1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,098
Cliff: Today we're talking
about TLC's CrazySexyCool.

2
00:00:03,228 --> 00:00:04,308
Kyle: ATL, ho!

3
00:00:05,048 --> 00:00:06,098
ATL, ho!

4
00:00:06,465 --> 00:00:09,235
Cliff: Honestly, I shouldn't be
allowed to pronounce that album

5
00:00:09,235 --> 00:00:12,175
title at all, and neither should
anyone else who looks like us.

6
00:00:12,565 --> 00:00:16,710
But I did my best, and I said it
with a serious demeanor, so hopefully

7
00:00:16,710 --> 00:00:17,990
that will communicate the idea.

8
00:00:18,170 --> 00:00:20,157
Kyle: It is a bit of
where do I put the accent?

9
00:00:20,336 --> 00:00:21,746
Which word do you italicize?

10
00:00:22,156 --> 00:00:25,956
Crazy, sexy, cool, crazy,
sexy, cool, crazy, sexy, cool.

11
00:00:25,966 --> 00:00:26,076
How

12
00:00:26,076 --> 00:00:27,476
Cliff: do I pronounce the camel cases?

13
00:00:27,686 --> 00:00:28,936
Crazy, sexy, cool.

14
00:00:29,303 --> 00:00:34,012
Oh, this is so much easier when I
can like, hide all of my insecurities

15
00:00:34,022 --> 00:00:37,482
bodily below my shoulders and you
can't see them while we're recording.

16
00:00:37,772 --> 00:00:40,792
And now we're back in the same
room and you can see all of myself.

17
00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,136
Just like the old days where we
could just look at each other and

18
00:00:44,136 --> 00:00:45,926
go, is that what you really just did?

19
00:00:46,116 --> 00:00:49,626
Kyle: It's only fitting
that for an episode about.

20
00:00:50,131 --> 00:00:54,478
And Atlanta artists, we would be back in
each other's physical presence in Atlanta.

21
00:00:54,717 --> 00:00:57,917
we were joking about the outcast
episode that started us off right

22
00:00:57,917 --> 00:00:59,027
before we started recording.

23
00:00:59,547 --> 00:01:01,117
We've come a long way since then.

24
00:01:01,798 --> 00:01:02,548
Better set up.

25
00:01:02,868 --> 00:01:05,898
I think we're marginally better at
talking about music than we were.

26
00:01:06,818 --> 00:01:08,038
Was that four years ago?

27
00:01:08,268 --> 00:01:09,858
Have we been doing this that long already?

28
00:01:10,225 --> 00:01:10,855
Cliff: More than that, bud.

29
00:01:11,005 --> 00:01:12,105
Kyle: Six years?

30
00:01:12,265 --> 00:01:12,775
Cliff: Something like that.

31
00:01:12,835 --> 00:01:13,485
Kyle: Six years.

32
00:01:13,505 --> 00:01:14,155
Cliff: Yeah, I think so.

33
00:01:14,566 --> 00:01:17,996
Slow march of time in pod cast.

34
00:01:18,681 --> 00:01:19,271
episodes.

35
00:01:19,781 --> 00:01:23,561
Yeah, I am disappointed to discover
that we are talking today about the

36
00:01:23,561 --> 00:01:28,471
artist TLC and not spending two hours
dissecting turnstile love connection

37
00:01:29,661 --> 00:01:32,288
because I didn't want to touch a
level up and I want a connection

38
00:01:32,288 --> 00:01:33,638
and I felt that that was enough.

39
00:01:34,005 --> 00:01:37,885
So we'll get a lot of TLC instead
for me and us and everyone.

40
00:01:37,985 --> 00:01:40,585
Kyle: I think everybody in
the band turnstile would love

41
00:01:40,585 --> 00:01:44,355
to be in the with the group.

42
00:01:44,790 --> 00:01:45,410
TLC.

43
00:01:45,530 --> 00:01:45,740
Cliff: Yep.

44
00:01:47,740 --> 00:01:49,190
Brand new sentences, Reddit.

45
00:01:49,230 --> 00:01:49,820
What's up?

46
00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:58,047
Kyle: I think, I think a TLC TLC tour
would be the sickest shit imaginable,

47
00:01:58,414 --> 00:02:04,710
especially considering the way Turnstile
plays Whitney Houston before they go on.

48
00:02:05,077 --> 00:02:07,827
Anyway, we're not, we're not
here to talk about the punks.

49
00:02:08,194 --> 00:02:08,974
Cliff: If you say so.

50
00:02:08,974 --> 00:02:11,456
Kyle: I'm to talk about two things today.

51
00:02:11,536 --> 00:02:13,623
I think I'm here to celebrate.

52
00:02:14,278 --> 00:02:19,795
A moment of immense cultural influence
by a singular group of artists

53
00:02:19,795 --> 00:02:21,305
that is from where we are from.

54
00:02:21,473 --> 00:02:25,675
and the degree of the influence, I
don't even really think I comprehended

55
00:02:25,895 --> 00:02:29,432
until we started sitting down to
revisit this and, you know, we had

56
00:02:29,512 --> 00:02:34,739
30 choices for albums to talk about
from this month on the calendar.

57
00:02:35,304 --> 00:02:39,871
And for some reason, cosmically,
this sort of became the one.

58
00:02:40,451 --> 00:02:42,891
Um, and I think we'll get
into some of those patterns.

59
00:02:43,258 --> 00:02:47,855
But anyway, there's a whole Atlanta
connection and stuff to unpack

60
00:02:47,855 --> 00:02:49,285
that I think is really interesting.

61
00:02:49,805 --> 00:02:55,818
And  then there's just this good, plain
old, like, well, duh, that actually

62
00:02:55,818 --> 00:02:57,838
does bear pressing it on a little bit.

63
00:02:58,258 --> 00:03:00,908
The idea that, Cliff, I don't know if
you, I don't know if you know this, and

64
00:03:00,908 --> 00:03:03,568
listener, I don't know if you know this
either, but women contain multitudes.

65
00:03:04,178 --> 00:03:06,538
People contain multitudes,
but women especially.

66
00:03:06,648 --> 00:03:08,768
Cliff: They kept trying to tell
me that, but I didn't listen.

67
00:03:08,798 --> 00:03:08,858
Um,

68
00:03:09,843 --> 00:03:12,413
This will definitely
be a very classic case.

69
00:03:12,433 --> 00:03:17,530
Very, as we say now, very tuned
day coded in the sense of there's a

70
00:03:17,530 --> 00:03:21,860
million new specific unique things
to talk about with the record.

71
00:03:22,130 --> 00:03:24,440
And yet there is an unavoidable.

72
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:29,735
Oh, There are dumb shit men involved
in this, like there is on almost

73
00:03:29,735 --> 00:03:34,075
every record, and then you could
just draw a graph, just like, are

74
00:03:34,075 --> 00:03:36,105
there women involved in the artistry?

75
00:03:36,255 --> 00:03:40,135
Therefore, the stupidity of the men
who get to associate themselves with

76
00:03:40,135 --> 00:03:44,935
them rises accordingly, and they
find new heights of stupidity which

77
00:03:44,955 --> 00:03:50,995
really come really come out here on
this record and to, to both of your

78
00:03:50,995 --> 00:03:55,930
points, um, One of the fantastic things
I did in preparation for this was

79
00:03:56,170 --> 00:04:01,900
watch original TLC interviews from the
90s, not the VH1 reenactment of them.

80
00:04:02,350 --> 00:04:05,310
Where they can all talk together
seamlessly, but the ones where

81
00:04:05,310 --> 00:04:08,350
they're like actually fidgeting and
making things up as they go along.

82
00:04:08,717 --> 00:04:13,057
And one of the things left I said was,
I think Jermaine Dupri is responsible

83
00:04:13,067 --> 00:04:16,417
for a lot more than people think,
and that is a very good sentence.

84
00:04:19,867 --> 00:04:25,107
Like, uh huh, I think we'll find,
um, some surprises buried in here.

85
00:04:25,437 --> 00:04:30,764
But overall, it's a great
exercise once again in like,

86
00:04:31,129 --> 00:04:32,629
What's unique about a record.

87
00:04:32,809 --> 00:04:35,699
What does the uniqueness of a
record teach you about other things?

88
00:04:36,019 --> 00:04:39,779
And then whatever about a record or
a moment in time, or a story kind of

89
00:04:39,779 --> 00:04:43,029
bothers you or doesn't hit you the
right way, fine, there's a million

90
00:04:43,029 --> 00:04:44,529
other sides that you can look at.

91
00:04:45,429 --> 00:04:49,219
Kyle: And specifically on that, like,
I don't want to center the men in this

92
00:04:49,219 --> 00:04:51,929
episode in any way, that is not the story.

93
00:04:52,339 --> 00:04:54,979
It is about the cosmic
brilliance of these women.

94
00:04:55,309 --> 00:04:55,859
And.

95
00:04:56,509 --> 00:05:00,719
The thing that astounded me that I wasn't
really aware of, especially because

96
00:05:00,719 --> 00:05:04,159
of how young they were and certainly
how young we were when this record

97
00:05:04,169 --> 00:05:09,079
came out, it's like they had a vision
that they were enacting and they were

98
00:05:09,079 --> 00:05:14,493
really vocal about it and they had great
clarity around it and they went after it.

99
00:05:14,734 --> 00:05:19,484
And they chose collaborators who they
thought could help them get there.

100
00:05:19,484 --> 00:05:23,747
And those collaborators were
faulted in, in a multitude of ways.

101
00:05:24,438 --> 00:05:26,208
like I really want to celebrate.

102
00:05:26,575 --> 00:05:30,415
These are songs that if you are
over a certain age, you have heard.

103
00:05:30,782 --> 00:05:34,859
There's no way that you haven't,
if you are below a certain age, you

104
00:05:34,869 --> 00:05:39,729
have been touched in your life as
a music fan by something that like,

105
00:05:40,149 --> 00:05:41,649
not just was influenced by this, but.

106
00:05:42,629 --> 00:05:45,369
I can say with a high degree
of confidence would not exist

107
00:05:45,709 --> 00:05:47,749
without this group or this record.

108
00:05:48,209 --> 00:05:49,399
And we'll talk about that later.

109
00:05:49,799 --> 00:05:53,961
But this is a like a pause and
meditate moment on like, even if you're

110
00:05:53,961 --> 00:05:57,701
aware of TLC generally in the ether.

111
00:05:58,010 --> 00:05:59,769
This is cause for celebration.

112
00:06:00,082 --> 00:06:05,742
it's recent enough in the cultural
memory that if it was like a, a record

113
00:06:05,862 --> 00:06:09,282
or a group on the periphery for you, you
might not have stopped down to be like,

114
00:06:09,732 --> 00:06:15,212
wow, this is a really important link
in the chain of American music history.

115
00:06:15,579 --> 00:06:17,769
Cliff: And I think it's easy to win.

116
00:06:18,224 --> 00:06:22,824
You're not existing as at least
a teenager or adult at the

117
00:06:22,824 --> 00:06:24,014
time where music comes out.

118
00:06:24,054 --> 00:06:28,571
I mean, we talk about this a lot, but
it's sort of easy to group breakout

119
00:06:28,591 --> 00:06:33,081
acts like this in with everything
else that was interesting at the time.

120
00:06:33,081 --> 00:06:36,521
Like, In Vogue was a group
at the time who was huge.

121
00:06:36,771 --> 00:06:42,251
It would be cool to talk about them in
relationship to TLC and a whole scene

122
00:06:42,251 --> 00:06:46,308
of, you know, moving R& B forward,
moving pop forward, all kinds of things.

123
00:06:46,678 --> 00:06:50,348
And there are interesting conversations
to be had there, but like, specifically

124
00:06:50,348 --> 00:06:57,248
though, TLC doesn't just belong in the
generic category of R& B got better

125
00:06:57,598 --> 00:07:00,018
and also women led R& B got better.

126
00:07:00,688 --> 00:07:05,448
They, like, blew the doors off
of women's R& B and all possible

127
00:07:05,448 --> 00:07:06,698
categories of everything.

128
00:07:07,188 --> 00:07:11,468
Made more money on a tour than anyone
had at that point in that collection.

129
00:07:11,678 --> 00:07:14,598
Have sold more records as
that type of a collection.

130
00:07:14,978 --> 00:07:21,238
Just unimaginably huge footprint
culturally, like you're saying but

131
00:07:21,238 --> 00:07:23,675
that's, I think it's real easy.

132
00:07:23,675 --> 00:07:25,175
We've talked a lot about the 90s.

133
00:07:25,175 --> 00:07:25,685
It's this.

134
00:07:25,685 --> 00:07:25,825
It's this.

135
00:07:26,185 --> 00:07:31,065
Year in toondig, but especially
for us because that was a time

136
00:07:31,065 --> 00:07:34,895
where we were transitioning from
being children into being adults.

137
00:07:35,325 --> 00:07:38,825
Like it's, it's so easy to sort of
gloss over that and tell stories about.

138
00:07:39,435 --> 00:07:42,045
Bill Clinton playing saxophone
and things being normal.

139
00:07:42,045 --> 00:07:44,945
And Oh, remember when
the economy was cool.

140
00:07:47,105 --> 00:07:50,415
Whereas what we'll get to do
here and what's always the joy

141
00:07:50,435 --> 00:07:54,025
of these episodes is like, nah,
there's so much more to appreciate.

142
00:07:54,055 --> 00:07:55,645
That's so much more specific.

143
00:07:56,085 --> 00:07:59,035
And then especially with this one,
and maybe it's just the way that

144
00:07:59,035 --> 00:08:02,902
it hit me, but especially with
this record in a similar vein to.

145
00:08:03,269 --> 00:08:05,819
Who's the artist that we
covered a few episodes ago?

146
00:08:05,819 --> 00:08:06,539
The solo.

147
00:08:06,569 --> 00:08:07,689
male artist.

148
00:08:07,976 --> 00:08:08,646
Jeff Buckley.

149
00:08:08,656 --> 00:08:09,226
Thank you.

150
00:08:09,558 --> 00:08:12,224
similarly, I mean, I like
a lot of these songs.

151
00:08:12,554 --> 00:08:14,144
Some of them I don't care about.

152
00:08:14,511 --> 00:08:20,481
But using this record as a
kaleidoscope to look at music Flawless

153
00:08:20,731 --> 00:08:21,301
Kyle: totally agree.

154
00:08:21,531 --> 00:08:24,831
Cliff: I can't remember the last time
and we'll talk about this some for sure I

155
00:08:24,831 --> 00:08:32,168
cannot remember the last time I had such
a fun active Researching session like i'm

156
00:08:32,168 --> 00:08:37,708
listening to the music and i'm googling
everything that I can possibly think of

157
00:08:37,738 --> 00:08:42,018
that this makes me think of and we'll talk
about some specifics later, but I mean,

158
00:08:42,018 --> 00:08:46,128
I just wanted to come right out with,
like, we can talk about how great this is,

159
00:08:46,158 --> 00:08:52,178
disambiguate it from cultural stories we
might tell, but also, once again, if this

160
00:08:52,188 --> 00:08:56,999
particular genre, artist, album, whatever,
doesn't connect with you, we're going to

161
00:08:56,999 --> 00:09:01,423
talk about countless ways that you can use
art and appreciate it to go find something

162
00:09:01,423 --> 00:09:02,823
that connects with you a little bit more.

163
00:09:03,433 --> 00:09:06,253
Kyle: Before we, like, really get
into the record itself, I do want to

164
00:09:06,253 --> 00:09:09,413
double down on a couple of points that
you just made that were excellent.

165
00:09:09,604 --> 00:09:13,714
You and I have talked about the ripple
effect with like, there's a one to one

166
00:09:13,714 --> 00:09:19,331
correlation between, the number of other
bands that a band shows you and like how,

167
00:09:19,501 --> 00:09:21,461
how much your favorite they wind up being.

168
00:09:21,461 --> 00:09:24,760
I've always used Queens of the
Stone Age as an example there.

169
00:09:24,848 --> 00:09:31,078
But to your point with TLC, the same
correlation is true of what a window

170
00:09:31,118 --> 00:09:36,158
into a cultural moment or like a
bit of pop culture anthropology,

171
00:09:36,608 --> 00:09:38,998
a group or an album moment can be.

172
00:09:39,278 --> 00:09:41,268
And you're absolutely
right that this is that.

173
00:09:41,419 --> 00:09:46,204
the other thing you made a point
about is, I wouldn't gloss over

174
00:09:46,204 --> 00:09:52,224
necessarily what a moment in R&
B and women led R& B this was.

175
00:09:52,714 --> 00:09:58,123
Because in 94, 95, it was actually
a much stronger time than I

176
00:09:58,123 --> 00:09:59,473
remember it being for all that.

177
00:09:59,533 --> 00:10:05,463
So if you look at Billboard's year end top
100 from 95, two of the top three songs

178
00:10:05,463 --> 00:10:10,405
are Waterfalls and Creep and, Gangsta's
Paradise by Coolio from the Dangerous

179
00:10:10,405 --> 00:10:12,015
Minds soundtrack was number one there.

180
00:10:12,718 --> 00:10:18,158
Digging in on a little bit of the rest
of the top 25 or so kiss from a rose by

181
00:10:18,158 --> 00:10:22,868
seal from batman forever On bended knee
by boys to men and there's a couple of

182
00:10:22,868 --> 00:10:29,048
other songs from two on this list fantasy
by mariah carey take a bow by madonna

183
00:10:29,378 --> 00:10:33,922
This is how we do it by montel jordan
all the way down at number 10 I can love

184
00:10:33,922 --> 00:10:39,109
you like that by all for one Boombastic
by shaggy you gotta be by desiree

185
00:10:40,039 --> 00:10:42,089
You are not alone by Michael Jackson.

186
00:10:42,389 --> 00:10:43,799
Here comes the hot stepper.

187
00:10:43,917 --> 00:10:45,667
candy rain by soul for real.

188
00:10:45,891 --> 00:10:49,721
red light special all the way down at
number 28 runaway by Janet Jackson,

189
00:10:49,981 --> 00:10:52,191
someone to love by John B and baby face,

190
00:10:52,811 --> 00:10:53,161
Cliff: a bunch

191
00:10:53,161 --> 00:10:54,471
Kyle: of Hootie and the Blowfish songs.

192
00:10:55,001 --> 00:10:56,681
Fucking, I got five on it.

193
00:10:56,981 --> 00:10:58,281
Baby by Brandy.

194
00:10:58,501 --> 00:11:01,801
As I lay me down by Sophie B
Hawkins, I'll be there for you.

195
00:11:01,801 --> 00:11:04,211
And you're all I need to get
by, by method and Mary J.

196
00:11:04,211 --> 00:11:06,911
Blige a couple of black street songs.

197
00:11:06,911 --> 00:11:09,811
Like it goes on and on rhythm
of the night by Corona.

198
00:11:09,891 --> 00:11:11,361
Cliff: Jesus take me back, man.

199
00:11:11,761 --> 00:11:15,636
Kyle: I wish my ski low,
like, dude, that's nuts.

200
00:11:15,666 --> 00:11:18,996
Tootsie roll by 69 boys,
uh, way down at number 63.

201
00:11:19,036 --> 00:11:19,656
Amazing.

202
00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:20,570
so.

203
00:11:20,937 --> 00:11:26,414
Yes, don't lump it in with the pop R&
B of the moment, but also take a moment

204
00:11:26,414 --> 00:11:31,364
to appreciate what a massive thing this
had to be to stand out in that crowd

205
00:11:31,934 --> 00:11:36,234
of songs that were immediately popular,
but many of which have stood the test

206
00:11:36,234 --> 00:11:40,524
of time and some of which have like
really gained an appreciation thanks

207
00:11:40,524 --> 00:11:42,674
to the internet years and years later.

208
00:11:43,013 --> 00:11:47,780
But thinking about the nineties and you
bringing up Jeff Buckley, that contrast

209
00:11:47,890 --> 00:11:49,350
hits me in a really interesting way.

210
00:11:50,020 --> 00:11:53,970
You shouldn't, you're right, situate
it against this is how we do it.

211
00:11:54,260 --> 00:11:59,520
You should situate it against nevermind
because it's like on that level and

212
00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,980
it's been that culturally pervasive
and influential and spun off that

213
00:12:02,980 --> 00:12:05,790
many other larger and larger acts.

214
00:12:07,082 --> 00:12:11,252
it's a great artifact of the world
that it was trying to play in.

215
00:12:11,852 --> 00:12:16,762
And it was a hugely important
one of one decade defining.

216
00:12:18,002 --> 00:12:22,632
So you'd like, you kind of got to look
at it on multiple levels immediately.

217
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,980
and like we said with grace for
Jeff Buckley, anything that kind

218
00:12:26,980 --> 00:12:31,846
of hits on those levels, it's an
artist, artist record, and it has

219
00:12:31,846 --> 00:12:33,726
some culturally pervasive shit in it.

220
00:12:34,116 --> 00:12:37,246
Even if you're going to hate it, even
if you don't like a single song on it,

221
00:12:37,266 --> 00:12:41,431
which I I would defy a single person
to ever come up to me on the street.

222
00:12:41,431 --> 00:12:42,571
I'll have one complaint

223
00:12:42,571 --> 00:12:43,191
Cliff: later in the episode.

224
00:12:44,081 --> 00:12:45,321
It will be only one.

225
00:12:45,351 --> 00:12:45,471
I

226
00:12:45,471 --> 00:12:48,601
Kyle: bet, I bet I know exactly
what it is without even looking.

227
00:12:48,621 --> 00:12:49,231
It's not a

228
00:12:49,231 --> 00:12:49,721
Cliff: song.

229
00:12:50,136 --> 00:12:50,406
Yeah.

230
00:12:50,976 --> 00:12:51,226
Kyle: Yeah.

231
00:12:52,086 --> 00:12:52,496
I knew.

232
00:12:52,506 --> 00:12:53,006
Know me well.

233
00:12:53,016 --> 00:12:53,516
I knew.

234
00:12:53,566 --> 00:12:54,596
Cliff: You know which one it is.

235
00:12:56,276 --> 00:12:57,336
Kyle: Well, I don't know.

236
00:12:57,396 --> 00:12:58,226
I know it's a skit.

237
00:12:58,306 --> 00:12:59,626
I don't know which one it is.

238
00:12:59,796 --> 00:13:02,796
It could be any number of them,
but I know I was like, Oh, Cliff's

239
00:13:02,806 --> 00:13:03,956
gonna, Cliff's gonna hate these.

240
00:13:04,323 --> 00:13:06,383
anyway it's a transcendent thing.

241
00:13:06,383 --> 00:13:10,110
And if you're listening to a music
podcast, Pursuing the discipline

242
00:13:10,110 --> 00:13:13,900
like us of learning to love music in
newer and deeper ways all the time.

243
00:13:14,247 --> 00:13:18,987
Even if you don't ever listen to this
record again, I like, I'm not a believer

244
00:13:18,987 --> 00:13:22,077
in the thousand and one records that
every human being alive should listen

245
00:13:22,077 --> 00:13:23,557
to everybody's journey is their journey.

246
00:13:23,557 --> 00:13:27,547
But like, I would put this in the
category with grace that like, if you

247
00:13:27,547 --> 00:13:31,179
want to have a conversation about music
at all, this is like required reading.

248
00:13:31,262 --> 00:13:35,332
Cliff: I second that, and I certainly
had no complaints having to listen

249
00:13:35,332 --> 00:13:37,182
to this one million times over.

250
00:13:37,532 --> 00:13:42,182
Which is always a fun test of a
record, specifically for this podcast.

