
it, the samples that they used,
the people who would sample this

1526
01:31:40,780 --> 01:31:44,350
afterwards, the people Nas was inspired
by the people he was surrounded by.

1527
01:31:44,470 --> 01:31:49,510
Every direction has 10 years
worth of exploration to do.

1528
01:31:50,110 --> 01:31:56,749
So I think that rules, first maybe
the easiest, there's the sort of crate

1529
01:31:56,749 --> 01:31:58,879
digger mentality of the whole thing.

1530
01:31:59,299 --> 01:32:00,379
Samples on samples.

1531
01:32:00,379 --> 01:32:01,219
Where did they come from?

1532
01:32:01,219 --> 01:32:01,939
Where did they go?

1533
01:32:01,939 --> 01:32:04,099
I'm guessing you might touch
on some of that yourself.

1534
01:32:04,399 --> 01:32:06,679
So I just wanna call that out
as like, yes, I think that's

1535
01:32:06,679 --> 01:32:07,789
a legitimate place to go.

1536
01:32:07,789 --> 01:32:08,869
It's really fascinating.

1537
01:32:09,269 --> 01:32:14,369
I found myself being a rock him
fan after this record in a way

1538
01:32:14,369 --> 01:32:16,199
that I did not expect before.

1539
01:32:16,499 --> 01:32:22,364
It was not hard to, to immediately start
appreciating those records which ruled.

1540
01:32:22,874 --> 01:32:26,004
So that direction back and forth works.

1541
01:32:26,266 --> 01:32:31,796
I do think though, secondly,
against all odds, this reinvigorated

1542
01:32:31,796 --> 01:32:34,046
my appreciation for lyricism.

1543
01:32:34,476 --> 01:32:40,436
As much as I famously dislike
it in a lot of music it is not

1544
01:32:40,436 --> 01:32:42,626
just used to great effect here.

1545
01:32:42,896 --> 01:32:49,106
And not just inspired and inspiring, but
like, I was just trying to give one sample

1546
01:32:49,106 --> 01:32:54,926
of like, if you listen and let the cadence
kind of get in your bones a little bit

1547
01:32:54,956 --> 01:33:00,996
more like an earworm like past the hook
and into like I can sort of, I could start

1548
01:33:01,056 --> 01:33:03,096
wrapping this if I wanted to type thing.

1549
01:33:03,996 --> 01:33:09,756
You'll start to feel those rhythmic
moves in different places you didn't

1550
01:33:09,756 --> 01:33:16,356
know to feel them because of what an
explosive change NAS specifically was

1551
01:33:16,356 --> 01:33:21,066
in terms of, I mean, there are plenty of
interviews that basically just like put

1552
01:33:21,066 --> 01:33:27,106
Jay-Z on blast and they're like, well
before this it was just x, y, Z cadence.

1553
01:33:27,106 --> 01:33:30,796
And then after that JD Jay-Z
actually got smooth and just like

1554
01:33:30,796 --> 01:33:32,476
straight up started copying Nas.

1555
01:33:32,666 --> 01:33:36,756
I don't know if that's like an
academically defensible position but

1556
01:33:36,756 --> 01:33:40,056
you can see it, and especially if
you let yourself see it that way, you

1557
01:33:40,056 --> 01:33:41,226
can see what they're talking about.

1558
01:33:41,406 --> 01:33:42,846
You understand where
people are coming from.

1559
01:33:42,846 --> 01:33:46,866
Like people heard this record and shifted
the way that they were making music

1560
01:33:47,106 --> 01:33:50,466
because they were like, that's actually
cooler and I think that that's gonna work.

1561
01:33:50,990 --> 01:33:52,340
so there was the.

1562
01:33:53,105 --> 01:33:58,235
To me, it goes past just like, who was
the best rapper or whatever, and goes

1563
01:33:58,235 --> 01:34:02,045
into like, okay, if we were gonna do
the sort of semi lame thing of like,

1564
01:34:02,315 --> 01:34:06,035
everyone gets a participation trophy
for being a good rapper, what is the

1565
01:34:06,035 --> 01:34:07,895
special thing that you bring to the table?

1566
01:34:08,165 --> 01:34:09,785
Like it actually works here.

