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Kyle: Today we're talking
about Grace by Jeff Buckley.

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Cliff: For me, this record was one
of those nice swift kicks in the ass

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because I don't understand why I didn't
already love this record, why I didn't

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care as much about the individual songs
as so many people that I admire on some

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of the deepest musical levels possible
I have been shocked I had heard of

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people like Jimmy Page mentioned Jeff
Buckley before but had never heard him

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gone far enough down the rabbit hole to
understand what he was actually saying

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about this and the words that he used.

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Jimmy Page specifically is a person
who's like famously kind of shits on

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other people and definitely doesn't use
superlatives to describe the musicality

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of other people who weren't in his
band at that literal moment in time.

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Kyle: He has such a boomer
attitude about music.

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If it was made after
Led Zeppelin, it sucks.

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Except grace

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Cliff: Yup.

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And he is breathless about it.

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Calls it one of his favorite albums
at that time of that decade, said

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that, you know, would say things like
he couldn't stop listening to it.

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when he and Robert plant end up making
a plan to go see a particular artist,

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cause they're performing nearby.

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And then when you start to connect
that dot, as we'll talk about,

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like, this is why it made it,
the whole thing just felt like a.

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Kick in the pants, like
understanding how they talked

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about it and then understanding,
Oh, this whole loop is complete.

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Jeff Buckley is obsessed with them.

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He's imitating them.

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This is like literally the highest praise
you could achieve inside of musicality for

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like the modern era of blues rock music
and like, Here's this just unassuming

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singular record that existed from this
one moment in time from a person who

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didn't Exist long enough to show us what
would happen after they followed up a

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record like this And it just this whole
process just really blew me away in a way.

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I didn't expect.

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Kyle: 30 short years on earth.

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We got with this guy, like it'll really
make you believe in cosmic messengers.

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And some people were just cosmically
ordained and the stardust of their

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bodies to like bring the divine to us.

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Um, it's.

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It's hard after you learn the things we've
learned, to feel like Jeff Buckley was

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anything other than one of those things.

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And, and he was not only a Led
Zeppelin fan, like that, that

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undersells it a great deal.

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Physical graffiti was a gift from his
stepfather, was the first record he owned

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and became the blueprint for everything.

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So parents listening, if this is
nothing, if not a testament to

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like, make sure the first album
and show your kid gets are good.

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Not saying they're going to turn
out to be Jeff Buckley because

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they unequivocally will not.

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But.

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They can go in pretty special directions
if you give them pretty special tools.

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Cliff: Yep.

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Nope.

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It was realizing that that example
of Led Zeppelin and Jeff Buckley was

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just one in a constellation of people
who were falling over themselves

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to talk about how good he was.

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And so, I just for this episode in
particular, it's cool to just come

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right out and say, I didn't get it.

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I still kind of don't get it.

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But like I am trusting the words and
the lineage of people who do get it

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whose opinions I respect so deeply
That I can like ride that wave on

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into this record Learn a lot about it.

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Enjoy it differently than I had before
And certainly come to respect it on

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a much deeper level than I had before
I had Kind of gone in intentionally.

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Kyle: So, so two things real
quick and then we can dive in.

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One, yes, a lot of musical heroes,
uh, law this record and I know we'll

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name check a bunch of them later
on, but the, my entry point was in

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late high school or early college.

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Good looking cool girls all
seem to like this record.

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And I had, uh, Lover You Should Have
Come Over on my iPod accordingly,

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but that was kind of like it.

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And, you know, the Hallelujah cover is
a, is a whole, whole other ballgame.

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But then also not, not only did people
recognize something sort of special

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and cosmic and containing multitudes
in him he, I think, aspired to contain

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the whole of all good music in himself.

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I will lean often on the phenomenal
writing of Daphne Brooks, who wrote the

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33 and a third book on Grace and as a
professional writer of sorts myself, I

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will just say I was moved  few, a few
times to the point of tears reading

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this book, just really dazzling,
phenomenal writing and she said of him.

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Uh, the many things she said of him in
the book, uh, I thought this summed it

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up nicely, a 30 year old white boy who
stretched himself valiantly across a whole

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gamut of sound from Ella Fitzgerald to
Led Zeppelin from Mahalia Jackson to the

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Melvins in a series of Fearlessly poetic
musical boundary crossing Jeff Buckley's

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scored the achingly beautiful soundtrack
to an entire generation's odyssey of

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difference and deliverance, diversity and
discontent, a quote, mystery white boy.

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He was possibility hope the
manifestation of all that post

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revolution turmoil entangled with
itself in a sweet, bitter embrace.

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All right, give us some context.

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what literally was grace?

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the album, not the thing.

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Cliff: Favorite of Gen Xers
released in August of 1994.