251
00:13:42,549 --> 00:13:47,159
Alright, I'm going to have to listen
to this 20 times a day for a few

252
00:13:47,159 --> 00:13:51,359
weeks leading up, so that my brain can
sort out a few interesting things to

253
00:13:51,359 --> 00:13:52,779
make other people interested in it.

254
00:13:53,146 --> 00:13:55,883
And the fact that, uh, So
many great records don't feel

255
00:13:55,883 --> 00:13:57,213
like work when you do that.

256
00:13:57,223 --> 00:13:57,553
Kyle: Yeah.

257
00:13:58,233 --> 00:14:01,113
I'm already thinking of a couple for
2025 that it's going to be fun to

258
00:14:01,113 --> 00:14:07,029
picture you snowboarding, getting
in the zone with some of them.

259
00:14:07,251 --> 00:14:08,711
Cliff: This is one of
the ones that's easy.

260
00:14:08,851 --> 00:14:09,761
It's so easy.

261
00:14:10,076 --> 00:14:15,316
Vibe wise, flexible, that it can just
kind of like bend and form around

262
00:14:15,326 --> 00:14:16,676
wherever it is you want to put it.

263
00:14:16,676 --> 00:14:17,436
You want to be active?

264
00:14:17,466 --> 00:14:17,736
Cool.

265
00:14:17,966 --> 00:14:18,806
You want to be sexy?

266
00:14:18,856 --> 00:14:19,166
Cool.

267
00:14:19,466 --> 00:14:20,506
You want to do active listening?

268
00:14:20,506 --> 00:14:20,906
Fine.

269
00:14:21,026 --> 00:14:21,816
Passive listening?

270
00:14:21,896 --> 00:14:22,516
All good.

271
00:14:22,786 --> 00:14:26,516
Other than the weird flush inside
of the skit, uh, everything

272
00:14:26,516 --> 00:14:28,796
else is pretty, like, alright.

273
00:14:29,276 --> 00:14:29,876
We're down.

274
00:14:29,876 --> 00:14:31,126
We can put it on this whole record.

275
00:14:31,126 --> 00:14:31,966
Everybody loves it.

276
00:14:32,616 --> 00:14:35,226
Uh, and, uh, if they don't know
what it is by the time Waterfalls

277
00:14:35,226 --> 00:14:38,076
comes on, they feel embarrassed to
remember it and get excited about it.

278
00:14:38,086 --> 00:14:38,386
So,

279
00:14:38,753 --> 00:14:41,273
Kyle: Well, that's because
it's multifaceted by design.

280
00:14:41,473 --> 00:14:45,653
They had the name before they had
a single sound for the record.

281
00:14:46,023 --> 00:14:50,503
You know, there's that great quote you
put in They, meaning the producers,

282
00:14:50,503 --> 00:14:55,233
writers, whatever, would do a crazy
song for me, a sexy song for Chili and a

283
00:14:55,233 --> 00:14:57,643
cool song for T Boz, Left Eye Told Vibe.

284
00:14:57,893 --> 00:15:00,733
We had to explain that the title doesn't
just describe us individually, it

285
00:15:00,743 --> 00:15:02,643
describes all the parts of every woman.

286
00:15:03,103 --> 00:15:06,443
They were truly using I'm
Every Woman as an inspiration.

287
00:15:06,523 --> 00:15:11,220
So the multifacetedness is built
right into the chassis of the thing.

288
00:15:12,330 --> 00:15:17,007
Cliff: And as a bit of a Almost like
a mental foil as you hear some of

289
00:15:17,017 --> 00:15:20,887
the stories and background today
like I also think it's helpful to

290
00:15:20,887 --> 00:15:26,327
take that quote and just remind
ourselves of What was happening?

291
00:15:26,467 --> 00:15:34,468
culturally in music on a larger scale
in the 90s where groups of individuals,

292
00:15:34,698 --> 00:15:40,295
were for the most part, money, capital,
was trying to turn those collections of

293
00:15:40,295 --> 00:15:46,305
people into like, no, no, I need you to
be very specific versions of things, so

294
00:15:46,305 --> 00:15:50,325
that we can talk about you in specific
ways, wrap that up in cellophane, and

295
00:15:50,325 --> 00:15:52,055
then sell that back out to the public.

296
00:15:52,625 --> 00:15:55,685
A la Spice Girls or something like that.

297
00:15:55,725 --> 00:16:00,305
It's a terrible example here, but the most
kind of stark example of like, no, no, no.

298
00:16:00,305 --> 00:16:03,285
We need each person to be
one and only one thing.

299
00:16:03,865 --> 00:16:04,755
Kyle: New kids on the block.

300
00:16:05,245 --> 00:16:05,825
Cliff: Even better.

301
00:16:05,825 --> 00:16:06,055
Yeah.

302
00:16:06,175 --> 00:16:10,075
Singular dimensions that we're gonna
add together and go, look at all

303
00:16:10,075 --> 00:16:12,505
these dimensions of individual people.

304
00:16:12,815 --> 00:16:15,005
But they can only respond
in very specific ways.

305
00:16:15,281 --> 00:16:19,391
this is the sexy NSYNC member,
not the funny one, okay?

306
00:16:19,931 --> 00:16:25,762
And to see them not only on this record
have to live out that quote that you

307
00:16:25,762 --> 00:16:30,792
just gave in terms of not just, we didn't
just have to Tell our producers that

308
00:16:30,802 --> 00:16:35,602
that is what the title is, but they made
it pretty clear that was, Oh, we had to

309
00:16:35,602 --> 00:16:38,372
remind them on a pretty regular basis.

310
00:16:38,372 --> 00:16:38,982
They did not say the

311
00:16:39,912 --> 00:16:41,352
Kyle: kids say, understand the assignment.

312
00:16:41,482 --> 00:16:41,712
No,

313
00:16:42,572 --> 00:16:42,852
Cliff: no.

314
00:16:42,902 --> 00:16:44,642
They kept wanting to
do something different.

315
00:16:44,892 --> 00:16:49,523
And the reason that's worth
bringing up is not just to shit on.

316
00:16:49,664 --> 00:16:54,504
90s artist rep men who exploited
people for money, although we can,

317
00:16:54,744 --> 00:16:57,174
that's just not an interesting
thing to talk about in general.

318
00:16:57,184 --> 00:16:58,144
Hi Atlanta friends,

319
00:16:58,154 --> 00:16:59,914
Kyle: please send this
episode directly to L.

320
00:16:59,914 --> 00:16:59,994
A.

321
00:17:00,254 --> 00:17:01,474
Reid for me if you don't mind.

322
00:17:02,634 --> 00:17:06,774
Cliff: But once again, speaks
to the strength of everything

323
00:17:06,774 --> 00:17:07,774
we're about to talk about.

324
00:17:07,934 --> 00:17:12,424
Every accolade that puts
them above anyone else.

325
00:17:12,791 --> 00:17:14,391
Took 10 times as much effort.

326
00:17:14,521 --> 00:17:18,648
Yeah, because of the forces that
were against them in that way And so

327
00:17:18,678 --> 00:17:20,408
I think that was a really helpful.

328
00:17:20,408 --> 00:17:20,988
Stop me if you've

329
00:17:20,988 --> 00:17:23,128
Kyle: heard this refrain
about black women before

330
00:17:26,258 --> 00:17:33,864
Cliff: Oh so contextually And kind of
literally in the moment, a few things

331
00:17:33,924 --> 00:17:40,524
that I think will set the stage and
fill in details and interesting color

332
00:17:40,524 --> 00:17:45,034
as we talk about other stories and
details about the music is just the

333
00:17:45,034 --> 00:17:46,534
kind of literal facts of the record.

334
00:17:46,704 --> 00:17:51,974
Sometimes these are irrelevant in episodes
that we do because the actual album timing

335
00:17:51,974 --> 00:17:54,034
or recording might not matter like that.

336
00:17:54,579 --> 00:17:56,329
I don't know, Ravi Shankar
or something like that.

337
00:17:56,969 --> 00:18:00,389
A lot less important how exactly
all this came to be from a recording

338
00:18:00,389 --> 00:18:05,862
perspective, but here Crazy Sexy Cool
was released November 15th, 1994.

339
00:18:05,862 --> 00:18:09,177
Kyle: If you're listening on release
day, it is the 30th anniversary

340
00:18:09,177 --> 00:18:10,597
of the drop of this record.

341
00:18:10,747 --> 00:18:11,287
Cliff: Yes.

342
00:18:11,567 --> 00:18:14,857
Oh, it's almost like Kyle has thought
about many of these things before.

343
00:18:15,407 --> 00:18:17,027
My own little personal Easter eggs.

344
00:18:17,394 --> 00:18:22,304
put out by LaFace and Arista
Records, which, okay, so

345
00:18:22,304 --> 00:18:23,454
let's talk about a few things.

346
00:18:23,454 --> 00:18:27,204
If I leave out anything you think that
I shouldn't, you let me know, but I

347
00:18:27,324 --> 00:18:28,984
think a few things really fill it in.

348
00:18:29,664 --> 00:18:33,014
And I'm going to try to avoid
immediately snapping to the outcast

349
00:18:33,034 --> 00:18:36,384
trivia because that is important,
but not what this episode is about.

350
00:18:38,264 --> 00:18:43,114
So, this is the second studio album,
the first one, which I've looked forward

351
00:18:43,114 --> 00:18:50,254
to for weeks now, saying out loud, was
1992's, ooooh, On the TLC Tip, which was

352
00:18:50,254 --> 00:18:54,114
a really fun and stupid thing to name an
album, uh, and the more that I learned

353
00:18:54,114 --> 00:18:58,634
about how that album was named, the more
I laughed about it, because they basically

354
00:18:58,634 --> 00:19:02,404
just slammed two impossible, uh, To
understand things together and then called

355
00:19:02,404 --> 00:19:07,504
it the album title, which was really fun
but uh as an aside, I may not come back to

356
00:19:07,504 --> 00:19:13,064
you too much Unfortunately or fortunately
listening to crazy sexy cool Um, actually

357
00:19:13,064 --> 00:19:19,055
made me like the debut record a whole lot
more all over again, an immaculate vibe to

358
00:19:19,055 --> 00:19:19,525
Kyle: this day.

359
00:19:19,575 --> 00:19:24,045
And then when you go back to the debut
record, it makes you like crazy, sexy,

360
00:19:24,045 --> 00:19:29,905
cool, even more because you appreciate
the leap and some of the choices that

361
00:19:29,905 --> 00:19:32,185
they made to hone in a sound and a vibe.

362
00:19:32,485 --> 00:19:36,695
Cliff: It is it is one of our favorite
things, me and you Kyle together, when

363
00:19:36,695 --> 00:19:41,015
you can like See the intentionality from
record to record, and you can see it here.

364
00:19:41,367 --> 00:19:44,757
Kyle: You could never go backward
or forward with TLC and just have

365
00:19:44,757 --> 00:19:46,477
this document and that's plenty.

366
00:19:46,807 --> 00:19:50,747
But if you start in on Crazy Sexy
Cool and you like it, I think you

367
00:19:50,747 --> 00:19:54,497
owe it to yourself to go backward
and then to go forward to fan mail.

368
00:19:54,707 --> 00:19:55,047
Yeah.

369
00:19:55,272 --> 00:20:00,122
And see where this situates in their art,
but especially going backward, like it,

370
00:20:00,492 --> 00:20:03,982
it's like going and you know, there's
a tribe connection we'll get to, but

371
00:20:04,022 --> 00:20:08,808
yeah, it's very much like going from,
people's instinct to travels to low

372
00:20:08,808 --> 00:20:10,968
end and then being like, Oh, holy shit,

373
00:20:11,196 --> 00:20:13,376
Cliff: and even just tracing culturally.

374
00:20:14,821 --> 00:20:21,091
1992, you look at TLC and you've, I
mean, you got parachute pants, you got

375
00:20:21,091 --> 00:20:25,552
boomba, And then by the time you get
to fan mail, it's about a OL email.

376
00:20:25,552 --> 00:20:25,702
It's

377
00:20:25,702 --> 00:20:26,302
Kyle: a different word.

378
00:20:26,302 --> 00:20:26,482
Yeah.

379
00:20:26,482 --> 00:20:27,802
They got a robot on this shit.

380
00:20:27,802 --> 00:20:28,042
Whoa.

381
00:20:28,102 --> 00:20:28,552
Yeah.

382
00:20:28,822 --> 00:20:29,062
Yeah.

383
00:20:29,062 --> 00:20:33,462
Um, but even 92, which is like
culturally, that record coming

384
00:20:33,462 --> 00:20:35,532
out in 92 is really like 90.

385
00:20:35,532 --> 00:20:35,592
Yeah.

386
00:20:35,832 --> 00:20:38,652
It's the transition from eighties
hip hop to nineties hip hop.

387
00:20:38,682 --> 00:20:38,862
Yep.

388
00:20:39,072 --> 00:20:40,727
And then 92 to 94.

389
00:20:41,647 --> 00:20:45,427
in the art form is like an entirely
different planet, you know, not

390
00:20:45,427 --> 00:20:53,526
93 was Midnight Marauders and 36
Chambers and then 94 was Illmatic

391
00:20:53,526 --> 00:20:54,826
and Southern Playlistic and whatever.

392
00:20:54,826 --> 00:21:01,206
So like this is part of a huge cultural
ascent moment in hip hop and R& B

393
00:21:01,357 --> 00:21:05,884
so between those two records is like
20 years worth of culture to unpack

394
00:21:06,251 --> 00:21:07,461
Cliff: so much great music.

395
00:21:07,771 --> 00:21:11,401
So the actual record though that we're
talking about, this will be a fun refrain.

396
00:21:11,841 --> 00:21:16,331
12 times platinum 15 million
copies sold worldwide

397
00:21:16,661 --> 00:21:21,711
Kyle: on the way to An eventual
23 million total unit r.

398
00:21:22,021 --> 00:21:22,171
i.

399
00:21:22,171 --> 00:21:29,561
a certified unit sold and an estimated
65 million albums sold worldwide.

400
00:21:29,741 --> 00:21:33,855
So this was huge, but it wasn't
the only big thing that they did.

401
00:21:34,051 --> 00:21:37,851
Cliff: And they became the first
female group effectively in history.

402
00:21:37,851 --> 00:21:42,078
There are a million ways to
Categorized this exact accolade,

403
00:21:42,078 --> 00:21:44,738
but effectively first female group
in history to achieve diamonds.

404
00:21:44,738 --> 00:21:45,108
It reminds

405
00:21:45,108 --> 00:21:48,068
Kyle: me of the sports stats
where it's like, First left handed

406
00:21:48,098 --> 00:21:53,028
Aries to throw a perfect game
when the temperature's below 73.

407
00:21:53,318 --> 00:21:54,078
That kind of shit.

408
00:21:54,088 --> 00:21:55,958
Cliff: He always hits a
triple when his leg itches.

409
00:21:56,928 --> 00:21:58,258
Like, uh, okay.

410
00:21:58,625 --> 00:22:01,656
Kyle: If you say the name of
his childhood dog three times,

411
00:22:01,656 --> 00:22:03,325
the homer's to left field.

412
00:22:03,475 --> 00:22:06,545
Cliff: That foul ball was caught
by a fan from Huntsville, Alabama.

413
00:22:07,279 --> 00:22:09,009
Kyle: only the third time this decade!

414
00:22:10,420 --> 00:22:16,174
Cliff: But we'll also, as best I
can, try to eliminate the term Girl

415
00:22:16,174 --> 00:22:21,617
group that love to be populated, when
trying to describe groups of women

416
00:22:21,617 --> 00:22:24,517
who are in musical groups together.

417
00:22:24,977 --> 00:22:29,167
I understand that that was a parlance
of the time and may not have necessarily

418
00:22:29,537 --> 00:22:31,917
been offensive for everyone then.

419
00:22:32,117 --> 00:22:36,047
Now it feels really stupid and we're
just gonna try to avoid it where we can.

420
00:22:36,317 --> 00:22:39,497
So if you hear me saying things like
female group or female R& B group,

421
00:22:39,687 --> 00:22:40,857
that's what I'm trying to get at.

422
00:22:41,097 --> 00:22:43,521
Is that category great?

423
00:22:43,991 --> 00:22:49,961
But even like I think one
thing that you called out and I

424
00:22:49,981 --> 00:22:52,184
think brings an extra level of

425
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:58,250
artistic curiosity to this record because
we like to, well, We like to talk shit

426
00:22:58,250 --> 00:23:03,673
about Pitchfork in general, first of all,
but, when they are also in agreement with

427
00:23:03,673 --> 00:23:08,833
like global success and you come back to
like this record and they're like, nah, 9.

428
00:23:08,873 --> 00:23:10,253
3 out of 10 for this one.

429
00:23:10,283 --> 00:23:14,543
And it's like, okay, so we
are all on the same page.

430
00:23:14,623 --> 00:23:19,239
This is very good with a capital V and a
capital G when things like that happen.

431
00:23:19,373 --> 00:23:22,173
It feels so good to just give
yourself over to the whole thing

432
00:23:22,193 --> 00:23:24,823
like, Oh, there's something in here
then I don't have to worry about it.

433
00:23:24,843 --> 00:23:25,483
I'll find it.

434
00:23:26,043 --> 00:23:29,933
Kyle: I'm a little hesitant to give
the W over to Pitchfork on that.

435
00:23:29,983 --> 00:23:31,673
Just one because it's Pitchfork.

436
00:23:32,192 --> 00:23:40,019
but two, because the review is written
by Clover Hope, who is, phenomenal.

437
00:23:40,019 --> 00:23:45,099
I'm Music writer and like, one of the
blessings of this season has been,

438
00:23:45,316 --> 00:23:51,631
finding multiple black women with these
amazing and really unique music writing

439
00:23:51,631 --> 00:23:55,511
perspectives We found daphne brooks with
grace and other jeff buckley connection.

440
00:23:55,921 --> 00:24:00,161
I have I've recommended that book
in a non musical context to multiple

441
00:24:00,161 --> 00:24:01,881
people since we covered that episode.

442
00:24:02,236 --> 00:24:06,126
Clover Hope wrote a book
called The Motherload about 100

443
00:24:06,126 --> 00:24:07,646
plus women who made hip hop.

444
00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:12,543
So it's like, maybe just a really good
authority snuck it in under the wire

445
00:24:12,543 --> 00:24:17,013
as one of her freelance assignments,
rather than this being the editorial

446
00:24:17,013 --> 00:24:18,933
board institutional call to give it a 9.

447
00:24:18,933 --> 00:24:19,653
3.

448
00:24:20,333 --> 00:24:21,273
Cliff: I will give Means

449
00:24:21,273 --> 00:24:21,833
Kyle: to an end, right?

450
00:24:21,833 --> 00:24:23,483
Broken clock's right
twice a day, whatever.

451
00:24:23,483 --> 00:24:23,543
I will give

452
00:24:24,203 --> 00:24:27,073
Cliff: All right, in this case,
we'll give a half W, so we'll give a

453
00:24:27,253 --> 00:24:30,773
capital V, because it can be a half W.

454
00:24:30,773 --> 00:24:31,193
Pitchfork for

455
00:24:31,193 --> 00:24:31,863
Kyle: the then.

456
00:24:33,943 --> 00:24:37,313
Cliff: It can be a small W if you
bring someone in who's smarter

457
00:24:37,313 --> 00:24:40,963
than you about a thing and say,
you go ahead and tell us instead.

458
00:24:41,043 --> 00:24:43,863
Okay, that's better than
doing it another way.

459
00:24:44,383 --> 00:24:44,923
Well done.

460
00:24:44,983 --> 00:24:46,613
Kyle: That's classic
institutional bullshit.

461
00:24:46,873 --> 00:24:50,573
Find somebody who's objectively
really good to make you look

462
00:24:50,583 --> 00:24:51,693
good and then take credit.

463
00:24:52,060 --> 00:24:52,680
Cliff: For sure.

464
00:24:53,047 --> 00:24:55,297
So then to this end, I
think we should start.

465
00:24:55,807 --> 00:25:02,497
At least down this, uh, treacherous
path but important one of mentioning

466
00:25:02,864 --> 00:25:04,274
producers and collaborators.

467
00:25:04,594 --> 00:25:06,304
Kyle: Let's talk about and
speed walk past the gem.

468
00:25:07,454 --> 00:25:10,274
Cliff: Well, yes because there
are important things to say

469
00:25:10,274 --> 00:25:12,834
here that aren't hyper serious.

470
00:25:13,134 --> 00:25:15,414
There are important things to say
that are serious, and then there

471
00:25:15,414 --> 00:25:16,854
are unimportant things to say.

472
00:25:17,244 --> 00:25:19,584
So, gotta walk through
all of them, I guess.

473
00:25:20,034 --> 00:25:24,251
But main thing being the
production and collaboration.

474
00:25:24,956 --> 00:25:31,466
On this record and with TLC is how do I
want to say steeped in Atlanta deeply?

475
00:25:31,536 --> 00:25:31,796
Kyle: Yeah,

476
00:25:32,316 --> 00:25:33,376
Cliff: very deeply.

477
00:25:33,746 --> 00:25:35,556
It doesn't mean everyone only

478
00:25:35,556 --> 00:25:40,566
Kyle: tip of the spear you know, pre
Olympics before Atlanta was a place

479
00:25:40,586 --> 00:25:42,276
that anybody knew or cared about.

480
00:25:42,706 --> 00:25:47,323
This was like a formative
LaFace is a formative cultural

481
00:25:47,323 --> 00:25:49,703
institution of modern Atlanta.

482
00:25:50,309 --> 00:25:53,909
None of anything that anyone knows about
Atlanta now would have been possible

483
00:25:54,289 --> 00:25:59,714
without this nascent little, ragtag bunch
of people who Wanted to make a difference.

484
00:25:59,724 --> 00:26:05,475
You had, L.A Reid and Babyface coming from
LA to make a market outside of a market.

485
00:26:05,956 --> 00:26:11,046
so, like with Adult Swim or like with so
many other things, this was a like against

486
00:26:11,046 --> 00:26:12,974
all odds, under the radar type of thing.

487
00:26:13,145 --> 00:26:16,815
not like a Nashville thing where
there was a machine brewing.

488
00:26:16,897 --> 00:26:19,437
this was the start of the machine.

489
00:26:19,497 --> 00:26:21,342
Like that, that needs to
be absolutely changed.

490
00:26:21,482 --> 00:26:22,222
Crystal clear.

491
00:26:22,572 --> 00:26:25,742
Cliff: I'm glad you just went ahead
and said it up front like that is I

492
00:26:25,752 --> 00:26:30,700
think that's a huge bit especially
with pop adjacent records Especially

493
00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:35,537
for those folks who might want to gain
more appreciation for a particular

494
00:26:35,537 --> 00:26:42,014
record like this to separate out Pop
albums that happened as a result of

495
00:26:42,174 --> 00:26:47,674
artistry and people who wanted to be
pop adjacent as opposed to The machine

496
00:26:47,674 --> 00:26:53,004
that can be built to generate pop stuff
and populate people to it and go you

497
00:26:53,004 --> 00:26:55,094
go be this thing Here's the music.

498
00:26:55,094 --> 00:26:55,764
Here's the vibe.

499
00:26:55,774 --> 00:27:00,559
Here's the aesthetic everything you can
there There is no mistake when be made

500
00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:06,269
when you listen to TLC In interviews
and talking about how they wanted to

501
00:27:06,269 --> 00:27:10,559
approach how they wrote music and how
they express themselves even visually,

502
00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:15,129
like it was very intentional, may not
agree with all of it, but it was extremely

503
00:27:15,129 --> 00:27:19,639
intentional and they spoke about the
intentionality of it really often.