1567
01:34:10,290 --> 01:34:14,070
it really can give you like, here's
what Nas did and here's what NAS

1568
01:34:14,220 --> 01:34:17,910
didn't do that someone else did
that you're looking for that.

1569
01:34:17,940 --> 01:34:19,050
That's what Biggie did.

1570
01:34:19,050 --> 01:34:19,980
That's what Pock did.

1571
01:34:20,160 --> 01:34:22,050
That is what happened on the West Coast.

1572
01:34:22,100 --> 01:34:25,417
That's what ha what happened in
southern rap, it's funk over there.

1573
01:34:25,417 --> 01:34:26,977
It's jazz over here.

1574
01:34:27,097 --> 01:34:31,117
Like in giving that sense
of like, oh wait a minute.

1575
01:34:31,207 --> 01:34:36,187
I have to remember pre-internet
people around each other are

1576
01:34:36,187 --> 01:34:37,417
the people around each other.

1577
01:34:37,417 --> 01:34:40,867
They're the ones inspiring each other
to be better and different or whatever.

1578
01:34:41,197 --> 01:34:45,157
East Coast and West Coast was
like a new emergent thing coming

1579
01:34:45,157 --> 01:34:46,747
basically from television.

1580
01:34:47,387 --> 01:34:52,307
And so just that deeper appreciation
for, you know, I've always loved

1581
01:34:52,397 --> 01:34:56,297
a fast wordy rapper, always.

1582
01:34:56,597 --> 01:35:00,437
So there's so much for me to
look in here or look into here.

1583
01:35:00,437 --> 01:35:07,737
But again, specifically going downstream
of this and trying to just start going.

1584
01:35:07,797 --> 01:35:08,247
Okay.

1585
01:35:08,577 --> 01:35:08,997
All right.

1586
01:35:09,488 --> 01:35:12,698
Biggie Wu-Tang Pac Mob Deep.

1587
01:35:13,495 --> 01:35:14,095
Over here.

1588
01:35:14,095 --> 01:35:16,915
Then we've talked about, you know,
all the, all the other exploration

1589
01:35:16,915 --> 01:35:22,122
we've already done around tribe and
everything else that happened there.

1590
01:35:22,122 --> 01:35:27,531
And like, okay, that's, similar
but different and the lyricism

1591
01:35:27,741 --> 01:35:30,951
is different within those
things for particular reasons.

1592
01:35:30,951 --> 01:35:33,291
And why and where did it come from?

1593
01:35:33,621 --> 01:35:41,027
Like it just really engaged the full
on fucking dork part of me about MCs.

1594
01:35:41,327 --> 01:35:45,887
Like I, I would've usually, I think,
found myself on the producer side of

1595
01:35:45,887 --> 01:35:50,447
this sort of interest when it comes
to hip hop records, because I have for

1596
01:35:50,447 --> 01:35:54,347
better or worse, a really ridiculous
standard for being interested in lyrics.

1597
01:35:54,347 --> 01:35:59,165
And, but this is, this is sort
of like my World series man.

1598
01:35:59,195 --> 01:36:04,985
Like, so everything about it excited me,
took me on to other records, reminded

1599
01:36:04,985 --> 01:36:09,755
me of things that fascinated me in other
hip hop songs that were, you know, in

1600
01:36:09,755 --> 01:36:13,775
another category entirely from the other
stuff I've talked about liking, you

1601
01:36:13,775 --> 01:36:17,525
know, we mentioned like blog and cloud
rap and stuff that's like on another

1602
01:36:17,525 --> 01:36:20,225
fucking planet compared to what this is.

1603
01:36:20,500 --> 01:36:24,515
And for me to realize that I as a
person who doesn't give myself very much

1604
01:36:24,515 --> 01:36:30,215
credit for loving hip hop enough, have
like such distinct and discreet loves

1605
01:36:30,365 --> 01:36:32,705
for such different types of hip hop.

1606
01:36:33,035 --> 01:36:36,215
Kind of reinvigorated me
again around this stuff.

1607
01:36:36,525 --> 01:36:41,317
And it's just, it's made me excited
to do the, like clicking through

1608
01:36:41,317 --> 01:36:45,832
playlist and related artists 1
million times on every music a PII

1609
01:36:45,837 --> 01:36:48,157
can find to start building stuff up.

1610
01:36:48,487 --> 01:36:52,392
And I've just not had a bad time no
matter what I've tried to do from here

1611
01:36:52,831 --> 01:36:53,371
And for you.