504
00:27:20,059 --> 00:27:20,469
And it's.

505
00:27:20,836 --> 00:27:26,343
In the same way that I love hearing a
guitarist talk about why he chose a really

506
00:27:26,543 --> 00:27:31,773
or she chose a really particular Guitar
and amp combo to do this like one really

507
00:27:31,773 --> 00:27:35,883
particular thing on a record and it's all
Really really intentional and I needed it

508
00:27:35,883 --> 00:27:40,873
to sound this way and that's how I got it
I love to see that same thing here where

509
00:27:41,323 --> 00:27:47,728
they as we'll talk more about too, like
their presentation as individuals, as

510
00:27:47,738 --> 00:27:52,028
women, as R&B artists all meant something
to them and they took it seriously.

511
00:27:52,558 --> 00:27:56,978
Whether we in retrospect feel like they
took it the right amount of serious or

512
00:27:56,978 --> 00:27:58,968
whatever is sort of beside the point.

513
00:27:59,138 --> 00:28:04,224
Kyle: if you set aside all the ethos bit
of it, and you are just blind listening

514
00:28:04,224 --> 00:28:07,314
to the music, there's a lot of sonic.

515
00:28:07,624 --> 00:28:13,634
Qualities to it could not have existed
would have been polished over or erased

516
00:28:13,914 --> 00:28:18,254
or turned into something else if you'd
handed Some of these ideas over like

517
00:28:18,254 --> 00:28:23,374
demos for these songs over to somebody
in new york or la or london and it's

518
00:28:23,374 --> 00:28:29,861
really important to note that for anyone
who might want to aspire to make the

519
00:28:29,861 --> 00:28:35,023
next crazy sexy cool In 2034 Maybe
it goes without saying now because

520
00:28:35,033 --> 00:28:40,283
authenticity and originality is like such
an essential currency in so many ways.

521
00:28:40,364 --> 00:28:44,064
but it was hard one here and
it was a deliberate choice

522
00:28:44,084 --> 00:28:45,834
and they didn't sacrifice.

523
00:28:45,834 --> 00:28:50,155
It was like, uh, there was actually
kind of a punk ethos underneath it all.

524
00:28:50,275 --> 00:28:51,265
The more that I think about it.

525
00:28:51,667 --> 00:28:53,127
You were saying about the dudes.

526
00:28:53,457 --> 00:28:53,707
Cliff: Yeah.

527
00:28:53,707 --> 00:28:54,067
Yeah.

528
00:28:54,117 --> 00:28:58,887
Nah, this, all of our conversations want
to create a million little digressions.

529
00:28:58,907 --> 00:29:02,087
Like I said this just made me,
this album made me interested

530
00:29:02,087 --> 00:29:03,407
in everything it felt like.

531
00:29:03,897 --> 00:29:07,097
Um, so everything you're bringing up
makes me want to chase that rabbit.

532
00:29:07,497 --> 00:29:11,744
But yeah, so you mentioned Babyface,
Jermaine Dupri, Dallas Austin,

533
00:29:12,224 --> 00:29:15,734
all producers on this record,
collaborators, now included Chucky

534
00:29:15,734 --> 00:29:18,829
Thompson and then a couple of let's see.

535
00:29:18,869 --> 00:29:22,939
We'll hit one important point that
will keep coming up as as we go along,

536
00:29:23,229 --> 00:29:27,249
uh, and then one Minor point that
just kind of has to be said so one

537
00:29:27,249 --> 00:29:29,254
collaborator was Organized noise.

538
00:29:29,424 --> 00:29:33,044
So Sleepy Brown and Rico Wade, we've
already mentioned the Atlanta connection,

539
00:29:33,044 --> 00:29:39,504
but between organized noise, uh, and
then being label mates with OutKast, who

540
00:29:39,504 --> 00:29:45,611
was becoming the OutKast that we would
come to know at that time, they are not

541
00:29:45,621 --> 00:29:50,768
just at that moment, right, steeped in
Atlanta, but in sort of like a mutually

542
00:29:50,778 --> 00:29:56,955
beneficial rising out of the type of music
that they're doing into this you know,

543
00:29:56,985 --> 00:30:01,045
TLC is pushing into R and B, but label
mates are pushing into Southern hip hop.

544
00:30:01,355 --> 00:30:04,975
And one of the things that's beautiful
about, well, beautiful to me, at least

545
00:30:04,975 --> 00:30:10,005
as someone who loves this, having those
two things take off at once and then

546
00:30:10,005 --> 00:30:14,875
using collaborators and producers who
are going across both of those worlds.

547
00:30:14,875 --> 00:30:20,315
It means that in this
record, you can find Yeah.

548
00:30:20,345 --> 00:30:25,295
Like you can find Southern hip hop in it,
or you don't have to, if you don't want

549
00:30:25,295 --> 00:30:27,075
to, cause there's other stuff in it too.

550
00:30:27,255 --> 00:30:30,895
It's not just outcast with
female vocals very clearly.

551
00:30:30,915 --> 00:30:31,275
Right.

552
00:30:31,665 --> 00:30:35,665
But it's also not just,
uh, smooth R and B.

553
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:41,030
The three individual members of TLC
would describe themselves musically

554
00:30:41,070 --> 00:30:46,200
as individually different that worked
well together as a cohesive, um, and

555
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:53,240
so being able to collaborate with the
folks who were effectively inventing the

556
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:59,620
transition from funkadelic into hip hop
and being able to use that on this record

557
00:30:59,630 --> 00:31:02,435
meant that to a point you made earlier.

558
00:31:02,445 --> 00:31:08,035
There is detail and depth that would
simply would not have existed otherwise.

559
00:31:08,385 --> 00:31:15,165
Um, and I hate conjecture the most,
but let me give an, a possible example.

560
00:31:15,555 --> 00:31:18,735
I don't think you end up with the
guitar solo on red light district,

561
00:31:19,015 --> 00:31:24,435
unless you've got some odd influences
about what makes a great pop song.

562
00:31:25,735 --> 00:31:31,015
The vibe of that with if you were cranking
that out of a pop factory, no need right?

563
00:31:31,455 --> 00:31:35,485
You got the hook Everything's there
and so everything here has just

564
00:31:35,485 --> 00:31:39,675
this little extra feel That once
you see all of those producers

565
00:31:39,675 --> 00:31:41,985
and collaborators You start to go.

566
00:31:42,035 --> 00:31:43,575
Oh That's probably them.

567
00:31:43,815 --> 00:31:45,105
Oh, that's probably them.

568
00:31:45,395 --> 00:31:46,805
Oh, this other thing they were.

569
00:31:47,075 --> 00:31:48,575
Oh, this sounds like that.

570
00:31:48,815 --> 00:31:53,565
Oh, and like it really opens up an
interesting bit about the music.

571
00:31:54,065 --> 00:31:56,625
The painful bit that
I keep alluding to it.

572
00:31:56,635 --> 00:32:00,125
One of the Producers and
collaborators is we'll just refer

573
00:32:00,125 --> 00:32:01,515
to him by his normal ass name.

574
00:32:01,515 --> 00:32:04,335
Sean, John combs was involved in the shit.

575
00:32:04,335 --> 00:32:05,925
He doesn't get any cool nicknames.

576
00:32:06,185 --> 00:32:09,435
as the crow flies, we were
recording this in a moment where

577
00:32:09,795 --> 00:32:12,535
Kyle: defendant 204, 19 dash a,

578
00:32:13,975 --> 00:32:17,315
Cliff: Yeah we're in a moment where
potentially a small fraction of the

579
00:32:17,315 --> 00:32:22,245
justice that seems to be coming to
that individual may be on its way.

580
00:32:22,395 --> 00:32:24,575
However, that's not what
this episode is about.

581
00:32:25,165 --> 00:32:29,175
Nor do we really need to talk about
that or give a huge shit about that

582
00:32:29,175 --> 00:32:32,415
in this moment But what we're not
going to do is be afraid to mention

583
00:32:32,415 --> 00:32:34,375
it Like it's some sort of thing.

584
00:32:34,375 --> 00:32:36,465
We're not allowed to talk
about like it happened.

585
00:32:36,635 --> 00:32:41,255
It was part of this album He was a part
of it That doesn't mean you have to hate

586
00:32:41,415 --> 00:32:46,152
this record doesn't mean you have to hate
tlc You can be as suspicious as you want

587
00:32:46,152 --> 00:32:48,642
to be Just as you should be about what?

588
00:32:49,009 --> 00:32:54,019
Entertainment and wealthy related
folks are doing at all times.

589
00:32:54,059 --> 00:32:54,589
That's fine.

590
00:32:55,277 --> 00:32:58,797
Kyle: The diddy stuff is in a category
of its own entirely So i'm not trying

591
00:32:58,797 --> 00:33:01,597
to compare it to anything else that
we've ever talked about, right?

592
00:33:02,017 --> 00:33:05,227
i'm not standing him up against
any figures, but like we started

593
00:33:05,247 --> 00:33:06,777
the season with marvin gay

594
00:33:06,787 --> 00:33:07,037
Cliff: Yep,

595
00:33:07,257 --> 00:33:10,707
Kyle: and part of the core of that episode
was like he's a bit of a problematic

596
00:33:10,707 --> 00:33:19,451
messenger for You A like perfect piece
of music and the more music or art or

597
00:33:19,931 --> 00:33:25,011
human coexistence that you do you have
to hold that uneasy tension and your

598
00:33:25,021 --> 00:33:30,011
heart and that's been a heartbreaking,
but also sort of liberating experience.

599
00:33:30,601 --> 00:33:35,757
Part of getting older and more seasoned
and jaded Is like you got to navigate

600
00:33:35,757 --> 00:33:40,904
your own policy around Whatever that
shit it like if you go around outright

601
00:33:40,904 --> 00:33:47,614
canceling things Because your politics
are at odds with them or they represent

602
00:33:47,754 --> 00:33:53,033
horrible trauma or an easy truth you're
going to isolate yourself from pretty much

603
00:33:53,033 --> 00:33:54,913
all the human condition at some point.

604
00:33:54,923 --> 00:33:58,805
So it sucks, but it just is what it is.

605
00:33:58,836 --> 00:34:00,756
and the only way out is through.

606
00:34:00,776 --> 00:34:05,352
and in fact, thinking about this sort of
stuff through the context of music does

607
00:34:05,352 --> 00:34:08,314
give you a bit of a coping mechanism for.

608
00:34:08,374 --> 00:34:13,244
any of the horrors of the world and
how you cope with the trauma of just

609
00:34:13,244 --> 00:34:18,084
waking up and existing on a burning
planet, you know, um, it, it is like a

610
00:34:18,094 --> 00:34:22,544
small practice run comfort of learning
how to deal with some of those things.

611
00:34:22,869 --> 00:34:25,269
Cliff: one long running
thread through this podcast.

612
00:34:26,504 --> 00:34:32,991
Has been not being afraid to mention
and address The negative aspects of

613
00:34:32,991 --> 00:34:36,581
things that may have happened during
the album about the album as a result

614
00:34:36,581 --> 00:34:38,191
of the album Whatever it is good

615
00:34:38,191 --> 00:34:38,901
Kyle: with the bad.

616
00:34:38,901 --> 00:34:39,191
Cliff: Yeah.

617
00:34:39,373 --> 00:34:44,753
That is why I've come to love music so
much as a lens to look at things through

618
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,047
because If you're gonna be a bonehead
you could point at us Just like you can

619
00:34:49,047 --> 00:34:52,987
point at a lot of things and go jesus does
everything have to come back to racism

620
00:34:53,027 --> 00:34:55,687
Well, yeah, it seems like it Like shit.

621
00:34:55,957 --> 00:34:58,567
Well, I didn't do it, but
yeah, it kind of does.

622
00:34:58,597 --> 00:35:00,747
And it mostly has to do
with the fact that As long

623
00:35:00,747 --> 00:35:03,057
Kyle: as the same street is called
two different things on either

624
00:35:03,057 --> 00:35:04,997
side of an intersection in 2024.

625
00:35:05,197 --> 00:35:05,477
Yeah.

626
00:35:05,477 --> 00:35:06,067
Fuck yeah.

627
00:35:06,067 --> 00:35:06,497
Everything

628
00:35:06,847 --> 00:35:06,937
Cliff: is.

629
00:35:07,567 --> 00:35:08,137
Uh huh.

630
00:35:08,687 --> 00:35:12,377
Kyle: until my list gets longer
than 20 examples in a single breath.

631
00:35:12,457 --> 00:35:12,857
Yeah.

632
00:35:13,147 --> 00:35:13,867
Sorry, bro.

633
00:35:13,927 --> 00:35:14,767
It is what it is.

634
00:35:15,134 --> 00:35:21,664
Cliff: But that's why It's part of why we
talk about listening to and appreciating

635
00:35:21,664 --> 00:35:24,194
and exploring music as a practice.

636
00:35:24,624 --> 00:35:27,884
Because if you look hard enough
at anything, you're gonna find

637
00:35:27,884 --> 00:35:29,524
some bad shit that happened.

638
00:35:29,734 --> 00:35:32,684
Kyle: By the way, the same could be
said of yourself, of like looking

639
00:35:32,684 --> 00:35:34,158
Cliff: inward too.

640
00:35:34,525 --> 00:35:38,535
So, that's why, instead of, like you
said, instead of ever saying, Nope,

641
00:35:38,545 --> 00:35:42,185
we hate all of that and we can never
associate with it, or then on the other

642
00:35:42,185 --> 00:35:45,255
hand, none of that matters, that's not
what it's about, we're gonna separate

643
00:35:45,295 --> 00:35:46,685
art from the artist or whatever.

644
00:35:46,975 --> 00:35:50,495
Neither of those two booleans
actually work for people who give a

645
00:35:50,495 --> 00:35:54,195
shit about anything or are curious
about understanding something.

646
00:35:54,635 --> 00:35:59,415
And so, again, in that vein Not only
can you appreciate this deeply while

647
00:35:59,415 --> 00:36:04,385
acknowledging some of the very fucked up
stuff that is buried under the stories

648
00:36:04,395 --> 00:36:10,295
here of this record and this group,
things like that, but you can, even

649
00:36:10,325 --> 00:36:14,925
if it is distasteful to you in a way
that's really hard for you to get over

650
00:36:15,215 --> 00:36:17,635
on any piece of music or art, fine.

651
00:36:17,975 --> 00:36:22,855
Use it as a lens to go find the
other things that are related to it.

652
00:36:23,335 --> 00:36:28,452
And go appreciate that so if you need to
do it indirectly fine But it's always our

653
00:36:28,452 --> 00:36:33,162
challenge that like like we are bringing
you albums that are all very different

654
00:36:33,412 --> 00:36:38,642
one right after the other every episode
is I mean if there's a topic a common

655
00:36:38,642 --> 00:36:43,432
topic to the Unprompted messages we get
from people who listen to this podcast.

656
00:36:43,592 --> 00:36:46,182
It is mostly holy shit.

657
00:36:46,732 --> 00:36:48,982
Those are all very different Artists.

658
00:36:49,492 --> 00:36:49,912
Uh huh.

659
00:36:49,952 --> 00:36:55,722
They are they are and we do that not
only because we like it but also because

660
00:36:55,982 --> 00:37:00,612
It is really it makes you better at
loving the thing itself when you have

661
00:37:00,612 --> 00:37:05,912
to confront things that don't fit your
genre Specifications or don't feel

662
00:37:05,912 --> 00:37:09,862
great in terms of the history of how
they happened or whatever There might

663
00:37:09,862 --> 00:37:14,912
be a problematic person involved cool
embrace it figure out how to work with it

664
00:37:15,018 --> 00:37:19,584
Kyle: and at some point the turtle
all the way down is, a therapist

665
00:37:19,584 --> 00:37:24,694
would tell you that you're trying to
convince yourself that you are good by

666
00:37:24,934 --> 00:37:27,174
what you do or don't associate with.

667
00:37:27,648 --> 00:37:29,962
try to find a little kindness in yourself.

668
00:37:30,022 --> 00:37:33,845
And I'll also say bringing it back
to this specific record, that, the

669
00:37:33,845 --> 00:37:39,035
involvement, this name in the liner
notes is like the fifth biggest trauma

670
00:37:39,085 --> 00:37:42,205
related to TLC that they had to endure.

671
00:37:42,375 --> 00:37:48,095
So, so I would rather talk about any of
those as a point of evidence of their

672
00:37:48,175 --> 00:37:53,522
incredible resilience than I would
like to mention what's his face again.

673
00:37:53,582 --> 00:37:53,852
Cliff: Yep.

674
00:37:54,174 --> 00:37:59,189
Kyle: And also point for me, I think on
male collaborators, I would similarly

675
00:37:59,189 --> 00:38:01,380
like to celebrate organized noise.

676
00:38:01,570 --> 00:38:03,850
We lost Rico Wade earlier this year.

677
00:38:04,117 --> 00:38:08,087
I would encourage you to go read
his New York times obituary to know

678
00:38:08,087 --> 00:38:09,933
like What a Titan that dude was.

679
00:38:10,323 --> 00:38:13,973
Thankfully, we still have Ray Murray
and especially Sleepy Brown, who's been

680
00:38:14,253 --> 00:38:18,603
the quiet architect of so much of the
sound of the past 25 years and like,

681
00:38:19,103 --> 00:38:24,423
is nowhere near getting his flowers
for the importance of what he's done.

682
00:38:24,790 --> 00:38:28,160
You know, you made the point about
the guitar solo and red light special.

683
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,360
And that song is not an
organized noise song.

684
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,290
It's waterfalls and something
wicked this way comes where we

685
00:38:33,290 --> 00:38:34,560
get the organized noise treatment.

686
00:38:35,524 --> 00:38:39,814
A couple of connections there
that are interesting, Sleepy's dad

687
00:38:40,384 --> 00:38:47,431
was in the funk group Brick that
had the minor hit Daz in the 70s.

688
00:38:47,441 --> 00:38:54,131
So there's already a strain of real thick,
specific, syrupy southern funk there.

689
00:38:54,609 --> 00:39:00,959
Curtis Mayfield lived in the neighborhood
in Southwest Atlanta or had a house in

690
00:39:00,959 --> 00:39:05,673
the neighborhood and was a mentor and
influence on the organized noise guys.

691
00:39:06,063 --> 00:39:11,678
So there's a huge funk and black
American music lineage there as well.

692
00:39:12,048 --> 00:39:14,738
That's not overt, but runs really deep.

693
00:39:15,288 --> 00:39:19,908
And then to your point, there's
Funkadelic and there's a huge through

694
00:39:19,908 --> 00:39:25,638
line because of TLC and because of
their collaborators from Funkadelic to

695
00:39:25,678 --> 00:39:30,065
Prince, and lightning bolt black music.

696
00:39:30,465 --> 00:39:34,319
and I just want to, I want to give
everybody their props for taking some

697
00:39:34,319 --> 00:39:38,521
of the most electric strains of, stuff
that hadn't really gotten its due

698
00:39:38,881 --> 00:39:42,111
in the lexicon of the past 30 years
and stuff that was very much of the

699
00:39:42,111 --> 00:39:47,501
moment and mashing them together in
ways that people were only beginning

700
00:39:47,501 --> 00:39:49,091
to understand or think was possible.

701
00:39:49,458 --> 00:39:50,768
Cliff: Prince will come up again.

702
00:39:51,048 --> 00:39:52,198
So if that excited you.

703
00:39:52,268 --> 00:39:54,088
I,

704
00:39:54,948 --> 00:39:58,068
Kyle: you mentioned on a recent episode,
there was somebody that we'd been name

705
00:39:58,068 --> 00:40:05,079
checking a decent amount for rel maybe,
but like, I feel like I talk about

706
00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:10,065
prance on this podcast and then my
real life on at least a weekly basis.

707
00:40:10,287 --> 00:40:15,611
I don't think I have been more
captivated and influenced by a

708
00:40:15,611 --> 00:40:18,561
single music artist more than Prince.

709
00:40:18,928 --> 00:40:22,669
And as is made clear by these
conversations, that sentiment

710
00:40:22,669 --> 00:40:25,759
is shared by many of the artists
whose music we discover and love.

711
00:40:26,126 --> 00:40:26,546
Cliff: It's fun.

712
00:40:26,556 --> 00:40:29,496
Cause I think we probably came
to our Prince episode thinking,

713
00:40:29,696 --> 00:40:31,086
I appreciate Prince already.

714
00:40:32,396 --> 00:40:34,133
I was only beginning.

715
00:40:34,723 --> 00:40:37,213
Kyle: That's my literal
favorite part of this podcast.

716
00:40:37,213 --> 00:40:41,367
And I think I've said some flavor
of it before is the episode that

717
00:40:41,427 --> 00:40:46,247
we record about a thing is the
prelude At best to our relationship

718
00:40:46,247 --> 00:40:47,757
with that artist and that album.

719
00:40:47,787 --> 00:40:52,272
Yeah, I don't start understanding
what to appreciate or how to love

720
00:40:52,312 --> 00:40:57,032
a thing until we've talked about it
and I have sort of a basic framework.

721
00:40:57,532 --> 00:40:58,622
That's true with Prince.

722
00:40:58,672 --> 00:40:59,752
That's true with Thela.

723
00:40:59,832 --> 00:41:01,262
That's true with Alice Coltrane.

724
00:41:01,492 --> 00:41:02,552
That's true with Bjork.

725
00:41:02,682 --> 00:41:06,392
That's true with so much at
the Allman Brothers that we've

726
00:41:06,392 --> 00:41:07,592
listened to our whole lives.

727
00:41:08,112 --> 00:41:09,542
That's true for Dolly Parton.

728
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:15,018
I like Shudder to revisit some of the old
conversations, but I would say, what are

729
00:41:15,018 --> 00:41:20,968
we, this is episode 58 or something if you
are a person inclined to keep a journal,

730
00:41:21,341 --> 00:41:26,798
do an album a day, an album a month in
your own life, and then at the end of

731
00:41:26,798 --> 00:41:32,265
the year, take all the main ideas and
revisit it all a year or five years later.

732
00:41:32,902 --> 00:41:35,892
Cliff: So actually that's kind
of inspired me to go into these

733
00:41:35,902 --> 00:41:38,712
parts that we like to do on these
episodes now where we try to help.

734
00:41:39,397 --> 00:41:45,437
Think through ways to listen to the record
on purpose experience it in new ways And

735
00:41:45,437 --> 00:41:49,557
one of the things we always talk about
then is especially in this first block

736
00:41:49,557 --> 00:41:54,898
here whether you've somehow not listened
to this record in recent memory Whether

737
00:41:54,898 --> 00:41:58,828
you're trying to get a little further into
it, whether you're just reminding yourself

738
00:41:58,828 --> 00:42:03,655
of it What are some things that you can
do to take it in fresh in a fun way?

739
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:09,120
And specifically we like to point out
like so we do that exercise each time and

740
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,350
then try to call out a few things that
are like, Nope, that still surprised me.

741
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:13,430
I didn't expect it.

742
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:16,380
Like here's a thing that delighted
me when I didn't expect to.

743
00:42:16,747 --> 00:42:18,247
Any of those things pop out for you?

744
00:42:18,614 --> 00:42:19,104
Kyle: For sure.

745
00:42:19,324 --> 00:42:22,794
So you're talking about a record
with two of the three biggest songs

746
00:42:22,814 --> 00:42:27,574
of 1995, two of the biggest songs
of the 90s, four singles, five

747
00:42:27,574 --> 00:42:29,644
singles that all cracked the top 10.

748
00:42:29,802 --> 00:42:34,927
if you heard that today, And you're
thinking about like a Beyonce or a

749
00:42:34,927 --> 00:42:41,227
Taylor Swift or a Sabrina Carpenter or
a Chapel Rowne record, you're thinking

750
00:42:41,227 --> 00:42:43,644
about an incredible level of polish.

751
00:42:44,614 --> 00:42:48,564
The first thing that surprised me was
like, this is kind of rough around the

752
00:42:48,564 --> 00:42:52,764
edges from a production Perspective
and there are a few places where it

753
00:42:52,954 --> 00:42:56,854
borders on goofy Like I don't mean to
be disrespectful when I say that but

754
00:42:57,324 --> 00:43:03,519
sonically there are some choices that
I would not have made as a producer So

755
00:43:03,519 --> 00:43:09,435
like in kick your game, the scent is
like, almost got a splat thing to it.

756
00:43:09,495 --> 00:43:13,955
There's a video online of
Mac DeMarco playing demo.

757
00:43:13,965 --> 00:43:16,982
He's sitting at the computer at the
pro tools rig he's pulled up some

758
00:43:16,982 --> 00:43:23,119
demos and he plays one and that
demo in that viral video sounds

759
00:43:23,129 --> 00:43:24,749
like the kick your game scent.

760
00:43:26,123 --> 00:43:28,863
Mac DeMarco pauses it and he goes,
Sounds like shit, but it's fun.

761
00:43:30,693 --> 00:43:36,030
Um, and then in Digging On You, there's
like, It sounds like video game music.

762
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,271
It's like the demo
button on a Casio synth.

763
00:43:39,431 --> 00:43:45,431
But the big caveat is like you take
the song craft underneath that and

764
00:43:45,431 --> 00:43:49,591
it passes what has always been the
litmus for songwriter quality to me.

765
00:43:49,871 --> 00:43:52,511
Would this sound good with just
a voice and acoustic guitar?

766
00:43:52,771 --> 00:43:54,101
What have you compelled to listen to it?

767
00:43:54,151 --> 00:43:57,841
And I think the answer in almost all
of the cases on the record is yes.

768
00:43:57,962 --> 00:44:01,692
Cliff: you should force seal to
cover all of your songs acoustically

769
00:44:01,692 --> 00:44:03,072
before you commit them to record.

770
00:44:03,527 --> 00:44:05,007
If he can pull it off, you're good to go.

771
00:44:05,137 --> 00:44:07,557
Kyle: Can I just say, like,
we mentioned Kiss from a Rose.

772
00:44:07,607 --> 00:44:11,187
I want When I Die just to be
recorded on the internet somewhere.

773
00:44:11,477 --> 00:44:14,352
That like I think that's one of
the greatest songs of all time.

774
00:44:14,352 --> 00:44:16,002
I love that song so much.

775
00:44:16,642 --> 00:44:19,332
Honestly, just play that at
my funeral and smoke a joint.

776
00:44:21,399 --> 00:44:23,589
have you seen the video where
the guy comes home wasted

777
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:24,909
and he sings it to his cat?

778
00:44:25,879 --> 00:44:28,429
He's on the floor, his cat's
trying to get away from him.

779
00:44:29,924 --> 00:44:32,094
And he sings it and it's like pretty good.

780
00:44:32,424 --> 00:44:35,304
I would love everyone to get
wasted or it's also in community

781
00:44:35,304 --> 00:44:36,804
where they do the karaoke.

782
00:44:37,544 --> 00:44:40,854
The best thing anyone could do is like
get absolutely shit house and sing

783
00:44:40,894 --> 00:44:44,414
kiss from a rose off key in a backyard
and get the cops called on them.

784
00:44:44,514 --> 00:44:45,354
That would make me happy.

785
00:44:45,354 --> 00:44:46,134
Fantastic.

786
00:44:46,308 --> 00:44:47,758
Um, but the other thing is.

787
00:44:48,074 --> 00:44:52,474
we half joked at the beginning of the
episode about women containing multitudes.

788
00:44:52,594 --> 00:44:54,204
There's dimension to this record.

789
00:44:54,268 --> 00:44:57,288
it's not one thing or even
two things mashed together.

790
00:44:57,288 --> 00:45:01,388
There's, there's still really isn't
anything that sounds quite like this

791
00:45:01,398 --> 00:45:09,483
Venn diagram of Subtle, thoughtful
hip hop elements, good soul voices.

792
00:45:09,512 --> 00:45:15,579
the main thing that struck me about that
was like, it gets almost motoric in some

793
00:45:15,579 --> 00:45:21,649
places, like in the can sense there's some
like minimal head nod groove, a lot of the

794
00:45:21,649 --> 00:45:25,596
arrangements, not a lot, but some of the
arrangements can be like kind of sparse.

795
00:45:25,636 --> 00:45:25,796
Yep.

796
00:45:26,101 --> 00:45:30,791
and not crazy dynamic, but
in a really interesting way.

797
00:45:31,271 --> 00:45:36,291
So you take the production and think
about like hip hop bars on all of them.

798
00:45:36,551 --> 00:45:39,571
You take away the hardness of
what a vocalist would do there.

799
00:45:39,921 --> 00:45:44,961
A Nas, a Fife Dog, a Busta Rhymes,
and it gets sort of hypnotic.

800
00:45:44,971 --> 00:45:48,491
So like I was listening to case of the
fake people with the OJ's backstabbers

801
00:45:48,571 --> 00:45:53,031
interpolation and thinking about
the softness of the vocals with that

802
00:45:53,471 --> 00:45:55,831
sort of rolling groove and was like.

803
00:45:56,198 --> 00:46:01,515
I can't think of anything else that
achieves a sort of like Fela, Afrobeat,

804
00:46:02,105 --> 00:46:07,195
Hypnotic thing, but it's also a pop,
like make no mistake, it's a pop record.

805
00:46:07,615 --> 00:46:11,365
So to do both those things
is, I can't think of a single

806
00:46:11,365 --> 00:46:12,585
other record that does that.

807
00:46:12,923 --> 00:46:17,663
And maybe, maybe it does it to some
degree, but it doesn't, you know?

808
00:46:17,856 --> 00:46:21,026
Cliff: As usual, you just got me thinking
about something while I need to talk my

809
00:46:21,026 --> 00:46:22,896
shit into a microphone, so apologies.

810
00:46:23,366 --> 00:46:25,066
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.

811
00:46:25,612 --> 00:46:28,752
one of the things we might talk about
later that we like to do sometimes

812
00:46:28,752 --> 00:46:34,422
to bust things out is like listen to
these albums in unexpected contexts.

813
00:46:35,012 --> 00:46:39,347
So, this one, I noticed what you were
talking about in terms of the sparse

814
00:46:39,347 --> 00:46:44,567
recording because I played it at a Low
volume while I was doing something else

815
00:46:44,987 --> 00:46:49,077
And realized that the beat was harder to
keep up with in a lot of situations than

816
00:46:49,077 --> 00:46:53,037
I kind of expected And it was because
it didn't come along with the really

817
00:46:53,047 --> 00:46:59,387
dense heavy Beat level production that we
usually have now It wasn't like rattling

818
00:46:59,387 --> 00:47:01,297
my headphones every time an 808 hit.

819
00:47:01,664 --> 00:47:03,779
It's just A little bit more
like a light kick drum.

820
00:47:03,799 --> 00:47:04,069
Yeah.

821
00:47:04,249 --> 00:47:09,628
And especially if you don't have it
actively turned up, EQ'd, something like

822
00:47:09,628 --> 00:47:12,398
that it actually feels pretty light.

823
00:47:12,978 --> 00:47:16,468
And yeah, that I noticed, I wouldn't
have described it the same way, but

824
00:47:16,468 --> 00:47:17,758
notice something similar to you.

825
00:47:18,258 --> 00:47:19,598
Kyle: Mean, I think it's another place.

826
00:47:19,598 --> 00:47:22,380
There's definitely a Prince
influence because I don't

827
00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:26,880
necessarily listen to Prince for
the way those songs were recorded.

828
00:47:26,985 --> 00:47:32,652
Or produce, but the songs are
so good that some of the, of the

829
00:47:32,652 --> 00:47:37,762
moment production choices are really
like risk, you know, like trying

830
00:47:37,762 --> 00:47:40,012
to forge new territory sonically.

831
00:47:41,137 --> 00:47:45,817
I don't know, I think by like trying
to make a, Timeless, objectively

832
00:47:45,827 --> 00:47:48,287
best sounding ever record.

833
00:47:48,827 --> 00:47:53,687
You sacrifice uniqueness, you know,
it makes it a little more medical

834
00:47:53,717 --> 00:47:56,767
Cliff: commit too hard to the moment
and the way the moment sounds.

835
00:47:56,777 --> 00:47:57,187
Kyle: Yeah.

836
00:47:57,207 --> 00:47:57,547
Cliff: Yeah.

837
00:47:57,627 --> 00:47:57,897
Kyle: Yeah.

838
00:47:58,187 --> 00:48:02,337
Or the opposite trying to make a
thing that doesn't sound like it

839
00:48:02,347 --> 00:48:04,517
was made in 85 or whatever, and.

840
00:48:05,182 --> 00:48:07,892
It's hermetically sealed
and you can't place it.

841
00:48:08,352 --> 00:48:14,174
This is right smack in between
the two, it, forges new territory.

842
00:48:14,644 --> 00:48:17,134
It doesn't cash in on trends.

843
00:48:17,524 --> 00:48:21,724
And as a result, some of it reads
a little weird 30 years on, but

844
00:48:21,724 --> 00:48:23,174
it's like, I wouldn't change it.

845
00:48:23,214 --> 00:48:24,964
Cause it would it makes it what it is.

846
00:48:25,530 --> 00:48:26,110
What about you?

847
00:48:26,110 --> 00:48:27,384
What, surprised you?

848
00:48:27,484 --> 00:48:31,764
Cliff: I had surprises that made me
smile to myself while I was listening.

849
00:48:32,234 --> 00:48:37,564
And then surprises that were less
goofy, uh, and more serious, I guess.

850
00:48:37,854 --> 00:48:38,274
Why not?

851
00:48:38,294 --> 00:48:41,824
I'll just talk about it like
I'm a goofy ass white guy.

852
00:48:42,221 --> 00:48:42,571
Oh!

853
00:48:42,951 --> 00:48:43,871
There's Fivetog!

854
00:48:43,951 --> 00:48:44,711
Right at the beginning.

855
00:48:44,951 --> 00:48:47,151
Like, just like, oh, where's that voice?

856
00:48:47,341 --> 00:48:49,246
I Placed got it.

857
00:48:49,546 --> 00:48:53,908
Okay, I mean just being honest,
that's probably not a connection.

858
00:48:53,988 --> 00:48:59,708
I immediately Recognized the first time
I listened to this record when I was

859
00:48:59,708 --> 00:49:04,908
a child presumably at a sparkles doing
some sort of skating Around in a circle.

860
00:49:04,908 --> 00:49:10,818
I don't know But I wouldn't have clocked
that necessarily And also just to kind

861
00:49:10,818 --> 00:49:12,798
of like jump and book in this thing.

862
00:49:12,808 --> 00:49:16,290
I mean, you know Maybe I would have
done this back in the day, but you know,

863
00:49:16,310 --> 00:49:20,530
immediately you clock three stacks at the
end, which, spoiler alert, there he is.

864
00:49:20,530 --> 00:49:21,810
We'll talk some more about that.

865
00:49:22,060 --> 00:49:22,240
Oh, you

866
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:23,870
Kyle: mean Dre from Outkast,

867
00:49:23,870 --> 00:49:24,070
Cliff: as he's

868
00:49:24,070 --> 00:49:24,430
Kyle: credited?

869
00:49:25,610 --> 00:49:26,900
Cliff: Andre, yes.

870
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:27,420
Kyle: Oh, yeah.

871
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:33,810
Cliff: So, you've got immediately your
book ending a really important record.

872
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,557
That is, not just ostensibly, but
clearly and deliberately about female

873
00:49:38,557 --> 00:49:43,087
empowerment, about the literal, specific
three people that are in this record and

874
00:49:43,087 --> 00:49:47,847
yet you've got the current face of the
moment and then what would become a new

875
00:49:47,857 --> 00:49:52,764
face of hip hop immediately afterwards,
just pleasantly surrounding you inside

876
00:49:52,764 --> 00:49:57,674
of your album, not Showing you up,
not taking over, not doing all the

877
00:49:57,674 --> 00:50:02,941
singles, just literally five dog on an
intro, three sax on a verse at the end.

878
00:50:03,308 --> 00:50:07,672
And like just, clocking those
things in that moment and having

879
00:50:07,672 --> 00:50:11,432
the delight of just like, God, I
hope everybody had fun doing this.

880
00:50:11,782 --> 00:50:16,012
I love so much of what came out of just
these people that I immediately recognize.

881
00:50:16,379 --> 00:50:17,569
And so it's sort of.

882
00:50:17,904 --> 00:50:24,091
In a goofy sense just occurred to me how
enjoyable it is to be able to understand

883
00:50:24,101 --> 00:50:29,191
references so quickly like the payoff is
supposed to be if you read all the comics

884
00:50:29,191 --> 00:50:33,571
and then watch marvel shit in the sense
of like oh I understood that reference and

885
00:50:33,571 --> 00:50:37,759
it's funny That's cool to be able to do in
music and it was cool to do here in a way

886
00:50:37,759 --> 00:50:42,094
that I couldn't have done before I became
an adult who spent a lot of time trying

887
00:50:42,094 --> 00:50:43,614
to get better at listening to music.

888
00:50:43,894 --> 00:50:47,254
So as always, I appreciate that
particular bit and it just sort

889
00:50:47,254 --> 00:50:48,554
of stood out and delighted me.

890
00:50:48,974 --> 00:50:53,354
But then even in between those, like
I would have moments like, Again,

891
00:50:53,594 --> 00:50:59,074
if I was your girlfriend came on and
now, nowadays, immediately I clock it.

892
00:50:59,144 --> 00:51:00,354
Oh, print song.

893
00:51:00,594 --> 00:51:02,204
That's why the bass sounds like this.

894
00:51:02,394 --> 00:51:05,894
That's why the group, like, that's
why this exact rhythm is working.

895
00:51:06,054 --> 00:51:09,004
That's why the bass is not doing too much.

896
00:51:09,034 --> 00:51:12,374
And yet sounds like it's doing
exactly what it's supposed to do

897
00:51:12,614 --> 00:51:15,984
in a way that none of the other
songs up until now were doing.

898
00:51:16,584 --> 00:51:21,034
Which didn't mean any of them sounded
bad, just immediately recognizable

899
00:51:21,034 --> 00:51:22,514
as something really specific.

900
00:51:22,881 --> 00:51:29,498
And that we usually get with hip hop, the
like, here's where the sample comes from.

901
00:51:29,798 --> 00:51:33,503
And you can sort of take yourself down
different roads, like, this felt more

902
00:51:33,503 --> 00:51:36,013
like bringing guests out on stage.

903
00:51:36,033 --> 00:51:40,493
Like this was like J Cole showing up at
one music fest last year and just like,

904
00:51:40,543 --> 00:51:42,763
Oh, well, everyone knows who that is now.

905
00:51:43,033 --> 00:51:44,242
now I see her now he's gone.

906
00:51:44,562 --> 00:51:50,062
And the obviousness of it made it
feel so important all of a sudden.

907
00:51:50,122 --> 00:51:50,362
Yeah.

908
00:51:50,512 --> 00:51:55,097
Like the star studded cast of
the thing, um, really stood out

909
00:51:55,097 --> 00:51:57,227
to me, made me appreciate it.

910
00:51:57,527 --> 00:52:02,844
And then that was what really started
exciting me in a genuine way about like,

911
00:52:02,904 --> 00:52:06,804
oh, this is gonna be one of those records
where I just need to write down everything

912
00:52:06,804 --> 00:52:08,814
I think about as it comes to me.

913
00:52:09,144 --> 00:52:11,154
I need to take notes, I
need to make an outline.

914
00:52:11,424 --> 00:52:11,844
I need to.

915
00:52:12,211 --> 00:52:13,871
Ask an AI a question.

916
00:52:13,901 --> 00:52:17,891
I need to Google whatever man,
like anything and everything is now

917
00:52:17,921 --> 00:52:22,791
interesting to me about this and it
put me in that mood really quickly.

918
00:52:23,221 --> 00:52:28,178
And it's, I mean, it's hard to do that for
me these days, at least so immediately.

919
00:52:28,545 --> 00:52:30,535
So that surprised me.

920
00:52:30,902 --> 00:52:31,347
And then.

921
00:52:32,968 --> 00:52:37,718
counterpoints or, uh, I guess, uh,
or two things that sort of stand in

922
00:52:37,718 --> 00:52:42,418
opposition of each other, almost like
on one hand, the red light special

923
00:52:42,418 --> 00:52:45,868
guitar solo just hit me in a totally
fresh way than I'd ever had before.

924
00:52:45,868 --> 00:52:46,088
Yeah.

925
00:52:46,088 --> 00:52:47,038
I mean, I've heard the song.

926
00:52:47,518 --> 00:52:49,998
No, I didn't play it a lot when
I lived in my mama's house.

927
00:52:50,028 --> 00:52:54,258
Cause for a lot of reasons
but You know now okay.

928
00:52:54,288 --> 00:52:55,148
Yeah, i've heard a ton.

929
00:52:55,158 --> 00:52:55,868
It's recognizable.

930
00:52:55,868 --> 00:53:00,378
A lot of people like it the guitar solo
was Tasteful in a way that I really

931
00:53:00,378 --> 00:53:04,728
loved and that I appreciated in a new way
Uh and learned a little bit more about

932
00:53:04,728 --> 00:53:08,778
dwight sills the prolific r& b session
guitarist who played that solo because

933
00:53:08,778 --> 00:53:10,178
then I got really curious About it.

934
00:53:10,698 --> 00:53:14,028
Because, guitar is a thing I know a little
bit about, and I can try to recognize

935
00:53:14,348 --> 00:53:18,518
the sound from what I'm hearing, but
that one eluded me, so I got curious.

936
00:53:19,058 --> 00:53:23,178
On the other hand, just, heh heh,
straightforward by the time I got

937
00:53:23,188 --> 00:53:27,148
to Sexy Interlude, I remembered
why I fucking hated all skits.

938
00:53:28,278 --> 00:53:33,188
Uh, so just sort of being honest about,
uh, I was really, really enjoying it and

939
00:53:33,188 --> 00:53:36,888
I went back to really, really enjoying
it shortly after that but there's

940
00:53:36,888 --> 00:53:42,314
nothing wrong with just saying, I didn't
want to hear a toilet flush just now.

941
00:53:42,824 --> 00:53:43,524
Thank you.

942
00:53:43,924 --> 00:53:45,164
It's a funny joke.

943
00:53:45,165 --> 00:53:46,464
What

944
00:53:47,344 --> 00:53:50,274
Kyle: do you mean you didn't like
wear my panties on the left below?

945
00:53:51,133 --> 00:53:55,406
What, once again, you hit a handful
of really interesting things for me.

946
00:53:55,718 --> 00:53:58,188
I will say as a counterpoint
to your bit about skits.

947
00:53:58,458 --> 00:54:03,008
While the crazy sexy cool interlude is
an automatic skip for me and not just

948
00:54:03,008 --> 00:54:05,108
because of the yikes Diddy appeared part.

949
00:54:05,638 --> 00:54:11,068
That interlude is right on the tightrope
of swaggy and corny, you know, they do

950
00:54:11,078 --> 00:54:15,608
it with confidence They pull it off, but
I still hate it Um, but it's not for me.

951
00:54:15,758 --> 00:54:18,038
So like fine whatever it's of the moment.

952
00:54:18,038 --> 00:54:20,478
It's like it's a confidence swag thing.

953
00:54:21,118 --> 00:54:21,408
Cool.

954
00:54:21,418 --> 00:54:22,298
Great skip

955
00:54:22,945 --> 00:54:27,485
The intro lude and the intermission
lude I thought of As almost Sonic

956
00:54:27,485 --> 00:54:33,155
branding because they do the crazy,
sexy, cool thing, like underneath.

957
00:54:33,615 --> 00:54:38,415
And you kind of lose it a bit in, with
Fife and the star power of Fife in the

958
00:54:38,415 --> 00:54:41,005
intro, but then when they come back
to Interlude and it's like a palette

959
00:54:41,005 --> 00:54:48,277
cleanser, is You Interesting to me that
they do that, but specifically it reminds

960
00:54:48,277 --> 00:54:54,797
me of the lost art of the like classic
album interlude where you just have a

961
00:54:54,797 --> 00:54:58,207
rough idea and you like the vibe and
you don't want it to stay a demo and

962
00:54:58,207 --> 00:55:00,147
flush it out into a song years later.

963
00:55:00,447 --> 00:55:04,077
You're like, well, we'll just fade in
a minute of it and then have it be.

964
00:55:04,427 --> 00:55:07,867
A thing between two intense songs,
like nobody did that better than

965
00:55:07,867 --> 00:55:10,057
Sabbath for my money, right?

966
00:55:10,067 --> 00:55:14,330
So i'd put an in league with that or
like the title track from pet sounds Or

967
00:55:14,350 --> 00:55:18,930
radiohead occasionally did stuff like
that Uh wild honey pie by the beatles

968
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,610
is an example you mentioned pod earlier
in the season like I thought of checkin

969
00:55:23,620 --> 00:55:25,690
levels by pod, you know what I mean?

970
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,090
Like that's a lost art.

971
00:55:28,100 --> 00:55:29,190
That's a thing.

972
00:55:29,220 --> 00:55:29,530
All right.

973
00:55:29,530 --> 00:55:34,015
I'm with you, especially in the streaming
era where it's like, let me I put as many

974
00:55:34,045 --> 00:55:37,375
things out as I possibly can on a release.

975
00:55:38,245 --> 00:55:40,815
It is kind of surprising
that that's not a thing.

976
00:55:41,895 --> 00:55:42,675
And maybe it is.

977
00:55:42,675 --> 00:55:46,095
And I'm just like, it's a
weird anti confirmation bias,

978
00:55:46,095 --> 00:55:49,525
but I do really like that.

979
00:55:49,575 --> 00:55:53,608
And to use an outcast example,
another name that I hate saying out

980
00:55:53,608 --> 00:55:59,238
loud, club donkey ass that interlude
on, uh, on Southern Playalistic.

981
00:55:59,545 --> 00:56:06,555
there's like an 808 Miami bass thing
playing in the background and I've

982
00:56:06,555 --> 00:56:11,165
tried for years to find out what that
is and there's conflicting reports

983
00:56:11,165 --> 00:56:15,725
of what is actually playing, inside
the club as environmental noise.

984
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:20,819
so anyway, it has a, it is a point of
interest for me, uh, but also the sexy

985
00:56:20,819 --> 00:56:25,589
interlude musically reminds me of the,
after the dance instrumental on, I want

986
00:56:25,589 --> 00:56:27,859
you musically, they, they sound similar.

987
00:56:28,249 --> 00:56:31,079
So if you can like strip back
the dialogue part in your mind,

988
00:56:31,089 --> 00:56:34,758
another version of Cliff rids the
lyrics, there is some value there.

989
00:56:34,905 --> 00:56:35,835
couple of other things.

990
00:56:36,066 --> 00:56:41,376
you know, you mentioned the star power
of it all, like I specifically zoomed

991
00:56:41,426 --> 00:56:43,346
mentally in on the hip hop cred.