1612
01:36:55,329 --> 01:36:58,089
Kyle: I agree with
everything that you said.

1613
01:36:58,622 --> 01:37:01,419
I love the thought of you
listening to, to Rakim.

1614
01:37:04,044 --> 01:37:09,054
'cause that starts to get he's the
front door back to the like, huh?

1615
01:37:12,119 --> 01:37:13,349
He's not that.

1616
01:37:14,159 --> 01:37:18,689
But then he starts to get to, you know,
then I picture you snowboarding too.

1617
01:37:19,694 --> 01:37:25,083
Some, some goofy early eighties shit,
that I know you would never listen to

1618
01:37:25,083 --> 01:37:31,696
beyond just like clinical appreciation
value, nor would I very much for that

1619
01:37:31,696 --> 01:37:31,996
matter.

1620
01:37:32,586 --> 01:37:32,876
Cliff: Yeah.

1621
01:37:33,347 --> 01:37:38,719
Kyle: so I think there's a few things
here absolutely on the lyricism bit.

1622
01:37:39,259 --> 01:37:41,449
I don't have your high bar.

1623
01:37:41,539 --> 01:37:44,468
I just want people who are
interesting and unique.

1624
01:37:45,233 --> 01:37:49,553
I talk a lot about the Prince principle,
like there's only one Gucci Mane ever.

1625
01:37:49,883 --> 01:37:55,913
I'm not going out looking for the
next person that I can put on a list

1626
01:37:55,973 --> 01:38:01,825
to argue about, but it did remind me
that there are a lot of people who

1627
01:38:01,825 --> 01:38:03,535
are a mix of those two archetypes.

1628
01:38:03,535 --> 01:38:06,265
They are interesting and they
are one of one, and they are

1629
01:38:06,265 --> 01:38:07,885
technically very competent.

1630
01:38:08,343 --> 01:38:12,583
So I mentioned recently the
latest ASAP Rocky record.

1631
01:38:12,983 --> 01:38:17,703
Another New Yorker has his own
style, some grit and some jazz.

1632
01:38:18,103 --> 01:38:21,823
I still think and will say until
the day that I die of black thought

1633
01:38:21,853 --> 01:38:24,133
is one of the best ever to do it.

1634
01:38:24,741 --> 01:38:28,311
He's never made anything
as perfect as illmatic.

1635
01:38:28,711 --> 01:38:30,061
So that's its own thing.

1636
01:38:30,571 --> 01:38:34,711
But if you want the density
and the intricacy, good time

1637
01:38:34,711 --> 01:38:36,001
to revisit some black thought.

1638
01:38:36,401 --> 01:38:40,919
I found myself wanting to listen to
a lot of MF Doom again after this.

1639
01:38:41,341 --> 01:38:44,276
Cliff: Man, he's about to get that
Avengers knock on SEO, and I'm

1640
01:38:44,276 --> 01:38:46,526
excited for him even posthumously.

1641
01:38:46,631 --> 01:38:47,291
Kyle: yeah, yeah.

1642
01:38:47,596 --> 01:38:52,467
and the anniversary of Mad Villain
just came back around, in March.

1643
01:38:52,527 --> 01:38:56,637
So that's always a good reminder for me.

1644
01:38:57,308 --> 01:38:58,658
you mentioned lp.

1645
01:38:59,408 --> 01:39:03,626
I think we also gotta mention Ka as
like another distinctly New York.

1646
01:39:03,896 --> 01:39:05,246
Incredibly hard.

1647
01:39:05,606 --> 01:39:07,796
Definitely influenced by Nas person.

1648
01:39:08,516 --> 01:39:09,506
I thought about Dead Preez.

1649
01:39:10,571 --> 01:39:14,916
Cliff: I was literally putting a pin
in where, can I interrupt Kyle to make

1650
01:39:14,916 --> 01:39:19,296
sure I bring back up how this made
me listen to Less Gift Free again?

1651
01:39:19,836 --> 01:39:20,286
Oh yeah.

1652
01:39:20,316 --> 01:39:25,776
If for no other reason than realizing
that Illmatic got sampled on a Jay-Z

1653
01:39:25,776 --> 01:39:29,946
track called Dead Presidents too, and I
just happened to put on dead Preez the

1654
01:39:29,946 --> 01:39:31,626
other day sort of for a different reason.