992
00:56:43,906 --> 00:56:47,816
Their first appearance as a group,
their first like big interview

993
00:56:47,816 --> 00:56:53,756
was on yo MTV wraps in 92 with
Ed lover and not producer Dr.

994
00:56:53,756 --> 00:56:54,016
Dre.

995
00:56:54,406 --> 00:56:58,436
So like they've always had a foot
in that world and respect in that

996
00:56:58,436 --> 00:57:04,126
world and like Left Eye was a really
underrated MC in terms of her cadences

997
00:57:04,126 --> 00:57:10,416
and like original voicing and surprising
that she's not on more lists and

998
00:57:10,416 --> 00:57:13,256
that's probably just because she
doesn't have that much discography.

999
00:57:13,946 --> 00:57:14,256
But.

1000
00:57:14,681 --> 00:57:19,091
Right off rip, you got Fife
interpolating two of his own songs,

1001
00:57:19,091 --> 00:57:20,891
like calling on his own greatest said.

1002
00:57:20,891 --> 00:57:24,331
So it really is to your point,
like pulling him out on stage

1003
00:57:24,371 --> 00:57:25,991
to, Hey, look, it's five.

1004
00:57:26,401 --> 00:57:31,428
When the, when Busta Rhymes appears
later on the record, my first thought

1005
00:57:31,428 --> 00:57:32,768
was like, what the fuck is he doing?

1006
00:57:32,768 --> 00:57:34,438
Like, what is he going for here?

1007
00:57:34,438 --> 00:57:35,868
What's the point of this?

1008
00:57:36,168 --> 00:57:36,818
Cause he's not.

1009
00:57:37,203 --> 00:57:39,683
He's like doing like slam poetry.

1010
00:57:39,933 --> 00:57:41,033
He's kind of flirting.

1011
00:57:41,033 --> 00:57:44,013
I don't, it's a way I've
never heard Busta before.

1012
00:57:44,380 --> 00:57:48,067
Where I landed on all of
that was everybody really

1013
00:57:48,067 --> 00:57:49,937
wants to be on this record.

1014
00:57:50,137 --> 00:57:50,507
Cliff: Yeah.

1015
00:57:50,607 --> 00:57:55,077
Kyle: All these dudes, it's not like,
oh, thanks for the co sign, you know,

1016
00:57:55,107 --> 00:57:57,007
like given a dap up to the girls.

1017
00:57:57,367 --> 00:58:02,007
They knew the same way that
Prince knew how special this group

1018
00:58:02,007 --> 00:58:03,577
was and they loved their music.

1019
00:58:03,597 --> 00:58:05,417
I'm like, yeah, I want
to be on that record.

1020
00:58:05,627 --> 00:58:06,787
That would be awesome.

1021
00:58:07,341 --> 00:58:10,331
So I think that's like mentally
where I've settled on it.

1022
00:58:10,811 --> 00:58:16,241
The last thing you mentioned, Dwight
Sills, I want to point out one other

1023
00:58:16,444 --> 00:58:19,134
session musician story that I dug up.

1024
00:58:19,164 --> 00:58:25,371
On Waterfalls, the bassist, kind of a
la the Prince slap bass on if I was your

1025
00:58:25,371 --> 00:58:33,098
girlfriend, the bassist is Mark Jefferson,
who goes by went by remarkable  The

1026
00:58:33,098 --> 00:58:38,908
provenance of this is unknown, but on the
talk base forum, there's a thread about

1027
00:58:39,068 --> 00:58:42,498
trying to find out who it was before

1028
00:58:42,908 --> 00:58:44,858
Cliff: God, I miss random early internet.

1029
00:58:44,858 --> 00:58:45,028
Right?

1030
00:58:45,028 --> 00:58:45,528
Oh my God.

1031
00:58:45,528 --> 00:58:46,458
Kyle: 2004.

1032
00:58:46,518 --> 00:58:48,318
This is so 10 years after the records out.

1033
00:58:49,704 --> 00:58:50,784
I'll just read the quote in full.

1034
00:58:50,794 --> 00:58:52,344
Mark remarkable Jefferson.

1035
00:58:52,474 --> 00:58:54,104
He's in my motorcycle club.

1036
00:58:54,334 --> 00:58:57,644
He played his quote best ho on that song.

1037
00:58:58,564 --> 00:59:03,124
That's what he calls his white Sadowski
for because she quote brings in the money.

1038
00:59:03,784 --> 00:59:05,534
He's one of the greatest
guys you'd ever meet.

1039
00:59:05,544 --> 00:59:07,114
He also co wrote the tedious.

1040
00:59:07,134 --> 00:59:07,544
Yeah.

1041
00:59:07,544 --> 00:59:08,504
Song by Usher.

1042
00:59:08,834 --> 00:59:11,994
By the way, waterfalls was improvised.

1043
00:59:12,361 --> 00:59:12,881
Good ear.

1044
00:59:13,081 --> 00:59:13,651
Cliff: Jesus.

1045
00:59:14,332 --> 00:59:18,182
Well, let me give one little rabbit
hole that you can chase if you'd like,

1046
00:59:18,192 --> 00:59:21,022
because one thing I didn't mention
about waterfalls, but now you've

1047
00:59:21,032 --> 00:59:22,402
brought it back up to my attention.

1048
00:59:22,769 --> 00:59:27,719
Obviously, I walked into this
with a bit of outcast framing.

1049
00:59:27,749 --> 00:59:31,549
That is our disease and cross
to bear together, me and you.

1050
00:59:31,819 --> 00:59:35,829
We'll probably always walk into every
situation with a little extra of that.

1051
00:59:36,086 --> 00:59:40,282
Kyle: I'll never not be happy about
that being our Rosetta Stone in music.

1052
00:59:40,802 --> 00:59:43,292
That gives us a dimension that.

1053
00:59:43,792 --> 00:59:50,862
The other 999 out of 1000 dudes with our
demographics at the shows we go to will

1054
00:59:50,862 --> 00:59:54,132
have just a fundamentally different lens.

1055
00:59:54,499 --> 00:59:59,309
Cliff: The around 3 minutes and
30 seconds in, in waterfalls.

1056
00:59:59,676 --> 01:00:04,576
Around the time where they used the lyric,
no more lonely cries, the way that the

1057
01:00:04,576 --> 01:00:12,393
bass keeps going and the beat drops out
reminded me so specifically of players

1058
01:00:12,393 --> 01:00:15,383
ball that it drove me absolutely nuts.

1059
01:00:15,383 --> 01:00:17,853
I had to listen to the song
immediately and all of that.

1060
01:00:18,263 --> 01:00:19,863
And for me, that.

1061
01:00:20,181 --> 01:00:26,071
This album is peppered with those just
the little like oh this oh that oh, oh,

1062
01:00:26,111 --> 01:00:33,838
yep Oh that reminds me of this and the way
that that gives me an appreciation for now

1063
01:00:33,848 --> 01:00:39,348
how that move that I otherwise associated
specifically and only with players ball

1064
01:00:39,488 --> 01:00:44,738
is, Oh, that's just a move that can exist
in other songs that I can appreciate.

1065
01:00:44,738 --> 01:00:49,535
Like just those little bits and in
understanding, you know, and maybe

1066
01:00:49,535 --> 01:00:56,100
it's also just a, a facet of the exact
timing of this record and how, Our age

1067
01:00:56,210 --> 01:01:00,920
at the time meant that we were probably
absorbing a lot of this passively

1068
01:01:01,380 --> 01:01:05,440
and then only later would like put
our adult brain thoughts onto it.

1069
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:10,307
But yeah, that was, uh, that was brought
up specifically just so I could tell

1070
01:01:10,307 --> 01:01:11,607
people to go listen to Playersball.

1071
01:01:11,887 --> 01:01:12,927
Kyle: In fairness.

1072
01:01:13,294 --> 01:01:17,274
Mark Jefferson, one of two bassists
credited on Southern Playalistic,

1073
01:01:17,494 --> 01:01:18,554
along with Preston Crump.

1074
01:01:18,664 --> 01:01:19,054
Even better.

1075
01:01:19,524 --> 01:01:20,204
Cliff: Amazing.

1076
01:01:20,205 --> 01:01:25,054
Kyle: He probably either played
on Players Ball or the title track

1077
01:01:25,054 --> 01:01:27,544
Southern Playalistic or Funky Ride.

1078
01:01:27,995 --> 01:01:30,255
Cliff: this was not a coy
setup to you, by the way.

1079
01:01:30,285 --> 01:01:31,045
I did not know that.

1080
01:01:31,615 --> 01:01:32,715
That is very cool.

1081
01:01:33,005 --> 01:01:33,465
Um,

1082
01:01:33,625 --> 01:01:37,775
Kyle: but like it was the organized
noise crew that you don't get a sound

1083
01:01:37,785 --> 01:01:43,695
that distinctive without a core little
group of cats that, it's like our

1084
01:01:43,695 --> 01:01:45,455
muscle shoals thing almost in a way.

1085
01:01:45,475 --> 01:01:50,410
One of my big takeaways was, you
know, organized noise could have

1086
01:01:50,410 --> 01:01:53,720
been a factory for this kind of R& B.

1087
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,900
They did hip hop, they mostly served
themselves in the music that they made.

1088
01:01:58,260 --> 01:02:01,370
They only did shit with their
friends that they wanted to do.

1089
01:02:01,810 --> 01:02:06,230
But they could have made I
think a hundred waterfalls.

1090
01:02:06,673 --> 01:02:10,143
and it's really fascinating to me that
their output is like relatively sparse

1091
01:02:10,163 --> 01:02:13,405
for the length of time that they operated.

1092
01:02:13,449 --> 01:02:16,569
they could have been like a muscle
shawls, but I'm glad for exactly

1093
01:02:16,579 --> 01:02:19,449
everything that we have gotten from them.

1094
01:02:20,059 --> 01:02:20,809
All of it's a gift.

1095
01:02:22,739 --> 01:02:24,449
Cliff: I'm glad they chose.

1096
01:02:24,979 --> 01:02:25,769
Not to chase it.

1097
01:02:26,957 --> 01:02:28,087
Who's the dad here?

1098
01:02:28,218 --> 01:02:30,208
you're rubbing off on me
every time we hang out.

1099
01:02:30,358 --> 01:02:31,598
It's always been me anyway.

1100
01:02:32,208 --> 01:02:33,778
You just have all the responsibility.

1101
01:02:34,208 --> 01:02:35,178
I have the weird humor.

1102
01:02:37,313 --> 01:02:41,373
there are plenty of segways into this,
but why not use waterfalls anyway?

1103
01:02:41,803 --> 01:02:45,523
I think it's worth mentioning, at
least to some degree this does not

1104
01:02:45,523 --> 01:02:49,743
need to be a tabloid level episode,
nor do we, for the most part, give.

1105
01:02:50,168 --> 01:02:54,395
Too many shits about people's
interpersonal connections, but Interesting

1106
01:02:54,405 --> 01:02:58,515
things happened during the recording
of this record and waterfalls is one

1107
01:02:58,515 --> 01:03:04,265
good way to talk about it Because left
eye recorded her part of waterfalls

1108
01:03:04,375 --> 01:03:10,105
during a two hour break from rehab And
it is worth mentioning not just because

1109
01:03:10,125 --> 01:03:14,602
yes, it's Something more important
than trivia to know that she was going

1110
01:03:14,662 --> 01:03:19,709
through a pretty difficult time and
was in a not great relationship during

1111
01:03:19,709 --> 01:03:21,219
these moments and things like that.

1112
01:03:21,414 --> 01:03:21,844
but

1113
01:03:21,909 --> 01:03:26,109
it's also just good to know why she
doesn't appear as much on this record

1114
01:03:26,179 --> 01:03:27,469
as she did on the previous one.

1115
01:03:28,159 --> 01:03:32,186
May not have been so much an
intentional choice, which is part

1116
01:03:32,216 --> 01:03:35,956
of why I can appreciate the beauty
of how great this record is.

1117
01:03:36,556 --> 01:03:43,588
The whole thing is about the equal
collaboration and Combination of these

1118
01:03:43,588 --> 01:03:49,028
three people and they had to take that
energy and find a way to still channel it

1119
01:03:49,138 --> 01:03:55,608
into the art Literally without having one
of those three people around as much Uh,

1120
01:03:55,608 --> 01:04:00,188
and that's part of why you don't see as
much left eye on this record which means

1121
01:04:00,508 --> 01:04:04,581
this opens up to me the there was a day
where I read an article in like guitar

1122
01:04:04,581 --> 01:04:08,851
world or something that was like You He
was interviewing Jimmy Page and I probably

1123
01:04:08,851 --> 01:04:12,791
talked about this before, but like Jimmy
Page for the first time ever was like, Oh

1124
01:04:12,791 --> 01:04:16,531
yeah, no, no, there's, there's like five
recorded solos to stairway to heaven.

1125
01:04:16,531 --> 01:04:17,301
We just picked one.

1126
01:04:17,691 --> 01:04:20,911
And the interview was like,
stop everything, forget

1127
01:04:20,961 --> 01:04:22,381
every question I've ever had.

1128
01:04:22,921 --> 01:04:25,411
There are other takes to the
greatest solo of all time.

1129
01:04:25,411 --> 01:04:25,881
He's just like.

1130
01:04:26,986 --> 01:04:27,506
Yeah, of course.

1131
01:04:28,101 --> 01:04:31,091
so immediately the interviewer gets
kind of sidetracked with like, well,

1132
01:04:31,091 --> 01:04:32,571
what was the, what would this mean?

1133
01:04:32,961 --> 01:04:37,341
And so similarly, like this gives a fun
little thought exercise to the thing

1134
01:04:37,351 --> 01:04:39,521
of like, it's this great of a record.

1135
01:04:39,641 --> 01:04:40,651
Would it have been better?

1136
01:04:41,151 --> 01:04:42,001
Would have been worse.

1137
01:04:42,271 --> 01:04:43,231
How different would it be?

1138
01:04:43,231 --> 01:04:44,311
Would it be more hip hop?

1139
01:04:44,311 --> 01:04:47,081
Would there be more funk
and organized noise if left?

1140
01:04:47,081 --> 01:04:54,215
I had more literal presence on the record
or was this interesting coincidence of

1141
01:04:54,215 --> 01:04:58,075
sorts that produce something that may
not have ever come out of them otherwise.

1142
01:04:58,385 --> 01:04:59,745
And we get this cool snapshot.

1143
01:04:59,935 --> 01:05:06,620
Like I love the kind of hypotheticals of
What those different decisions meant and

1144
01:05:06,620 --> 01:05:11,180
how they played out and how you can trace
those to every individual song and there's

1145
01:05:11,180 --> 01:05:16,097
so much story here without just having
to be like Yeah, her and andre reisen

1146
01:05:16,117 --> 01:05:22,122
had a bad relationship and she burned
down his house Like okay That is true.

1147
01:05:22,312 --> 01:05:23,212
There's a lot of details.

1148
01:05:23,212 --> 01:05:23,692
She burned his

1149
01:05:23,692 --> 01:05:24,182
Kyle: shoes.

1150
01:05:24,182 --> 01:05:25,041
The house just came with it.

1151
01:05:25,042 --> 01:05:25,582
Fair point.

1152
01:05:25,822 --> 01:05:26,672
Cliff: Well, okay.

1153
01:05:26,722 --> 01:05:27,532
That's a, yes.

1154
01:05:27,792 --> 01:05:32,274
That's the, that whole premise
of, the headline of the detail is

1155
01:05:32,274 --> 01:05:35,704
probably not the story that you want
to know about so you can go further.

1156
01:05:35,954 --> 01:05:39,864
You've got plenty of that here if you are
into everyone's interpersonal details.

1157
01:05:40,064 --> 01:05:42,194
Kyle: Schrodinger's crazy sexy cool.

1158
01:05:42,204 --> 01:05:42,744
Good grief.

1159
01:05:42,754 --> 01:05:43,114
Yeah.

1160
01:05:43,724 --> 01:05:44,014
But.

1161
01:05:44,164 --> 01:05:47,144
My version of that is
what would the third.

1162
01:05:47,429 --> 01:05:50,329
Skinnered album with Steve Gaines
and the band have sounded like

1163
01:05:50,329 --> 01:05:51,669
if there had been no plane crash.

1164
01:05:51,669 --> 01:05:53,389
I think about like what what?

1165
01:05:53,389 --> 01:05:57,531
1982 Leonard Skinner would have been like
I think about it all the time I listen to

1166
01:05:57,561 --> 01:06:01,671
the solo Steve Gaines stuff and I'm just
like man with it They would have been

1167
01:06:01,671 --> 01:06:03,161
the greatest country band of all time.

1168
01:06:03,681 --> 01:06:07,706
But now I just have to listen to what
the live rips of what Sturgill Simpson

1169
01:06:07,706 --> 01:06:09,926
is doing right now to get anywhere close.

1170
01:06:11,106 --> 01:06:12,986
You don't like the Leonard
Skinner Christmas albums

1171
01:06:12,986 --> 01:06:14,066
they're putting out these days?

1172
01:06:14,576 --> 01:06:18,416
No, the pro racism Leonard Skinner.

1173
01:06:18,416 --> 01:06:21,606
No, no, no, no.

1174
01:06:22,194 --> 01:06:25,714
Love, love my younger brothers, would not
want them to take over the band that is

1175
01:06:25,714 --> 01:06:28,064
my legacy, my very specific headspace.

1176
01:06:28,562 --> 01:06:33,417
but they also Recorded a lot
of this record separately.

1177
01:06:33,417 --> 01:06:34,427
It wasn't just left eye.

1178
01:06:34,457 --> 01:06:38,117
They talked about how a lot of
stuff was kind of done in parallel.

1179
01:06:38,157 --> 01:06:38,977
They ma shuggered it.

1180
01:06:39,177 --> 01:06:44,547
They ma shuggered it which belies What
you know one of my like track by track?

1181
01:06:44,914 --> 01:06:48,664
Insights and I think they talked about
this too is how they finally like

1182
01:06:48,864 --> 01:06:53,410
cracked the code on blending their
voices and their dynamics And that

1183
01:06:53,410 --> 01:06:57,240
seems like they would have only been
able to do that live in a room Hashing

1184
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:59,580
it out together instead of stacking.

1185
01:07:00,020 --> 01:07:02,940
We talked about this with Cocteau
Twins, but that was like their,

1186
01:07:02,940 --> 01:07:04,380
what, seventh or eighth record.

1187
01:07:04,380 --> 01:07:06,490
And they'd honed the thing live.

1188
01:07:06,490 --> 01:07:07,850
And this is their second record.

1189
01:07:07,850 --> 01:07:10,780
They've been a group for three years.

1190
01:07:11,340 --> 01:07:12,730
They're very young too.

1191
01:07:12,790 --> 01:07:19,796
So there's something really astounding in
their ability to To, one, find something

1192
01:07:19,796 --> 01:07:25,146
really cohesive, and two, not be taken
advantage of and turned into something

1193
01:07:25,146 --> 01:07:29,763
they didn't want to be by having all
of that daylight between themselves.

1194
01:07:30,130 --> 01:07:31,050
Kind of blows my mind.

1195
01:07:31,590 --> 01:07:35,240
Cliff: It was helpful to me to think
about as kind of supporting thought

1196
01:07:35,260 --> 01:07:39,930
or evidence for this idea of women
containing multitudes and them being

1197
01:07:39,930 --> 01:07:47,507
these three mixes of a Venn diagram of
crazy, sexy, cool, and that whole concept.

1198
01:07:47,874 --> 01:07:52,234
They had just on the previous
record, which I will not say

1199
01:07:52,234 --> 01:07:53,644
out loud again, you're welcome.

1200
01:07:54,134 --> 01:07:57,024
Um, coming out of that record was
like, you know, Ain't Too Proud to

1201
01:07:57,024 --> 01:08:05,388
Bag was on there and they had already
created An interesting moment out of

1202
01:08:06,108 --> 01:08:11,765
the forthrightness of what they were
discussing and You know speaking of

1203
01:08:11,765 --> 01:08:18,366
surprises It was really enlightening
to go back and in listening to the

1204
01:08:18,366 --> 01:08:23,643
interviews, especially Here again in
real time what the AIDS crisis wrought.

1205
01:08:24,163 --> 01:08:29,436
Oh, yeah and how I Again, once again, uh,
uh, uh, likely a factor of our literal

1206
01:08:29,436 --> 01:08:32,976
time and space in relationship to the
cultural moment that this was happening.

1207
01:08:33,626 --> 01:08:37,379
We were probably too young to pick
up at that time, they were being

1208
01:08:37,429 --> 01:08:43,394
very, very direct about like,
hey, Put on a condom, it's unsafe.

1209
01:08:43,634 --> 01:08:49,424
And like the whole ain't too proud to
beg thing was them already experiencing

1210
01:08:49,434 --> 01:08:55,714
a bit of criticism about being forthright
as females, just literally in a song

1211
01:08:55,774 --> 01:09:00,631
about saying, it's nothing wrong with
asking for what you want, it's not really

1212
01:09:00,631 --> 01:09:07,068
complicated, but it's what a snapshot
in time because Reading about how

1213
01:09:07,068 --> 01:09:11,508
people responded to that song and then
looking at them in the video was like,

1214
01:09:11,588 --> 01:09:13,108
so are we talking about the same thing?

1215
01:09:13,638 --> 01:09:15,778
You guys are upset about this video?

1216
01:09:15,778 --> 01:09:21,188
They're in like Arsenio
Hall looking outfits, right?

1217
01:09:21,368 --> 01:09:23,858
With like the cool like jester
hats and like, they look

1218
01:09:23,858 --> 01:09:26,448
quintessentially early 90s.

1219
01:09:26,448 --> 01:09:26,648
But.

1220
01:09:26,908 --> 01:09:31,148
In my modern brain, um, nothing about this
even begins, this could be a children's

1221
01:09:31,148 --> 01:09:38,075
program, like this doesn't even begin to
touch the level of explicit sexuality that

1222
01:09:38,075 --> 01:09:40,385
we would later, you know, be totally fine

1223
01:09:40,645 --> 01:09:41,125
Kyle: to absorb.

1224
01:09:41,125 --> 01:09:43,795
And I would borderline use
it to have the sex talk with

1225
01:09:43,795 --> 01:09:46,155
Cliff: my kid.

1226
01:09:47,515 --> 01:09:50,985
And now to be fair, you know,
that, that lasted one album, red

1227
01:09:50,985 --> 01:09:52,745
light district cause on this album.

1228
01:09:52,765 --> 01:09:56,025
And so was the music
video that came from it.

1229
01:09:57,167 --> 01:10:01,667
it's not so much whether one was right or
wrong, but more to just say, like, they

1230
01:10:01,667 --> 01:10:06,297
already had some momentum in terms of,
like, they weren't just trying to prove a

1231
01:10:06,297 --> 01:10:10,207
new point, they were trying to prove more
of a point that they were already on track

1232
01:10:10,497 --> 01:10:16,587
to do and show culturally, especially,
with not just generic female empowerment,

1233
01:10:16,587 --> 01:10:18,087
but, like, literal female empowerment.

1234
01:10:18,507 --> 01:10:20,217
Personal empowerment.

1235
01:10:20,267 --> 01:10:24,637
Yeah, you can be whoever you want
to be you can exist However, you

1236
01:10:24,637 --> 01:10:29,557
want to exist with other people
you should protect yourself From

1237
01:10:29,567 --> 01:10:31,267
bad things that can happen to you.

1238
01:10:31,417 --> 01:10:34,367
You should make this choice,
you know another thing.

1239
01:10:34,367 --> 01:10:39,202
We'll come back to you I mean that They
were helping pioneer and drive some

1240
01:10:39,202 --> 01:10:44,469
of that conversation forward in the
cultures that they were a part of, but way

1241
01:10:44,469 --> 01:10:45,989
Kyle: before it was cool or safer.

1242
01:10:45,989 --> 01:10:46,569
Okay,

1243
01:10:46,599 --> 01:10:47,259
Cliff: exactly.

1244
01:10:47,329 --> 01:10:53,319
But even on this record on that three
stacks verse, he calmly drops a safe sex,

1245
01:10:53,349 --> 01:11:01,646
little public PSA type just realizing
it in the moment that no, we, Nowadays,

1246
01:11:01,646 --> 01:11:06,696
we might feel like we've moved past what
they were in the middle of in that moment.

1247
01:11:07,046 --> 01:11:13,356
And it is still powerful to me to see
people using music as a vehicle to

1248
01:11:13,356 --> 01:11:16,771
say, You, your body, is important.

1249
01:11:17,211 --> 01:11:18,341
You have a choice.

1250
01:11:18,471 --> 01:11:23,521
You should, even inside of hip hop,
even in the 90s, which would be

1251
01:11:23,541 --> 01:11:28,961
the same genre of music in the same
time, that would get all people up in

1252
01:11:28,971 --> 01:11:33,941
arms about it being violent and, uh,
poor influence and everything else.

1253
01:11:33,951 --> 01:11:35,731
Here they are, plain as day.

1254
01:11:36,021 --> 01:11:37,731
Just speaking directly to you.

1255
01:11:38,101 --> 01:11:38,441
Hi.

1256
01:11:38,451 --> 01:11:44,311
Yeah, we're we're reinventing the
combination of r& b and hip hop and also

1257
01:11:44,678 --> 01:11:51,848
Put on a rubber dude, like oh, okay Like I
it just it really reinvigorated how much I

1258
01:11:51,848 --> 01:11:56,858
appreciate when artists give a fuck about
what they're doing Yeah, and commit to it.

1259
01:11:56,858 --> 01:12:01,943
Yeah, totally Even beyond just the, I
want the music itself to sound cool.

1260
01:12:02,543 --> 01:12:06,433
No, I am taking responsibility
for my position as a human being.

1261
01:12:06,433 --> 01:12:07,673
Who's in front of other people.

1262
01:12:08,103 --> 01:12:09,983
I'm going to save some
lives while I'm doing it.

1263
01:12:10,673 --> 01:12:11,013
Man,

1264
01:12:11,463 --> 01:12:14,403
Kyle: They took seriously the
responsibility of like, I want you to

1265
01:12:14,403 --> 01:12:19,503
see if you look like us we want you
to see the best version of yourself in

1266
01:12:19,593 --> 01:12:23,373
what we are doing or new possibilities,
you know, something you hadn't

1267
01:12:23,373 --> 01:12:25,183
considered before I also want to.

1268
01:12:25,304 --> 01:12:27,964
inner two quotes into the
congressional record that support

1269
01:12:28,364 --> 01:12:32,311
what you say like Clover Hope
in the Pitchfork Review totally

1270
01:12:32,311 --> 01:12:34,061
reinforced exactly what you just said.

1271
01:12:34,491 --> 01:12:37,841
She said, The album's songs
emphasize not just sex but

1272
01:12:37,841 --> 01:12:39,681
pleasure in all its many forms.

1273
01:12:40,011 --> 01:12:43,671
It's a liberating, multifaceted
view that suggests sexy doesn't have

1274
01:12:43,671 --> 01:12:46,301
to be raunchy or explicit alone.

1275
01:12:46,561 --> 01:12:51,261
It can manifest itself in the movement
of a serpentine saxophone, whispers

1276
01:12:51,271 --> 01:12:55,701
simply, Yes, it's me again, at the
beginning of a creep like it's foreplay.

1277
01:12:56,004 --> 01:13:01,814
So not just Raunchy or Explicit alone,
that's not to say it can't be but I do

1278
01:13:01,814 --> 01:13:06,444
think that by contrast, you listen to
Trina or you listen to Megan Thee Stallion

1279
01:13:06,474 --> 01:13:12,507
or Cardi B now, this walk so they could
fly, they would never do that, but I think

1280
01:13:12,507 --> 01:13:14,752
they would also just say like, Great.

1281
01:13:15,119 --> 01:13:15,849
You go girl.

1282
01:13:15,849 --> 01:13:16,689
That's not for me.

1283
01:13:17,129 --> 01:13:21,736
And in that regard, Chili said
we were more than R and B.

1284
01:13:21,766 --> 01:13:23,356
We were hip hop and pop as well.

1285
01:13:23,596 --> 01:13:24,886
As far as R and B is concerned.

1286
01:13:24,886 --> 01:13:27,856
Now, I feel what's missing
is the lyrical content.

1287
01:13:28,186 --> 01:13:31,036
You have people that are singing,
but it's missing the stories.

1288
01:13:31,426 --> 01:13:34,686
When I think of Jodeci's albums,
like forever, my lady, we don't

1289
01:13:34,686 --> 01:13:35,876
have records like that anymore.

1290
01:13:35,896 --> 01:13:37,846
I don't know what the date of this was.

1291
01:13:38,276 --> 01:13:41,566
And boys to men songs like end
of the road or bended knee, like

1292
01:13:41,576 --> 01:13:45,176
really songs that people want
to hear at their wedding songs.

1293
01:13:45,176 --> 01:13:46,746
It could be you and your booze record.

1294
01:13:47,156 --> 01:13:48,896
Now you're just talking
about beating it up.

1295
01:13:49,226 --> 01:13:50,696
What the hell are you
supposed to be beating up?

1296
01:13:50,736 --> 01:13:54,426
I know you're not talking about my vagina
because now you're not going to get it.

1297
01:13:54,856 --> 01:13:56,186
Show parentheses chuckles.

1298
01:13:56,386 --> 01:13:58,966
There's no more foreplay,
no more courting, no dating.

1299
01:13:59,006 --> 01:14:00,126
It's straight to the bed.

1300
01:14:00,493 --> 01:14:01,103
So like.

1301
01:14:01,758 --> 01:14:02,238
Man, I really

1302
01:14:02,238 --> 01:14:02,508
Cliff: enjoyed

1303
01:14:02,528 --> 01:14:02,668
Kyle: that.

1304
01:14:02,668 --> 01:14:06,538
That's a pretty, that's a
pretty rich thing to say.

1305
01:14:06,558 --> 01:14:06,778
Yeah.

1306
01:14:06,788 --> 01:14:12,735
When red light special gets it right up
to the line, but Your honor speaks to

1307
01:14:12,755 --> 01:14:17,565
precision, and I really like when I'm
thinking about bands and artists thinking

1308
01:14:17,565 --> 01:14:22,415
about the conversations they had about the
do's and don'ts, you know, the core values

1309
01:14:22,415 --> 01:14:25,155
or whatever of this artistic project.

1310
01:14:25,465 --> 01:14:31,502
And, Few, if any artists I can point to
and say, Oh, they had those conversations.

1311
01:14:31,502 --> 01:14:32,862
Like they thought about that shit.

1312
01:14:33,142 --> 01:14:38,132
I think about like Mastodon having the
same logo, uh, the same sort of like

1313
01:14:38,132 --> 01:14:40,342
font and aesthetic on every album.

1314
01:14:40,712 --> 01:14:43,542
And they had to make that choice
early when they were a totally

1315
01:14:43,542 --> 01:14:45,222
different band than they are now.

1316
01:14:45,582 --> 01:14:50,062
But it's created a world to live
inside as a fan of that band.

1317
01:14:50,332 --> 01:14:53,772
And you kind of have that with
the choices TLC is made here too.

1318
01:14:54,162 --> 01:14:57,272
Which is like, that inspires
me so much as a creative.

1319
01:14:57,639 --> 01:14:59,279
Cliff: That's a lot of
inspiration here for sure.

1320
01:14:59,833 --> 01:15:02,523
Sorry, I'm just playing back,
um, the quote that you just said.

1321
01:15:04,053 --> 01:15:05,353
I'm just really enjoying that.

1322
01:15:06,083 --> 01:15:10,920
But no, great quote and great
to be aligned and see that.

1323
01:15:12,410 --> 01:15:17,240
It doesn't matter if an artist
hits the bullseye in your, the

1324
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:19,280
non artist's, personal opinion.

1325
01:15:19,860 --> 01:15:23,100
But it's helpful when you can go,
But I know what you're shooting at.

1326
01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:25,900
I can see that target and
that makes sense to me.

1327
01:15:26,363 --> 01:15:28,663
you can align yourself to the
vision of that sort of thing.

1328
01:15:29,153 --> 01:15:30,433
Uh, and it can pump you up.

1329
01:15:30,753 --> 01:15:33,733
Kyle: One more chilly quote, speaking
of knowing what you're shooting at.

1330
01:15:34,578 --> 01:15:34,758
Does they

1331
01:15:34,758 --> 01:15:35,898
Cliff: contain the word vagina?

1332
01:15:35,958 --> 01:15:37,518
Kyle: It doesn't, sorry.

1333
01:15:37,578 --> 01:15:37,908
Prettier.

1334
01:15:37,938 --> 01:15:40,493
I can like say it at random in the
middle of the sentence, but it won't,

1335
01:15:40,493 --> 01:15:42,438
please don't, it won't make sense
that this is the end of my value.

1336
01:15:42,438 --> 01:15:42,648
Yeah.

1337
01:15:42,648 --> 01:15:42,828
Yeah.

1338
01:15:43,878 --> 01:15:48,558
, this is their sophomore album and there's
no sophomore slump anywhere in sight.

1339
01:15:48,978 --> 01:15:52,488
And they also knew that was going
to happen because they were so, they

1340
01:15:52,488 --> 01:15:57,148
had such a sureness about what they
had decided, the choices they'd made.

1341
01:15:57,473 --> 01:15:58,403
And how it had landed.

1342
01:15:59,543 --> 01:16:01,433
Chili said, making the
album was a lot of fun.

1343
01:16:01,443 --> 01:16:03,233
We didn't feel the pressure
of the second album.

1344
01:16:03,243 --> 01:16:03,663
Jinx.

1345
01:16:03,683 --> 01:16:06,633
We were just excited to be in the
studio coming up with new material.

1346
01:16:06,673 --> 01:16:10,093
And I remember when we were done,
a guy at Arista records said, it's

1347
01:16:10,093 --> 01:16:12,703
a great album and you guys will
probably sell a couple of million.

1348
01:16:12,723 --> 01:16:14,673
We were like a couple of million, bitch.

1349
01:16:14,673 --> 01:16:15,973
We're going to sell 5 million.

1350
01:16:15,973 --> 01:16:17,453
At least she didn't say bitch.

1351
01:16:17,453 --> 01:16:19,143
I inserted that, but I, I hear it.

1352
01:16:19,653 --> 01:16:21,753
I hear the certainty underpinning.

1353
01:16:22,612 --> 01:16:24,682
But we weren't looking at it
like we think we're great.

1354
01:16:24,712 --> 01:16:26,012
We just knew it was special.

1355
01:16:26,012 --> 01:16:29,012
It was one of those albums where
you didn't want to skip to the next

1356
01:16:29,012 --> 01:16:33,182
song, you know, skits notwithstanding
cliff clip would say, uh, it's

1357
01:16:33,182 --> 01:16:35,022
rare to have a project like that.

1358
01:16:35,502 --> 01:16:39,979
And they knew like they had the
prescience ahead of the album.

1359
01:16:40,412 --> 01:16:45,389
there's almost no artist
that knows ahead of it.

1360
01:16:45,389 --> 01:16:49,369
Like this is going to be, you
can say, I hope, I think, These

1361
01:16:49,369 --> 01:16:51,009
songs feel like they have a magic.

1362
01:16:51,119 --> 01:16:53,899
Cliff: Last person to take a swing
at that was Katy fucking Perry.

1363
01:16:54,239 --> 01:16:56,859
So let's see how that
played out for her in 2024.

1364
01:16:56,859 --> 01:16:57,129
Huh?

1365
01:16:57,819 --> 01:16:58,979
You guys are gonna love this.

1366
01:16:59,009 --> 01:17:00,169
Oh, you don't

1367
01:17:00,169 --> 01:17:02,849
Kyle: women aren't you glad to be alive?

1368
01:17:03,239 --> 01:17:06,049
Uh, and then she immediately
did the Tommy Wiseau.

1369
01:17:06,049 --> 01:17:14,469
No, it was parody Thank you all for coming
to my comedy movie Katy Perry's the room

1370
01:17:14,836 --> 01:17:15,946
Cliff: she deserved all of that.

1371
01:17:16,366 --> 01:17:21,251
So now i'm gonna give an
Unusually direct prompt to you.

1372
01:17:21,691 --> 01:17:26,078
I would love for you to just
take me through What is most

1373
01:17:26,108 --> 01:17:28,378
interesting about the music here?

1374
01:17:28,618 --> 01:17:32,868
I can tell you some things like we've
already kind of hinted at about like It

1375
01:17:32,868 --> 01:17:37,028
inspired me to think about other things
but like I feel like you've really drawn

1376
01:17:37,028 --> 01:17:42,648
out a lot of Particular insights, whether
it's samples, things to notice, whatever.

1377
01:17:42,918 --> 01:17:45,588
And this is always your wheelhouse
anyway, and I'd just love for you

1378
01:17:45,588 --> 01:17:47,328
to just crank on this for a minute.

1379
01:17:48,398 --> 01:17:48,628
Kyle: Yeah.

1380
01:17:48,679 --> 01:17:49,599
real quick speed round.

1381
01:17:49,676 --> 01:17:51,286
you mentioned samples.

1382
01:17:51,376 --> 01:17:54,516
There's not so much of that, maybe
with the exception of the slick

1383
01:17:54,516 --> 01:17:57,921
Rick bit at the beginning of creep
as there is like interpretation.

1384
01:17:57,921 --> 01:18:04,281
I got that luxury guy and his
podcast interpolation in my head.

1385
01:18:04,737 --> 01:18:08,317
shout out to our buddy, John Asante, who
works as a producer on that podcast now.

1386
01:18:08,847 --> 01:18:09,297
Amazing.

1387
01:18:09,297 --> 01:18:09,727
What a guy.

1388
01:18:10,067 --> 01:18:12,097
So there's the OJ's interpolation.

1389
01:18:12,097 --> 01:18:12,947
There's Mr.

1390
01:18:12,947 --> 01:18:14,727
Big stuff interpolated on switch.

1391
01:18:14,997 --> 01:18:18,087
Fife, as we mentioned,
interpolates himself on the intro.

1392
01:18:18,697 --> 01:18:21,097
It's a really cool
anthropological document.

1393
01:18:21,517 --> 01:18:24,917
I would include the Prince cover in there.

1394
01:18:25,418 --> 01:18:31,538
that like it's so well executed and
adds so much to the record that it is

1395
01:18:31,538 --> 01:18:36,748
a great rabbit hole for younger fans of
TLC to then go back to Prince and for

1396
01:18:36,758 --> 01:18:41,408
older fans to know where to put TLC in
the pantheon of classic album makers.

1397
01:18:41,837 --> 01:18:45,237
that song obviously is from sign of
the times, which many would argue is

1398
01:18:45,237 --> 01:18:49,337
like even more than purple rain, the
definitive Prince studio document.

1399
01:18:49,989 --> 01:18:52,079
a few other moments
worth calling out creep.

1400
01:18:52,239 --> 01:18:56,594
Is one of the coolest fucking
songs Of all time full stop.

1401
01:18:56,734 --> 01:19:01,074
I would argue with anyone in any
bar in any city on planet earth

1402
01:19:01,134 --> 01:19:03,637
about that They absolutely nail it.

1403
01:19:03,657 --> 01:19:06,297
Vibe, structure, sonics, message.

1404
01:19:06,457 --> 01:19:11,257
It is iconic from the very first horns
And I just want to mention that the

1405
01:19:11,257 --> 01:19:15,887
90s gave us two creeps both on the
same level So it's like choose your

1406
01:19:15,887 --> 01:19:18,168
fighter, which creep is your horoscope?

1407
01:19:18,817 --> 01:19:21,147
Absolutely incredible song.

1408
01:19:21,257 --> 01:19:24,357
Put it on the golden record
and shoot it into space.

1409
01:19:24,397 --> 01:19:26,057
Every alien ever should hear it.

1410
01:19:26,467 --> 01:19:28,837
Vocals are such an
underrated aspect of this.

1411
01:19:28,837 --> 01:19:31,687
They talk about their different
boy, like, you know, chilly, sultry

1412
01:19:31,697 --> 01:19:38,547
voice, T Boz's cigarette smoke
vocals, and Lisa's rap plus whatever.

1413
01:19:38,927 --> 01:19:41,917
But like you can use waterfalls
as really the sort of like

1414
01:19:41,957 --> 01:19:44,797
golden, North star or whatever.

1415
01:19:44,997 --> 01:19:48,407
Cliff: How nice for us to be able
to use like the big song off of it

1416
01:19:48,427 --> 01:19:50,337
as the actual kind of Rosetta stone.

1417
01:19:50,337 --> 01:19:53,787
If we want to, for the record, it
doesn't usually work out that way.

1418
01:19:53,957 --> 01:19:54,587
It's nice here.

1419
01:19:54,707 --> 01:19:59,417
Kyle: Organized noise, top flight,
like heavy message material.

1420
01:19:59,877 --> 01:20:03,397
They talk about HIV, but they
do the three letters thing.

1421
01:20:03,597 --> 01:20:08,414
It's like no advertiser has ever come up
with an ad campaign that smart with like

1422
01:20:08,804 --> 01:20:13,014
the implication Dennis Reynolds voice
Yeah, I mean that, that's a brilliant

1423
01:20:13,374 --> 01:20:15,484
pop song, a smart people's pop song.

1424
01:20:16,014 --> 01:20:18,774
They told the BBC it's the first
time they felt like they cracked

1425
01:20:18,774 --> 01:20:20,384
the code of how their voices mesh.

1426
01:20:20,724 --> 01:20:25,284
Um, but you can also, in Red Light
Special the chorus is really syrupy.

1427
01:20:25,284 --> 01:20:28,423
It's a very doo wop y style blending.

1428
01:20:28,550 --> 01:20:33,553
and I like try to put the video
out of my mind a little bit.

1429
01:20:33,993 --> 01:20:38,923
And if you heard it out of that
context, you can see them four tops

1430
01:20:38,923 --> 01:20:44,523
or Manhattan style snapping and, and
spinning at their mics and then coming

1431
01:20:44,523 --> 01:20:46,143
together to harmonize on the one mic.

1432
01:20:46,663 --> 01:20:47,453
For the chorus,

1433
01:20:47,820 --> 01:20:48,300
Cliff: um,

1434
01:20:48,310 --> 01:20:48,330
Kyle: I'm

1435
01:20:48,340 --> 01:20:50,050
Cliff: thinking about how that
would have been an awesome

1436
01:20:50,090 --> 01:20:51,990
Kyle: alternate music video, right?

1437
01:20:52,460 --> 01:20:57,310
They get at it a little and like creep
they recorded three different videos

1438
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:01,570
four So there was an iterativeness
to their process and they knew

1439
01:21:01,570 --> 01:21:03,190
when they hadn't nailed it yet.

1440
01:21:03,510 --> 01:21:07,360
They talk about that I think in
the VH1 video that you sent me.

1441
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:08,760
It was a direct interview with them.

1442
01:21:08,820 --> 01:21:09,980
Like, Oh, that's interesting.

1443
01:21:09,990 --> 01:21:11,440
That speaks to their headspace.

1444
01:21:12,060 --> 01:21:16,230
I would never recommend that you
waste 20 gallons of water to get, do

1445
01:21:16,230 --> 01:21:21,420
an AI version of red light special
in the style of the Manhattans.

1446
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:27,980
Um, but you could easily picture
like it would just, it would crush

1447
01:21:28,030 --> 01:21:30,330
as of an OG Philly soul song.

1448
01:21:30,796 --> 01:21:33,906
And then my personal favorite
example vocally is in Take Our

1449
01:21:33,906 --> 01:21:37,526
Time, there's a chorus harmony.

1450
01:21:37,896 --> 01:21:40,626
That's really tight and delightful.

1451
01:21:40,916 --> 01:21:42,726
And then there's Chili's runs around it.

1452
01:21:42,736 --> 01:21:46,526
So at around a minute 25, there's
a low one and then a high one.

1453
01:21:47,136 --> 01:21:52,636
And the tempo of that song mixed with the
serpeness of the harmonies, like stretches

1454
01:21:52,636 --> 01:21:58,185
the space time continuum musically so much
that it borders on psychedelic, It's kind

1455
01:21:58,185 --> 01:22:02,955
of a masterclass and it's it's very like
everything on the record is not Trying

1456
01:22:02,955 --> 01:22:05,495
too hard the rough edges and the whatever.

1457
01:22:05,905 --> 01:22:10,605
So there's a handful of moments like
the vocals are so Underrated not under

1458
01:22:10,605 --> 01:22:15,991
delivered like they almost strike me as
occasionally a little out of tune but

1459
01:22:15,991 --> 01:22:21,243
they're really good, it's just really real
and authentic and good then the, the last

1460
01:22:21,243 --> 01:22:24,520
thing that I'll say is let's do it again.

1461
01:22:24,887 --> 01:22:28,767
Would also, I mentioned, I want you
earlier with the, after the dance

1462
01:22:29,377 --> 01:22:30,817
instrumental on the interlude.

1463
01:22:31,357 --> 01:22:32,147
Let's do it again.

1464
01:22:32,147 --> 01:22:36,404
I think if you stripped back the hip
hopiness of the beat programming, let's

1465
01:22:36,404 --> 01:22:37,774
do it again with sound like it fits on.

1466
01:22:37,774 --> 01:22:38,304
I want you.

1467
01:22:38,304 --> 01:22:42,194
And, and really to me, the whole
B side of the record where it is

1468
01:22:42,194 --> 01:22:44,794
like more overtly sexy feels like.

1469
01:22:45,244 --> 01:22:45,824
I want you.

1470
01:22:45,854 --> 01:22:46,324
100%.

1471
01:22:46,364 --> 01:22:47,204
For the 90s.

1472
01:22:47,244 --> 01:22:51,959
And I've never seen anybody make that
connection before, but it's so It's so

1473
01:22:51,959 --> 01:22:59,259
there and similarly, they're both getting
at dimensionality of like adult desire

1474
01:22:59,519 --> 01:23:02,519
and how it's real and good and meaningful.

1475
01:23:02,869 --> 01:23:05,829
And we shouldn't be ashamed
of the dimensions of it.

1476
01:23:05,899 --> 01:23:10,739
And they're like role modeling, but it's
okay to feel the feelings that you do.

1477
01:23:10,739 --> 01:23:14,079
And actually like, that's a beautiful
way to connect and express yourself.

1478
01:23:14,301 --> 01:23:16,306
so yes, it's a, yeah.

1479
01:23:16,796 --> 01:23:20,096
It's a decade defining and genre
busting record, but it's also like

1480
01:23:20,096 --> 01:23:22,346
an all time soul document too.

1481
01:23:22,726 --> 01:23:25,116
That's really like buried in the details.

1482
01:23:25,606 --> 01:23:27,506
But I think you can make some
of those other connections.

1483
01:23:27,795 --> 01:23:33,453
the last little thing is music videos
actually really help, and we hit a dearth.

1484
01:23:34,033 --> 01:23:38,443
Kind of after this period and end of
the millennium and we're only just now

1485
01:23:38,463 --> 01:23:41,133
coming back to investment in the art form.