1655
01:39:31,626 --> 01:39:34,716
And then once again had
the like, oh, we are one

1656
01:39:35,676 --> 01:39:38,646
Kyle: NA Nas, NAS himself would
be the first to tell you that it

1657
01:39:38,646 --> 01:39:40,386
is in fact bigger than hip hop.

1658
01:39:41,027 --> 01:39:43,337
we both like to show
love to Vince Staples.

1659
01:39:43,637 --> 01:39:47,807
I think there's a lot of the like
attitude and the intentionality in

1660
01:39:47,807 --> 01:39:50,087
Vince's projects that come through.

1661
01:39:50,087 --> 01:39:55,197
Certainly the sense of place,
Ramona Park, south Central, like

1662
01:39:55,287 --> 01:39:57,777
all that you get from Vince's music.

1663
01:39:57,777 --> 01:39:58,587
Very visual.

1664
01:39:59,281 --> 01:40:00,511
there's a lot of Earl sweat.

1665
01:40:00,511 --> 01:40:06,151
Like Earl gets into these fractualize
sort of artsy thing, but he's

1666
01:40:06,151 --> 01:40:08,551
got the poet laureate father.

1667
01:40:08,601 --> 01:40:13,731
Nas has the avant-garde jazz
father and is taking things in

1668
01:40:13,731 --> 01:40:15,351
an interesting new direction.

1669
01:40:15,846 --> 01:40:19,956
There's not a single Earl project
to me that has the focus of this.

1670
01:40:20,006 --> 01:40:21,146
They're lean, they're good.

1671
01:40:21,146 --> 01:40:22,226
I love Earl sweatshirt.

1672
01:40:22,226 --> 01:40:27,086
I think he is incredible, but
I don't think there's a single

1673
01:40:27,086 --> 01:40:29,156
generational Earl record.

1674
01:40:29,516 --> 01:40:32,366
But if you, if you want to take it a
little more in the avant direction,

1675
01:40:32,366 --> 01:40:36,821
I think he's as good as he gets
thought about Danny Brown, like

1676
01:40:37,241 --> 01:40:40,151
punk rock version of all of this.

1677
01:40:40,181 --> 01:40:41,561
I thought about Saba.

1678
01:40:42,213 --> 01:40:47,673
My brother Cody would be mad if I went
the whole time on a great hip hop episode

1679
01:40:47,673 --> 01:40:49,323
and didn't talk about an artist like Saba.

1680
01:40:49,923 --> 01:40:54,598
I thought about JID, the main
thing that I thought about.

1681
01:40:55,034 --> 01:41:00,524
doesn't have the density of NA's
lyrics, but certainly has the grit.

1682
01:41:00,794 --> 01:41:02,954
And the new Yorkness is Griselda.

1683
01:41:03,464 --> 01:41:06,494
It's Conway, the machine,
Benny, the butcher.

1684
01:41:07,364 --> 01:41:10,874
All the associated people
around that orbit that pop

1685
01:41:10,874 --> 01:41:12,104
up on some of those projects.

1686
01:41:12,104 --> 01:41:16,709
The Boldy, James, the
Davies, Griselda is Buffalo.

1687
01:41:16,769 --> 01:41:20,999
They are upstate, but they
are so motherfucking New York.

1688
01:41:21,347 --> 01:41:24,392
They're the hardest out in
a lot of ways right now.

1689
01:41:25,015 --> 01:41:28,555
so they're a bit of the
Wu-Tang, a bit of the Nas.

1690
01:41:29,051 --> 01:41:32,411
They're so sick, they're so, so sick.

1691
01:41:32,693 --> 01:41:35,543
and again, there's, there's a bit
of the collective, you know, we

1692
01:41:35,543 --> 01:41:38,677
talk about Soul Query and Native
Tongues, all that odd future.

1693
01:41:39,217 --> 01:41:42,881
We love a collective big roving
gang of people that are all talented

1694
01:41:42,881 --> 01:41:44,141
on their own and better together.

1695
01:41:44,739 --> 01:41:45,939
couple of other things.

1696
01:41:46,562 --> 01:41:50,368
One, go down the DJ Premier
Rabbit Hole for sure.