1486
01:23:41,373 --> 01:23:44,893
now, thanks to 10 or 15 years of research.

1487
01:23:45,243 --> 01:23:45,783
YouTube.

1488
01:23:46,253 --> 01:23:49,793
But like, part of the reason these
singles were as successful as they

1489
01:23:49,793 --> 01:23:55,183
were was they had really iconic music
videos on this record and on Fan Mail.

1490
01:23:55,613 --> 01:24:01,923
Waterfalls, The where they turn into
Terminator liquid looks cheesy now,

1491
01:24:01,943 --> 01:24:04,510
but it was like, truly revolutionary.

1492
01:24:04,900 --> 01:24:09,517
And it also tells the story that
they're trying to tell which is very,

1493
01:24:09,557 --> 01:24:14,527
to me, the, like, the way that people
fade out in that video is akin to last

1494
01:24:14,527 --> 01:24:18,707
episode we were talking about the fade
out of the voice of the character in

1495
01:24:18,707 --> 01:24:20,337
Sing About Me, I'm Dying of Thirst.

1496
01:24:21,047 --> 01:24:23,397
So they're kind of doing the
same thing, but picture of

1497
01:24:23,397 --> 01:24:25,157
Sing I'm Dying of Thirst was.

1498
01:24:25,807 --> 01:24:31,437
the biggest song of the year with
that heaviness of subject matter, and

1499
01:24:31,437 --> 01:24:36,304
that, is a feather in the cap of TLC's
artistic brilliance and transcendence.

1500
01:24:37,334 --> 01:24:37,774
Cliff: Amazing.

1501
01:24:38,504 --> 01:24:39,494
Kyle: And the album cover!

1502
01:24:39,994 --> 01:24:44,684
There was a Vibe magazine cover
where they dressed as firemen L O L.

1503
01:24:44,874 --> 01:24:45,294
Right.

1504
01:24:45,434 --> 01:24:50,504
Some A& R fuck thought they were being
clever and, and they just rolled with

1505
01:24:50,504 --> 01:24:53,134
it because they thought the outfits
looked dope and they were right.

1506
01:24:53,134 --> 01:24:53,674
I mean, yeah.

1507
01:24:54,747 --> 01:24:58,337
and then the story overly centered
on the trauma and whatever, but

1508
01:24:58,357 --> 01:24:59,737
wound up making some good points.

1509
01:24:59,737 --> 01:25:01,627
But also the album cover.

1510
01:25:02,052 --> 01:25:07,755
Art directed by Chris Stern, who was kind
of, he, he wound up doing a lot of iconic

1511
01:25:07,755 --> 01:25:14,045
stuff for for Arista Artist and for I
pull at my collar nervously, bad boy, um,

1512
01:25:14,805 --> 01:25:18,792
the cover where their faces are read is
like, I don't think it's hyperbolic to

1513
01:25:18,792 --> 01:25:25,352
say it's like Abbey Road level, iconic,
nevermind level, iconic, replicated

1514
01:25:25,772 --> 01:25:32,982
for Halloweens and Instagram homages
and whatever, uh, at scale 30 years on.

1515
01:25:33,002 --> 01:25:34,459
So like, every bit of it.

1516
01:25:34,469 --> 01:25:36,659
And, and their fashion too.

1517
01:25:36,709 --> 01:25:39,673
They use fashion, to emphasize their.

1518
01:25:40,213 --> 01:25:43,583
Like it was an art form in and of
itself in their videos and their live

1519
01:25:43,583 --> 01:25:49,204
performances, but also to your point
about the condoms It was like it was their

1520
01:25:49,204 --> 01:25:51,634
way of being woke in a cheeky way Like

1521
01:25:51,664 --> 01:25:52,154
Cliff: yeah, they

1522
01:25:52,154 --> 01:25:56,474
Kyle: make me think of Viagra boys in
the way that they're subversive with

1523
01:25:56,474 --> 01:26:00,964
making really good deeply earnest
points About the ills of the human

1524
01:26:00,964 --> 01:26:04,504
condition and I can't believe that
I'm getting to compare those two.

1525
01:26:04,524 --> 01:26:11,880
No totally but every detail adds to
the richness of the TLC experience.

1526
01:26:12,188 --> 01:26:15,958
Cliff: I'll just add to that point because
it was also one that came up for me.

1527
01:26:16,490 --> 01:26:22,410
if you, listener, if you feel like there
hasn't been a weird tonal shift in the

1528
01:26:22,410 --> 01:26:28,444
concept of pointing at someone and calling
them woke in a negative way, just consider

1529
01:26:28,454 --> 01:26:32,829
what the equivalent of that would have
been In response to what's being said

1530
01:26:32,959 --> 01:26:38,116
on this record and in these moments of
let's protect ourselves from disease.

1531
01:26:38,386 --> 01:26:40,486
Let's have a good time
and enjoy ourselves.

1532
01:26:40,816 --> 01:26:42,126
Here's the thing you need to do.

1533
01:26:42,496 --> 01:26:46,643
Imagine pointing at these people and
being like, you know what I'm going to do?

1534
01:26:47,323 --> 01:26:48,553
I'm not going to wear one.

1535
01:26:49,973 --> 01:26:50,798
Because that's a stupid idea.

1536
01:26:50,798 --> 01:26:52,733
And I'm going to dox your home address.

1537
01:26:55,003 --> 01:26:56,250
Like, okay.

1538
01:26:56,905 --> 01:26:57,805
Anyway, sorry.

1539
01:26:58,265 --> 01:26:59,215
Now I'm picturing

1540
01:26:59,215 --> 01:27:04,575
Kyle: like the vent staples mom
reading the lyric, but it's like a trad

1541
01:27:04,585 --> 01:27:09,345
wife on Tik TOK being like, they're
saying to use condoms, so we can't

1542
01:27:09,345 --> 01:27:13,285
do our God given thing to make babies

1543
01:27:13,285 --> 01:27:15,325
Cliff: to

1544
01:27:19,119 --> 01:27:19,349
I don't know.

1545
01:27:19,349 --> 01:27:19,909
It was pretty good.

1546
01:27:19,919 --> 01:27:20,955
You should get on Tik TOK.

1547
01:27:20,955 --> 01:27:21,304
I liked it.

1548
01:27:21,628 --> 01:27:23,298
Thanks for that quick digression.

1549
01:27:23,428 --> 01:27:24,738
It's always worth pointing that out.

1550
01:27:24,748 --> 01:27:28,148
And if we can pull any of you
out of the weird ether and back

1551
01:27:28,148 --> 01:27:31,458
into normal lines of thinking and
appreciating other people, Send this

1552
01:27:31,458 --> 01:27:32,688
Kyle: episode to your dad.

1553
01:27:34,668 --> 01:27:36,548
Cliff: We'll get him with
all the That'll  teach

1554
01:27:36,548 --> 01:27:36,778
Kyle: him.

1555
01:27:37,998 --> 01:27:40,708
Cliff: Dad, listen to this
record about, uh, Black women.

1556
01:27:42,979 --> 01:27:47,119
So as we toss that haphazardly to
the side quickly, I'd love to just

1557
01:27:47,119 --> 01:27:51,739
mention, I have really peppered
the episode with this so far.

1558
01:27:52,029 --> 01:27:57,899
But just a couple of quick aspects of
the kind of active listening session

1559
01:27:57,899 --> 01:28:01,989
that I went on which for anyone
that's not connecting with this in

1560
01:28:01,989 --> 01:28:05,076
the moment, just like if you're the
type of person who ever gets, like,

1561
01:28:05,166 --> 01:28:09,716
very, very interested in a thing for
periods of time, this is immediately

1562
01:28:09,716 --> 01:28:11,056
gonna kind of make sense to you.

1563
01:28:11,566 --> 01:28:15,976
If you're not, just try to imagine
that, you know, you're watching a TV

1564
01:28:15,976 --> 01:28:19,566
show, a movie, or something like that,
and instead of giving a shit about the

1565
01:28:19,566 --> 01:28:24,431
movie, Everything the movie makes you
think about just gonna look up on your

1566
01:28:24,431 --> 01:28:29,111
phone as a way to think about the thing
without having to like put all of your

1567
01:28:29,111 --> 01:28:32,031
attention directly on the piece of art.

1568
01:28:32,041 --> 01:28:32,451
There's a lot of

1569
01:28:32,471 --> 01:28:34,161
Kyle: Martin Scorsese here you say about.

1570
01:28:34,533 --> 01:28:38,941
Cliff: So like one of them would be,
uh, and if there's another big meta

1571
01:28:38,981 --> 01:28:43,236
pulling people out of the, uh, stupid
group collective into something good.

1572
01:28:45,146 --> 01:28:49,516
Amongst a lot of other options this
is a really good way to give you a

1573
01:28:49,516 --> 01:28:56,416
nice heya antidote to what you might
think of outcast as And yeah, I'm

1574
01:28:56,586 --> 01:29:00,486
like, I am talking about thinking
about Outkast through listening

1575
01:29:00,486 --> 01:29:04,756
to a TLC record and appreciating
both of them at the same time.

1576
01:29:04,786 --> 01:29:07,236
Kyle: If that's your window
on Outkast, I'm so sorry.

1577
01:29:07,496 --> 01:29:07,806
What?

1578
01:29:07,896 --> 01:29:12,246
If that's your window on Outkast, if
that's your frame of reference for

1579
01:29:12,246 --> 01:29:15,733
what they mean and what they did,
may God have mercy on your soul.

1580
01:29:15,909 --> 01:29:18,826
Cliff: I feel the same,
but I also don't know.

1581
01:29:18,856 --> 01:29:20,056
Kyle: Can't make a value judgment.

1582
01:29:20,146 --> 01:29:20,186
Well,

1583
01:29:20,746 --> 01:29:27,826
Cliff: I recognize that like, Hey, y'all
was like a, of a level of recognizability

1584
01:29:27,906 --> 01:29:29,716
that is difficult to describe.

1585
01:29:29,756 --> 01:29:30,016
Yeah.

1586
01:29:30,176 --> 01:29:31,546
Kyle: Order of magnitude larger.

1587
01:29:31,646 --> 01:29:34,551
Cliff: And if that is In actual sincerity.

1588
01:29:34,581 --> 01:29:37,131
We are looking directly into
the camera in this moment.

1589
01:29:37,161 --> 01:29:40,901
Okay, if that is sincerely your
entrance to outcasts, we welcome you.

1590
01:29:40,981 --> 01:29:42,971
Okay, that's better
than not caring at all.

1591
01:29:42,981 --> 01:29:43,511
Kyle: Keep going.

1592
01:29:43,581 --> 01:29:48,581
Cliff: Yeah, but but with so much of
what's embedded in outcasts, organized

1593
01:29:48,581 --> 01:29:53,171
noise, goody mob, dungeon family,
everything else that we love so much of.

1594
01:29:53,171 --> 01:29:57,036
I mean, I can literally reach out and
touch a little figurine of, you know,

1595
01:29:57,206 --> 01:30:01,006
Outcast that's sitting right here
on my desk where they're sitting and

1596
01:30:01,016 --> 01:30:02,806
literally two dope boys in a Cadillac.

1597
01:30:03,446 --> 01:30:03,786
Yeah.

1598
01:30:04,126 --> 01:30:04,876
Kyle: Thanks Elena Braves.

1599
01:30:06,556 --> 01:30:08,046
Cliff: I had to hunt
that guy down on eBay.

1600
01:30:09,536 --> 01:30:12,296
you know, outcast was the
first hip hop act on the face.

1601
01:30:12,346 --> 01:30:17,176
So label mates here, as we mentioned
earlier And they're, you know,

1602
01:30:17,266 --> 01:30:20,936
the group Outkast was making their
first appearance on a remix of

1603
01:30:20,946 --> 01:30:22,706
TLC's What About Your Friends.

1604
01:30:23,356 --> 01:30:27,056
And then we mentioned, uh, you know,
a three sax verse at the end of this

1605
01:30:27,056 --> 01:30:30,206
record which also, you know, we, we
mentioned one of the funny moments

1606
01:30:30,206 --> 01:30:34,166
in time uh, another that caught
me that I had never caught before.

1607
01:30:34,166 --> 01:30:36,423
It's like, Oh, he just made
fun of Michael Jackson.

1608
01:30:36,583 --> 01:30:36,913
Oh, shit.

1609
01:30:37,873 --> 01:30:38,553
Oh, okay.

1610
01:30:38,623 --> 01:30:40,973
Called shot real early in your career.

1611
01:30:41,013 --> 01:30:41,763
Fun stuff.

1612
01:30:42,143 --> 01:30:45,193
Calling Michael Jackson a
sellout is definitely a move.

1613
01:30:45,513 --> 01:30:51,060
But whether it is listening for the
funk in the music, whether it is getting

1614
01:30:51,070 --> 01:30:56,230
interested in three sacks and tracing what
Andre 3000 did from that moment on, uh,

1615
01:30:56,230 --> 01:31:01,197
and hopefully winding your way all the way
over to the thing he's doing nowadays, the

1616
01:31:01,427 --> 01:31:03,157
Kyle: red light special, the new blue sun,

1617
01:31:05,967 --> 01:31:07,767
Cliff: we contain multitudes, baby.

1618
01:31:08,127 --> 01:31:08,527
Yeah.

1619
01:31:09,027 --> 01:31:13,327
That is just one of many little
like, okay, this is going

1620
01:31:13,327 --> 01:31:14,297
to be my focus right now.

1621
01:31:14,297 --> 01:31:16,427
I want to learn more and
more and more about this.

1622
01:31:16,437 --> 01:31:17,597
What does this make me think of?

1623
01:31:17,867 --> 01:31:20,647
Let me put on players
ball because the base.

1624
01:31:21,172 --> 01:31:23,102
You know, riff and another
song made me think of this one.

1625
01:31:23,102 --> 01:31:26,352
Now I'm going to listen to players ball
and what album was that on and who else

1626
01:31:26,352 --> 01:31:27,932
was, Oh, and what's happening here.

1627
01:31:27,982 --> 01:31:29,812
And Oh, there's a player's ball reprise.

1628
01:31:30,052 --> 01:31:34,312
And like, okay, now I'm listening to
Southern playlistic, you are going in

1629
01:31:34,312 --> 01:31:39,642
directions that are just making you a
smarter, more interesting person with

1630
01:31:39,642 --> 01:31:44,962
a more full understanding of not just
hip hop, but like the very particular

1631
01:31:44,962 --> 01:31:50,932
form of hip hop that came from part of
this weird country that we love so much.

1632
01:31:51,262 --> 01:31:53,602
And that's just one of the weird little

1633
01:31:53,602 --> 01:31:54,972
Kyle: asides that you could go on.

1634
01:31:54,992 --> 01:31:58,702
Please let Terminal Velocity for That
Rabbit Hole be spodeodydocalicious.

1635
01:31:59,462 --> 01:32:00,052
Cliff: As it should be.

1636
01:32:00,702 --> 01:32:03,752
Speaking of horns, which you
had already mentioned, because

1637
01:32:03,752 --> 01:32:04,742
you're a sucker for those.

1638
01:32:05,512 --> 01:32:08,802
But then another, another example that
could go in a totally different direction.

1639
01:32:08,822 --> 01:32:12,952
Again, these are just like singular
moments that I had listening.

1640
01:32:13,362 --> 01:32:18,582
But the, on intermission lude,
the guitar there, and we're

1641
01:32:18,582 --> 01:32:19,802
going to insert this sample.

1642
01:32:19,962 --> 01:32:22,542
And then if you haven't listened
to it soon, we'll, we will

1643
01:32:22,542 --> 01:32:23,762
listen to it together soon.

1644
01:32:23,786 --> 01:32:27,833
but the guitar on intermission
lude immediately reminded me.

1645
01:32:28,128 --> 01:32:31,708
Of Crown on the Ground by
Sleighbells, which took me in

1646
01:32:31,708 --> 01:32:34,188
the like, Oh, wait a minute.

1647
01:32:34,808 --> 01:32:36,998
Is there Hyperpop buried in here?

1648
01:32:37,698 --> 01:32:41,608
In And first of all, no, no,
generally speaking, those two

1649
01:32:41,608 --> 01:32:42,918
things are kind of too far apart.

1650
01:32:43,018 --> 01:32:47,418
However as is the kind of meta
theme of this podcast, like

1651
01:32:47,598 --> 01:32:49,448
Kyle: the two colors of
the same reversible shirt,

1652
01:32:50,148 --> 01:32:54,785
Cliff: I'm with you, I'm with you because
what I kind of abstracted from there is

1653
01:32:54,785 --> 01:32:58,265
like, okay, we're not going to be able to
draw a direct line, but I'm curious now.

1654
01:32:58,645 --> 01:32:59,275
So.

1655
01:32:59,795 --> 01:33:04,945
What about just bending and blending
different things when new little sub

1656
01:33:04,945 --> 01:33:07,295
genres are being created and spawned off?

1657
01:33:07,485 --> 01:33:12,255
Because Hyperpop becomes sort of like
a intentionally dense concentration

1658
01:33:12,405 --> 01:33:16,765
of things that were, you know,
developed over time and blended into

1659
01:33:16,765 --> 01:33:18,445
one another and mixed with each other.

1660
01:33:18,825 --> 01:33:23,455
And so similarly on CrazySexyCool
they're mixing and blending,

1661
01:33:23,455 --> 01:33:24,835
sounds like we talked about.

1662
01:33:26,180 --> 01:33:31,310
They're mixing genres together and
Without having to say too much about it,

1663
01:33:31,560 --> 01:33:34,490
they're blending traditional gender roles.

1664
01:33:34,510 --> 01:33:39,094
They're, shifting things around and
reorienting them in a bunch of different

1665
01:33:39,094 --> 01:33:43,354
ways to make interesting sounding music
that we hadn't heard before this moment.

1666
01:33:43,924 --> 01:33:47,964
And so similarly, you know, one thing we
like to talk about anyway is, and we've

1667
01:33:47,974 --> 01:33:52,644
talked about here, like kind of going,
Backwards or forwards in time, if you

1668
01:33:52,644 --> 01:33:57,374
want to go backwards, uh, even though
it wouldn't be necessarily backwards too

1669
01:33:57,374 --> 01:34:02,644
much in terms of time, like we talked
about Cocteau Twins recently who in

1670
01:34:02,644 --> 01:34:06,944
their own way were bending and blending
a whole lot of different things all

1671
01:34:06,944 --> 01:34:11,424
together to make an entirely different
sound and in their case, yeah, it's

1672
01:34:11,424 --> 01:34:17,494
sort of more a dense expression of the
genres that they were mashing together.

1673
01:34:17,934 --> 01:34:22,854
But then, uh, in another hand, I tried
to think about, okay, well, If I went

1674
01:34:22,874 --> 01:34:28,964
forward and tried to take what I'm
thinking about here in terms of this,

1675
01:34:29,154 --> 01:34:33,244
literally just this guitar reminded
me of Sleigh Bells, what else am I

1676
01:34:33,244 --> 01:34:35,264
hearing that reminds me of Hyperpop?

1677
01:34:35,714 --> 01:34:39,864
And all of a sudden I could hear anything
from, and this will be a very fun

1678
01:34:39,864 --> 01:34:43,934
collection of four artists that I'm going
to name, I could hear anything from Charli

1679
01:34:43,934 --> 01:34:48,264
XCX to 100 gecs to The Armed To Frontierer

1680
01:34:48,499 --> 01:34:49,039
Kyle: Oh totally.

1681
01:34:49,064 --> 01:34:51,884
Cliff: not to send you too far
down another side, but like, you

1682
01:34:51,884 --> 01:34:55,614
know, Frontier is a band that
effectively tried to introduce

1683
01:34:55,654 --> 01:34:59,134
weird glitch into super heavy music.

1684
01:34:59,504 --> 01:35:02,204
And almost 98 percent of you
who are going to go stream that

1685
01:35:02,204 --> 01:35:03,794
now will not like me for it.

1686
01:35:04,134 --> 01:35:04,814
And that's okay.

1687
01:35:05,064 --> 01:35:09,040
But the point is like The density
wasn't the angle that, that made me

1688
01:35:09,060 --> 01:35:13,824
think about Hyperpop, but instead
the, it's not even subversion.

1689
01:35:13,824 --> 01:35:17,839
It's like, no, we can intentionally take
a bunch of different genres together.

1690
01:35:18,229 --> 01:35:21,469
And then like TLC did here, which we
keep talking about, like they worked with

1691
01:35:21,469 --> 01:35:23,429
just a whole bunch of different people.

1692
01:35:23,749 --> 01:35:27,799
It wasn't an intentionally
singular, singular, cohesive,

1693
01:35:28,239 --> 01:35:29,929
sound approach, anything.

1694
01:35:29,959 --> 01:35:33,219
It was, we can do all of these
things because we're TLC.

1695
01:35:33,639 --> 01:35:35,059
Why the hell wouldn't, shouldn't we?

1696
01:35:35,539 --> 01:35:38,749
We're three people, we're different, we
can do whatever we want together, and

1697
01:35:38,749 --> 01:35:40,499
we'll pursue whatever feels good about it.

1698
01:35:40,866 --> 01:35:45,163
And that definitely feels spiritually
aligned to me, to the type of artist

1699
01:35:45,173 --> 01:35:48,983
that would come later and would do things
like hyperpop, or other just really

1700
01:35:48,983 --> 01:35:54,083
weird forms of music, where basically the
reasoning for it is because we did it.

1701
01:35:54,393 --> 01:35:55,723
And doesn't it sound pretty cool?

1702
01:35:55,743 --> 01:35:56,023
Kyle: Yeah.

1703
01:35:56,213 --> 01:35:56,563
Cliff: Oh,

1704
01:35:56,673 --> 01:35:58,083
yeah, it does, actually.

1705
01:35:58,253 --> 01:36:02,993
Kyle: Fife on the intro that sounds
like the predecessor to the like almost

1706
01:36:02,993 --> 01:36:10,693
industrial ness of No Scrubs reminds
me of the feeling of Charlie XCX's 365,

1707
01:36:10,713 --> 01:36:12,758
where it's like She's doing Yeezus.

1708
01:36:12,808 --> 01:36:14,878
She's doing death grips on this.

1709
01:36:14,938 --> 01:36:15,138
Yep.

1710
01:36:15,168 --> 01:36:20,208
That's Insane, and I love it so
much because it's a sensation.

1711
01:36:20,468 --> 01:36:22,828
I didn't expect and I've never felt before

1712
01:36:22,868 --> 01:36:23,168
Cliff: Yeah,

1713
01:36:23,678 --> 01:36:28,073
Kyle: and it it's like capital
a art in that sense like My wife

1714
01:36:28,073 --> 01:36:34,994
showed me the painter Titus  who is
like reimagining Renaissance art,

1715
01:36:35,562 --> 01:36:37,732
and centering black people in it.

1716
01:36:38,132 --> 01:36:39,672
And there's so much modern art.

1717
01:36:39,682 --> 01:36:44,482
Like we, we went to the Brooklyn museum
this summer and there's all these

1718
01:36:44,482 --> 01:36:48,362
modern expressions where you're like,
I'm seeing a combination of elements

1719
01:36:48,402 --> 01:36:54,242
I have never seen before and never in
a billion years and infinite chances

1720
01:36:54,242 --> 01:36:58,842
could I have arrived at this combination
of and what it's trying to say to me.

1721
01:36:59,142 --> 01:37:05,436
So, I would use Hyperpop as the
wrapper word, container word,

1722
01:37:05,506 --> 01:37:10,606
around recontextualization of
novel elements in a really, really,

1723
01:37:10,606 --> 01:37:13,896
really modern, right now way.

1724
01:37:14,263 --> 01:37:18,773
Done with the quality to give it the
ability to sustain over years and decades.

1725
01:37:18,783 --> 01:37:19,123
Yep.

1726
01:37:19,403 --> 01:37:19,713
Cliff: Yeah.

1727
01:37:20,143 --> 01:37:23,213
I'm so glad you said that, but like,
that's the kind of defining bit of it

1728
01:37:23,223 --> 01:37:27,813
that stood out to me, like in the vein of
hyper pop that we're talking about, those

1729
01:37:27,813 --> 01:37:29,723
songs will always be able to be played.

1730
01:37:29,773 --> 01:37:31,743
They're not timeless specifically.

1731
01:37:31,743 --> 01:37:32,703
They're not timeless songs.

1732
01:37:33,213 --> 01:37:36,313
They are a very specific
product of that moment.

1733
01:37:36,708 --> 01:37:38,798
Because that aligns with
the aesthetic in general

1734
01:37:38,808 --> 01:37:39,968
Kyle: pop is for consumption.

1735
01:37:39,978 --> 01:37:44,408
Hyper pop is for expression
using the consumption mode

1736
01:37:44,418 --> 01:37:46,278
or subverting it or whatever.

1737
01:37:46,888 --> 01:37:47,108
Yeah.

1738
01:37:47,426 --> 01:37:50,156
yeah, you, you stumbled onto
something like inadvertently

1739
01:37:50,156 --> 01:37:51,706
kind of profound for me there.

1740
01:37:52,736 --> 01:37:53,156
Thank you.

1741
01:37:54,446 --> 01:37:54,626
Cliff: Yeah.

1742
01:37:54,626 --> 01:37:55,206
You and your

1743
01:37:55,666 --> 01:37:58,516
Kyle: dumb, stupid fucking
brain got a, got a good one.

1744
01:37:58,516 --> 01:37:59,386
Count the bucket.

1745
01:37:59,976 --> 01:38:00,926
I'm doing my best.

1746
01:38:01,293 --> 01:38:01,983
Cliff: I also.

1747
01:38:02,728 --> 01:38:08,748
On a much simpler note, even though,
that also reminded me that artists in

1748
01:38:08,858 --> 01:38:15,448
that vein of genre, if I can string
that sentence together, have been

1749
01:38:15,448 --> 01:38:20,918
historically known as huge advocates
of The LGBTQ plus communities,

1750
01:38:21,059 --> 01:38:22,569
all the way through those times.

1751
01:38:23,129 --> 01:38:29,129
And that again reminded me there
are so many different forms of

1752
01:38:29,129 --> 01:38:33,799
artistic expression that when
people put good intention into, pay

1753
01:38:33,799 --> 01:38:38,659
attention to the quality of, and they
attempt to do like a coherent thing

1754
01:38:39,009 --> 01:38:41,819
aesthetically, that can actually,

1755
01:38:42,547 --> 01:38:50,147
it can give a more sincere Ironically
to a straightforward message of support

1756
01:38:50,267 --> 01:38:54,787
about a thing About taking care of people
protecting them taking care of one another

1757
01:38:55,147 --> 01:38:59,677
just in the way that like one of the
easiest vibes to catch is like You go

1758
01:38:59,677 --> 01:39:03,867
to almost any actual punk show You're
mostly going to immediately catch the vibe

1759
01:39:03,867 --> 01:39:08,457
of like all right if anyone fucks with
anybody in here Some shit's gonna happen.

1760
01:39:08,457 --> 01:39:11,777
It's gonna be do you understand
and everyone kind of agrees, right?

1761
01:39:12,117 --> 01:39:17,317
And similarly here it, thinking about
those artists that would come afterwards,

1762
01:39:17,317 --> 01:39:23,287
but then TLC, again, like, the aesthetic
wasn't just, I want to be known for

1763
01:39:23,297 --> 01:39:25,257
fashion, and I care about a thing.

1764
01:39:25,557 --> 01:39:28,067
It was a whole package, on purpose.

1765
01:39:28,497 --> 01:39:32,697
I am this person, I, this person,
am telling you this thing now, and

1766
01:39:32,707 --> 01:39:36,517
hopefully you're hearing me, and
seeing me, and feeling supported.

1767
01:39:37,182 --> 01:39:40,732
And encourage because I know that I'm
speaking to you and I know that you're

1768
01:39:40,732 --> 01:39:45,062
looking at me and like I'm dressing this
way on purpose to be cool because I want

1769
01:39:45,062 --> 01:39:48,942
you to think that I'm cool, not because I
need it, but because you'll listen to me.

1770
01:39:48,942 --> 01:39:49,182
Yeah.

1771
01:39:49,562 --> 01:39:50,972
And like, they're maybe we

1772
01:39:50,972 --> 01:39:52,332
Kyle: contain the same multitudes.

1773
01:39:52,382 --> 01:39:52,822
Yeah.

1774
01:39:53,182 --> 01:39:58,072
If that dimension is of interest, I
would recommend somebody go on the

1775
01:39:58,072 --> 01:40:04,692
journey that I have been on for a while
now of finding other Domains other

1776
01:40:04,692 --> 01:40:10,722
worlds where they were doing that like
creating the safety specifically house

1777
01:40:10,722 --> 01:40:15,432
music and before that Like disco where
they, where they represented culture and

1778
01:40:15,432 --> 01:40:20,442
community and they TLC use the freight,
like we want to be for the culture.

1779
01:40:20,442 --> 01:40:22,692
We want people to see
themselves in what we're doing.

1780
01:40:23,102 --> 01:40:26,420
So you can also learn quite a bit
of American history by tracing

1781
01:40:26,420 --> 01:40:31,170
your way back through, through that
thread up to the early seventies.

1782
01:40:31,451 --> 01:40:32,701
Cliff: We say it's all in there.

1783
01:40:32,761 --> 01:40:33,931
That's cause it's all in there.

1784
01:40:34,081 --> 01:40:34,941
Just keep looking.

1785
01:40:36,261 --> 01:40:38,491
So let's, let's bring this
thing home because this will

1786
01:40:38,491 --> 01:40:39,951
probably be the easiest part.

1787
01:40:39,981 --> 01:40:45,831
Honestly, let's talk about all the
stuff that would not exist if it

1788
01:40:45,831 --> 01:40:49,451
wasn't for pretty much this record
or at the very least this artist.

1789
01:40:50,618 --> 01:40:51,538
Kyle: Starting at the top.

1790
01:40:51,568 --> 01:40:51,838
Cliff: Yep.

1791
01:40:52,728 --> 01:40:53,958
Like literally the top

1792
01:40:54,398 --> 01:40:59,803
Kyle: there, there would be
no Beyonce, Outkast, or Usher.

1793
01:41:00,473 --> 01:41:01,183
Period.

1794
01:41:02,547 --> 01:41:07,547
three of the only diamond selling
artists of the 21st century.

1795
01:41:07,917 --> 01:41:08,437
Period.

1796
01:41:09,047 --> 01:41:14,207
So like, Three of the four stars
in the big dipper, so to speak.

1797
01:41:15,279 --> 01:41:21,109
very rarely does an artist spawn
almost single handedly one artist

1798
01:41:21,109 --> 01:41:24,119
of that level where you can
point directly in the lineage.

1799
01:41:24,449 --> 01:41:27,149
And I don't want anybody coming
on our mentions talking about the

1800
01:41:27,149 --> 01:41:28,629
Beatles or any shit like that.

1801
01:41:29,639 --> 01:41:30,149
Blocked.

1802
01:41:31,139 --> 01:41:33,649
Immediate, immediate, straight to jail.

1803
01:41:34,536 --> 01:41:38,906
I, but just like wrap your head around the
magnitude of that and they directly say

1804
01:41:38,916 --> 01:41:43,936
like Beyonce is quoted on the record as
saying there would be no Destiny's Child.

1805
01:41:43,936 --> 01:41:46,786
In fact, there would be no
girl groups like this without.

1806
01:41:47,510 --> 01:41:52,171
and then like the Spice Girls who,
if you're not from America, they

1807
01:41:52,191 --> 01:41:58,271
are huge on this level still to this
day and are individually iconic.

1808
01:41:58,633 --> 01:42:02,933
would not exist without some mutual
inspiration and competition from TLC.

1809
01:42:03,653 --> 01:42:11,663
But then, the longer tail of influence
is like name a cool R and B artist

1810
01:42:11,683 --> 01:42:15,923
or indie artist or somebody that you
feel like is mutating the culture

1811
01:42:15,923 --> 01:42:17,463
or pushing it forward in some way.

1812
01:42:17,773 --> 01:42:19,683
Kehlani, Cardi B.

1813
01:42:19,998 --> 01:42:27,485
Frank Ocean, Kiki Palmer, Solange,
Rihanna, Taylor Swift, the beehive,

1814
01:42:27,485 --> 01:42:32,387
the Swifties, the Rihanna Navy's,
whatever a Chapel Rone fan is

1815
01:42:32,387 --> 01:42:37,027
called, uh, , a Rod, Rodrigo Hive.

1816
01:42:37,467 --> 01:42:39,417
None of that exists without the like.

1817
01:42:39,784 --> 01:42:44,174
culture permeating world building that
they were able to do with their fans.

1818
01:42:44,671 --> 01:42:50,308
I also just want to shout out Cardi B on
her debut album using the line smash your

1819
01:42:50,308 --> 01:42:55,288
TV from Best Buy you gonna turn me into
left eye and I wanted to read that out

1820
01:42:55,288 --> 01:43:00,158
loud because when I read it out loud to
myself in preparation I knew I sounded

1821
01:43:00,158 --> 01:43:02,798
exactly like the white lady on the episode

1822
01:43:05,448 --> 01:43:07,488
shout out Colin Kaepernick

1823
01:43:07,855 --> 01:43:11,185
Cliff: that's okay you can get me on
record just repeating they call me left

1824
01:43:11,185 --> 01:43:15,192
eye because I write Oh, that's okay.

1825
01:43:15,192 --> 01:43:16,242
So that's a bar.

1826
01:43:16,292 --> 01:43:17,252
God, that's a bar.

1827
01:43:17,372 --> 01:43:19,982
Oh, it is.

1828
01:43:20,022 --> 01:43:23,582
It is really a thing to watch
a video and watch someone

1829
01:43:23,582 --> 01:43:25,542
say a thing that sounds cool.

1830
01:43:25,582 --> 01:43:29,512
And then you're like, if my mouth
said that, that's a hard no thousand

1831
01:43:29,642 --> 01:43:30,332
Kyle: thousand percent.

1832
01:43:30,462 --> 01:43:31,742
Cliff: So I'm glad that I recorded that.

1833
01:43:31,772 --> 01:43:31,962
Oh,

1834
01:43:32,022 --> 01:43:36,815
Kyle: also, the Literal Recording Academy
has an article on their website, 10 Ways

1835
01:43:36,825 --> 01:43:41,745
TLC, shaped the future of R& B and they
could have just cut it off at future.

1836
01:43:41,995 --> 01:43:46,355
One of the 10 ways is quote, they've
continued to pervade pop culture.

1837
01:43:46,635 --> 01:43:49,552
Although their recording output
has been relatively slim over the

1838
01:43:49,552 --> 01:43:52,682
last 20 years, they've remained a
part of the pop culture landscape.

1839
01:43:52,922 --> 01:43:57,152
One of the 21st century's most streamed
hits, If you've ever been in a public

1840
01:43:57,152 --> 01:43:58,632
place, it's assaulted your ears.

1841
01:43:58,932 --> 01:44:03,122
Ed Sheeran's shape of you was deemed
so similar to no scrubs that the

1842
01:44:03,122 --> 01:44:07,152
Brit was forced to acknowledge its
influence in the songwriting credits.

1843
01:44:07,772 --> 01:44:13,762
Furthermore, Drake, Zendaya and Catronata
are just a few of the contemporary names

1844
01:44:13,922 --> 01:44:18,132
who've either sampled or covered the trio
while rapper J Cole managed to persuade

1845
01:44:18,132 --> 01:44:23,192
T Boz and Chili themselves to join him
in the studio on 2013's Crooked Smile.

1846
01:44:23,542 --> 01:44:25,452
Hard pressed to find somebody.

1847
01:44:26,192 --> 01:44:31,596
That is still that relevant, updating
in the cosmic consciousness today.

1848
01:44:31,963 --> 01:44:34,033
Cliff: And those are
just a handful of things.

1849
01:44:34,033 --> 01:44:35,003
Barely scratching the surface.

1850
01:44:35,003 --> 01:44:39,833
You picked from a literal listicle that
they wrote about how important they are.

1851
01:44:39,843 --> 01:44:40,133
That's

1852
01:44:40,133 --> 01:44:43,873
Kyle: just the biggest, again, the
biggest names you can think of.

1853
01:44:44,223 --> 01:44:47,633
There's a Freddie Gibbs song
that samples TLC that I love.

1854
01:44:47,633 --> 01:44:49,293
I mean, it's infinitesimal.

1855
01:44:49,293 --> 01:44:55,893
It goes so much further, but just again,
name all the biggest artists right now,

1856
01:44:55,893 --> 01:44:59,263
the past five or 10 years, and there's
a TLC connection for all of them.

1857
01:44:59,630 --> 01:45:04,990
You can't say that about very much, you
know, like only Michael Jordan influenced

1858
01:45:05,010 --> 01:45:07,050
LeBron James to play basketball.

1859
01:45:07,150 --> 01:45:09,930
Like it's sort of that level of thing.

1860
01:45:10,349 --> 01:45:14,206
Cliff: I think we've done the
best we can to mention this with

1861
01:45:14,756 --> 01:45:16,476
appropriate seriousness throughout.

1862
01:45:16,486 --> 01:45:22,207
But yeah, on top of the musical impact
that they've had, I think this, the

1863
01:45:22,227 --> 01:45:26,887
topic of this record, as we've talked
about, the concept of allowing people

1864
01:45:26,887 --> 01:45:31,717
to contain multitudes, not attempting to
put them in boxes that are pre labeled,

1865
01:45:32,047 --> 01:45:36,027
just so that you can make a few extra
bucks a little easier, and letting

1866
01:45:36,027 --> 01:45:37,967
people exist how they need to exist.

1867
01:45:38,286 --> 01:45:43,766
There was definitely some silliness here,
okay but there was also a lot of bravery

1868
01:45:44,216 --> 01:45:48,896
that I think we should carry forward and
acknowledge because it helps us remember

1869
01:45:48,955 --> 01:45:55,092
that especially society, societally, we
still have a tendency to find people who

1870
01:45:55,092 --> 01:45:59,722
are not In this order, male, white, rich.

1871
01:46:00,652 --> 01:46:03,972
And we like to find all the people who
aren't those three things necessarily.

1872
01:46:04,339 --> 01:46:07,709
And we like to put them in
boxes as soon as we feel that

1873
01:46:07,709 --> 01:46:09,369
we have an excuse to do so.

1874
01:46:09,849 --> 01:46:15,406
And Left Eye was one example of
this, who I think, even in retrospect

1875
01:46:15,406 --> 01:46:19,261
reading a lot of the interviews,
handled it, honestly, pretty well.

1876
01:46:19,628 --> 01:46:24,845
With a relative amount of lightness
and ease with the sense that some

1877
01:46:24,855 --> 01:46:31,105
shit happened that she was a part of
some things happened to her, but what

1878
01:46:31,105 --> 01:46:35,745
we actually remember about that, if
we're lazy about it, as she would go

1879
01:46:35,745 --> 01:46:40,415
on to talk about, actually, in a 95
interview, was that she felt like she

1880
01:46:40,415 --> 01:46:46,746
had earned this label as a, jealous,
crazy bitch, while her ex came off clean.

1881
01:46:47,211 --> 01:46:50,818
there were two people involved in this
thing, but she was the crazy one, and I

1882
01:46:50,818 --> 01:46:58,052
think it gives us a nice little moment to
remember that not only are we responsible

1883
01:46:59,130 --> 01:47:02,460
for the boxes that we try to put people
in, and that we try to label them as,

1884
01:47:02,460 --> 01:47:06,130
and especially the way that we speak
about them after they have passed on

1885
01:47:06,150 --> 01:47:13,257
from Earth and society in general, um,
but These people are not only containing

1886
01:47:13,257 --> 01:47:19,787
multitudes, but fighting a multitude of
battles against being put in these boxes,

1887
01:47:20,147 --> 01:47:25,612
and records like this come from moments
where people I mean, someone was feeling

1888
01:47:25,612 --> 01:47:31,689
like the world was labeling them crazy,
while they were having to be in rehab,

1889
01:47:31,699 --> 01:47:35,669
while they were helping record an album
that would go on to have the impact that

1890
01:47:35,669 --> 01:47:41,009
you just talked about, and that's not to
minimize at all the struggle that must

1891
01:47:41,039 --> 01:47:45,439
have come from her bandmates having to
deal with somebody being in rehab it's

1892
01:47:45,449 --> 01:47:50,351
so much that we add to people sometimes,
and it's, you know, We should not make

1893
01:47:50,361 --> 01:47:54,051
the mistake, especially when we have
moments like this Of forgetting that we

1894
01:47:54,051 --> 01:47:58,600
can also use music as a lens to go back
and look at human beings and go As far

1895
01:47:58,600 --> 01:48:01,810
as we know they did the best that they
could We can look at things and we can

1896
01:48:01,810 --> 01:48:07,147
say that was probably not good and we
can say, uh, you know I wouldn't do that.

1897
01:48:07,177 --> 01:48:08,227
That wasn't a good idea.

1898
01:48:08,377 --> 01:48:12,359
Maybe they're a bad person for a
thing or else Especially decades

1899
01:48:12,359 --> 01:48:17,239
down the road, look back at artists,
especially as multifaceted as TLC,

1900
01:48:17,249 --> 01:48:21,894
with so much intention, and just Put
them in buckets or talk about it.

1901
01:48:21,894 --> 01:48:25,724
Like it was just another nineties hip
hop record or something like that.

1902
01:48:26,034 --> 01:48:30,694
Always, always, always minimizes
the magic of the thing.

1903
01:48:32,401 --> 01:48:37,001
so fun to try to unpack this by never
saying it directly every time we have

1904
01:48:37,001 --> 01:48:43,591
an episode, but just do not let yourself
become a dumb person who experiences

1905
01:48:43,591 --> 01:48:49,711
music as boneheaded entertainment
that's coming in through Streaming

1906
01:48:49,761 --> 01:48:51,871
towards you that you're consuming.

1907
01:48:52,091 --> 01:48:57,271
That's just kind of filling your
background or Sort of accompanying you

1908
01:48:57,271 --> 01:49:02,478
as you go on in life like some music
doesn't mean anything sure But a lot of

1909
01:49:02,478 --> 01:49:07,678
it means a fucking lot Yeah, a lot a lot
and there's so much to it and there's so

1910
01:49:07,678 --> 01:49:13,168
much to love about it You really don't
ever have to get too caught up in well,

1911
01:49:13,428 --> 01:49:18,023
so and so was a part of this So I don't
really need to care about that Okay you

1912
01:49:18,023 --> 01:49:19,513
can do that with Chris Brown records.

1913
01:49:19,523 --> 01:49:24,793
That'll be the one exception that I give
you Everything else is like you must go a

1914
01:49:24,793 --> 01:49:31,393
few steps into it to see the thing again
to rediscover the beauty of who they were

1915
01:49:31,393 --> 01:49:38,003
trying to Support and encourage in how
seriously they took their own fame and how

1916
01:49:38,013 --> 01:49:42,390
seriously they took their collaboration
with other artists and like so much beauty

1917
01:49:42,390 --> 01:49:48,400
came out of Something that was meant to
be this singular moment to show how people

1918
01:49:48,400 --> 01:49:54,100
contain multitudes and like Definitely the
meta theme of our conversations always,

1919
01:49:54,110 --> 01:49:58,937
it's like, no, look further don't turn
away, don't squint your eyes so that

1920
01:49:58,937 --> 01:50:03,217
something becomes easier to look at, like
go into it, look at every detail, look

1921
01:50:03,217 --> 01:50:07,517
at the kaleidoscope of stuff, because
you're going to find the connection points

1922
01:50:07,517 --> 01:50:13,147
that inspire you to love things, and
to appreciate things, and so like, once

1923
01:50:13,147 --> 01:50:19,827
again, what is otherwise, a nice, classic,
popular, R& B and hip hop record from

1924
01:50:19,827 --> 01:50:25,412
the 90s has Touch my fucking heart again
in like a really specific way where it's

1925
01:50:25,412 --> 01:50:30,322
like man I really appreciate what these
people did And I appreciate that they made

1926
01:50:30,322 --> 01:50:35,682
this music and that they cared about what
it would actually mean Because that care

1927
01:50:35,892 --> 01:50:42,354
meant something that care is what created
Like you mentioned Beyonce, it's not just

1928
01:50:42,354 --> 01:50:47,564
TLC's happenstance of existence, it's
what they did on purpose every day that

1929
01:50:47,564 --> 01:50:51,064
led to people saying, TLC made me happen.

1930
01:50:53,264 --> 01:50:54,764
So dig the fuck in, man.

1931
01:50:54,804 --> 01:50:58,244
You know, like, when you care about
shit and you really feel aligned with

1932
01:50:58,244 --> 01:51:00,204
the thing that you care about, dig in.

1933
01:51:00,504 --> 01:51:04,894
Commit yourself to it, try to keep
yourself honest keep a fire extinguisher

1934
01:51:04,894 --> 01:51:06,464
handy in case things get out of hand.

1935
01:51:06,864 --> 01:51:10,989
But otherwise, like Man, lean into
the whole thing, because you never

1936
01:51:10,989 --> 01:51:12,869
know when it turns out like this.

1937
01:51:13,229 --> 01:51:15,689
They never could have
pointed at this in 1994.

1938
01:51:16,854 --> 01:51:21,514
Kyle: You know, you use the word brave,
and I actually think that's going to be

1939
01:51:21,514 --> 01:51:23,424
the thing that I take away from this.

1940
01:51:23,494 --> 01:51:29,279
I wouldn't have gotten there on my
own, so I thank you, but Thinking about

1941
01:51:29,329 --> 01:51:31,369
we all contain so many multitudes.

1942
01:51:31,389 --> 01:51:34,529
I hope that is the flavor of
multitude that you take away.

1943
01:51:34,969 --> 01:51:41,379
Because not only was it brave to overcome
a problematic domestic situation and rehab

1944
01:51:41,439 --> 01:51:47,669
and Oh, by the way, the insane bankruptcy
story and taking Clive Davis hostage

1945
01:51:47,669 --> 01:51:49,619
story that we didn't even get into.

1946
01:51:50,129 --> 01:51:54,676
That's its own gobsmacking rabbit
hole at the core of it, though.

1947
01:51:55,281 --> 01:52:01,311
the choices that they made just sonically
as musicians on this record is brave

1948
01:52:01,641 --> 01:52:06,921
and hopefully their bravery is an
inspiration for you to be braver as

1949
01:52:06,921 --> 01:52:12,658
a listener and as a person who makes
your way expressing who you are and

1950
01:52:12,658 --> 01:52:16,408
finding your oneliness in the world.

1951
01:52:17,154 --> 01:52:18,011
so thank you for that.

1952
01:52:18,011 --> 01:52:21,186
I, hope I can be more
brave like these three.

1953
01:52:21,553 --> 01:52:22,243
Or sexy

1954
01:52:22,243 --> 01:52:22,673
Cliff: or cool.