1697
01:41:50,518 --> 01:41:51,508
Listen to gang star.

1698
01:41:51,508 --> 01:41:52,648
Gang star is so good.

1699
01:41:53,351 --> 01:41:56,201
go down a turntableist rabbit hole.

1700
01:41:56,832 --> 01:42:02,587
you mentioned collision course, which
makes me think of the other Lincoln Park.

1701
01:42:02,663 --> 01:42:07,012
Cinematic Universe Project
The Executioners that had

1702
01:42:07,012 --> 01:42:08,512
that song with Mike Shenoda.

1703
01:42:09,194 --> 01:42:09,764
great Cut.

1704
01:42:09,794 --> 01:42:15,512
Chemist, the executioners are, I
think Rakim is mandatory listening.

1705
01:42:16,352 --> 01:42:19,152
I think Cool g Rap is mandatory listening.

1706
01:42:19,478 --> 01:42:25,061
we did not mention Russell Simmons of
Def Jam somewhat famously passing on

1707
01:42:25,145 --> 01:42:30,275
signing Nas to Def Jam saying that he
just sounded like Cool g Rap Times has

1708
01:42:30,275 --> 01:42:32,525
proven what a dumb ass Russell Simmons is.

1709
01:42:32,525 --> 01:42:34,295
So that all worked out fine.

1710
01:42:34,445 --> 01:42:38,675
He signed Warren G and Warren G went
triple platinum in the summer of 94.

1711
01:42:38,675 --> 01:42:44,665
So, Russell got the, he satisfied hit the
motivation that he wanted for Def Jam.

1712
01:42:45,055 --> 01:42:49,295
But like we talked about with
Bjork, staying true to yourself and

1713
01:42:49,295 --> 01:42:52,355
following your own artistic intent
pays off better in the long run.

1714
01:42:52,903 --> 01:42:56,143
with no disrespect to Warren
g Illmatic is Illmatic.

1715
01:42:56,556 --> 01:42:57,216
two other things.

1716
01:42:58,206 --> 01:43:03,726
One nineties production, nineties
hip hop production at its finest.

1717
01:43:04,200 --> 01:43:08,100
There's a lot of compare and contrast
with Public Enemy and the bomb squad

1718
01:43:09,090 --> 01:43:13,410
I saw this interesting spectrum
that Nas got compared on where you

1719
01:43:13,410 --> 01:43:16,800
had Public Enemy on the one end.

1720
01:43:17,130 --> 01:43:20,700
You know, forcing people to take
a political stance, an action of a

1721
01:43:20,700 --> 01:43:26,370
certain kind, an NWA on the other end,
glorifying violence and Nas in the

1722
01:43:26,370 --> 01:43:30,181
middle, being realistic about all of
it and just sort of like presenting

1723
01:43:30,181 --> 01:43:31,501
the case and leaving it to you.

1724
01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:35,630
I thought that was interesting if
a bit reductive, but Public Enemy

1725
01:43:35,630 --> 01:43:40,280
is an interesting contrast here
'cause of bomb squad production.

1726
01:43:40,663 --> 01:43:44,533
I also think because Q-Tip is a
producer on one of these songs, going

1727
01:43:44,533 --> 01:43:49,590
back and revisiting his production,
one of the all time greats alongside

1728
01:43:49,590 --> 01:43:51,831
DJ Premier, just revisiting tribe.

1729
01:43:52,161 --> 01:43:55,611
Never bad to do that, just strictly from
a production and sampling standpoint.

1730
01:43:56,085 --> 01:43:59,235
I think we've said plenty about
the sampling bit at this point.

1731
01:43:59,235 --> 01:44:05,815
The last thing I would say is one of the
articles maybe in the Pitchfork article

1732
01:44:05,815 --> 01:44:10,345
written by Jeff Weiss, as in passion
of the Weiss, gave it a perfect 10.

1733
01:44:10,645 --> 01:44:14,515
It's one of the best write-ups
like I've ever, ever seen.

1734
01:44:15,145 --> 01:44:17,575
So I want to give that flowers.

1735
01:44:17,635 --> 01:44:21,708
It's so sensational, the quality
and the density of that writing.

1736
01:44:22,091 --> 01:44:26,748
But there's comparisons to Marvin Gaye's,
what's going on, which, I could take

1737
01:44:26,748 --> 01:44:30,778
or leave that comparison, but there's
comparisons to living in the city and

1738
01:44:30,778 --> 01:44:36,868
how a lot of the spirit of matic is a
spiritual succession to the way Stevie

1739
01:44:36,868 --> 01:44:41,068
Wonder presents and lays out musically
and lyrically living in the city.

1740
01:44:41,468 --> 01:44:46,028
So comparing Illmatic to another American
classic, distinctly American classic

1741
01:44:46,028 --> 01:44:51,100
being Innervisions songs in the Key of
Life, being the like main record that

1742
01:44:51,100 --> 01:44:55,940
people point to with Stevie Innervisions
is definitely my favorite Stevie record.

1743
01:44:56,340 --> 01:45:01,890
And I think more in line with the spirit
of this one, when you have songs like

1744
01:45:02,038 --> 01:45:07,219
Living for the City and certainly Higher
Ground, they pair really well together.

1745
01:45:07,309 --> 01:45:12,093
Something about the texture of them feels
like they belong sort of in the same camp.

1746
01:45:12,148 --> 01:45:17,458
The reds and oranges of the cover,
of Queensbridge Housing and the

1747
01:45:17,458 --> 01:45:21,852
yellow of the city on the cover
of Innervisions, they all feel

1748
01:45:21,852 --> 01:45:23,899
somewhat in the same palette to me.

1749
01:45:24,299 --> 01:45:29,126
So I would leave it on that note,
like maybe the point there is find.

1750
01:45:29,526 --> 01:45:33,421
How it situates in the Great
American story and the pantheon of

1751
01:45:33,421 --> 01:45:36,661
great American art that moves you.

1752
01:45:37,291 --> 01:45:43,847
And as we try to find our footing for what
the next two 50 will be, if this country

1753
01:45:43,847 --> 01:45:45,677
even lasts that much fucking longer.

1754
01:45:46,062 --> 01:45:46,822
Cliff: I certainly won't,

1755
01:45:47,448 --> 01:45:48,018
Kyle: yeah.

1756
01:45:48,898 --> 01:45:50,158
To be Bill Hicks about it though.

1757
01:45:50,158 --> 01:45:51,793
You know, like, what's the point?

1758
01:45:51,793 --> 01:45:52,663
Let's find a point.

1759
01:45:53,469 --> 01:45:55,999
We gotta have hope amongst the horrors.

1760
01:45:56,119 --> 01:46:03,381
And not to hang too much on Ill MAD's
hat rack, but like Illmatic came from

1761
01:46:03,381 --> 01:46:08,361
the worst things about America and it
is one of the best things about America.

1762
01:46:08,869 --> 01:46:13,398
maybe starting to compare it to
connect it to the web, the tapestry

1763
01:46:13,998 --> 01:46:15,948
of other greatly American things.

1764
01:46:16,508 --> 01:46:20,164
America's only gonna be great again
if we can actually make it that way.

1765
01:46:20,194 --> 01:46:26,404
If we find things to love about it and
we tell those stories, I mean, shit.

1766
01:46:26,594 --> 01:46:31,154
Think about New York right now and
what a bellwether, an energizer mom

1767
01:46:31,154 --> 01:46:35,634
Donny has been and how that's been a
lightning rod for the rest of the country.

1768
01:46:36,091 --> 01:46:38,611
Like New York maybe is the
greatest city in the world.

1769
01:46:39,121 --> 01:46:44,701
I will say it begrudgingly because as it
goes, so much of the world goes so like

1770
01:46:44,994 --> 01:46:47,274
we gotta reclaim the American story.

1771
01:46:47,424 --> 01:46:50,964
And that is not at all something
that I was thinking about, talking

1772
01:46:50,964 --> 01:46:55,919
about going into this episode, but
straight up this record is so good,

1773
01:46:55,919 --> 01:46:58,859
it makes me proud to be an American
and that is a sentence that I have not

1774
01:46:58,859 --> 01:47:01,858
said out of my mouth in a long time.

1775
01:47:02,258 --> 01:47:03,398
maybe that's the point.

1776
01:47:03,488 --> 01:47:07,628
May, you know, maybe it can do something
for you on a musical level, but maybe

1777
01:47:07,628 --> 01:47:11,168
it can do something on a much steeper
spiritual level for you as well.