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Uh, and part of the reason this
whole thing is so fascinating

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and mysterious, right?

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His only actual full length studio album.

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This record was not an immediate success
in the traditional ways of measuring

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that, uh, it has been one of those
pieces of art that we've talked about

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in other episodes and, and other related
artists that we've discussed where,

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uh, only posthumously do they really
grow in accolade and praise and, um,

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Almost reputation of the piece itself.

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And so in that case that's
really what grace has become.

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We know that people were in
love with it while he was alive.

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So we know that it is not just an effect
of him no longer being here or, you

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know, projecting onto something else.

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But certainly the amount of attention
that people have paid to it in the time

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since then, uh, has grown significantly.

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Kyle: I think it was
cool to see in the wiki.

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Uh, they, they sort of chart
like how it has climbed on

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ranking list over the years.

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Every time they revisit one of those
big lists, grace always gets moved up,

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which isn't always the case with records.

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It's now 99 and Colin Larkin's
all time top a thousand records.

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And Colin Larkin said his music
achieved a perfection that was

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staggering for a debut album.

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Cliff: A few things that are definitely
interesting about it, though, that

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I think for the lesser initiated or
uninitiated will, I I think having

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this key before you try to understand
it for the first time will help.

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Okay?

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This dude's voice, he had a
four octave vocal range, okay?

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He was directly compared to having
the same range as Pavarotti.

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so, that's not just a really good artist,
that is like Mariah Carey, Celine Dion

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levels of vocal control, where now all
of a sudden you have twice the space

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to play out vocals that correspond
with guitars, which is going to really

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come in handy if you're a fan of
someone like Robert Plant who's going

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to stretch way on the upper end of it.

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And if you can switch into that mode.

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The pure surface area of your music.

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Expands and changes at that point.

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And I think going into these songs,
understanding that level of not only

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control, but capability that he had
helped sort of unlock what it is

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he's doing in some of these moments.

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But then also something I'll point out.

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Probably point out as we go along a number
of times things really clicked into place.

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The more I watch live videos, like I
understood why people clamored to get

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to this dude while he was performing
because between the, thought and

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presentation that he brought to it and
the capabilities that he brought in.

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improvising or creating new ways of
doing particular songs or changing the

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way a song would work in a given time.

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He was channeling the lineage of the
people that he studied and loved in music,

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whether that's blues tradition or just the
songwriting tradition of, you know, slowly

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adding or changing verses over time.

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Like, All of this swirling mass of stuff.

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He found a way to channel directly into
not only his live performances, but

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like we said, this literally singular
full length studio album from the

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mid nineties, that is just people can
return to it over and over again to

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figure out that, yeah, they were right.

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It was really good back then
when they first heard it and

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they still think it's good now.

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Kyle: And to call it a debut is really
deceptive because, to your point,

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he'd been honing material or like
sort of excavating stuff Soulquarian

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style for two straight years.

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He was playing weekly gigs at Sine Cafe.

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In New York and recordings of that,
thankfully are out now, but you can

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see where he has taken on everything
from, Van Morrison to strange fruit,

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which is like a bold choice for a white
dude at a coffee house and stuff would

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stretch into eight, 10, 13 minutes.

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Renditions and there's always searching
and striving and expansiveness in it

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like there's just a sense of bigness
which for an intimate venue like a

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coffeehouse is a strange thing to do.

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A scribe.

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But he was seasoned.

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I mean, he'd, he'd been playing
a lot, which I know you'll get

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into by the time we got to Grace.

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So it's like, it's a entry level
position with 20 years of job experience,

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like all employers seem to want.

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Cliff: Yeah, so, just to pile on,
especially before we go a little

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further into the things that were really
happening at the moment where he was,

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uh, Again, putting those so called
20 years of experience into practice.

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You know, I already mentioned
a little bit of something that

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was impactful to me personally.

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Like, I, you know, I deeply
connect with the music of Led

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Zeppelin for a number of reasons.

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But one of them is the I just, I vibe
with the reverence that those people have

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for music and how impossible it is for
most people to achieve an appropriately

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elevated level of musicality.

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they kind of hate everything
because nothing's good enough.

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Whether they have the self awareness to
know that's because they've been able

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to spend their whole lives cultivating
it and other people can't, who knows.

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The, the way that they connect
and almost judge other music has

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helped me to find other places
to start and expand and explore.

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Because if they're willing to
point at something, it's something

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I'm willing to pay attention to.

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And so, while they won't be the only
ones I'll mention here in a second,

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like, One of the quotes that really
kind of blew me away was that, so Jimmy

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Page and Jeff Buckley met each other.

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Um, they cried.

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They both cried when they met each other.

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And in the most sincere moment I can
imagine Jimmy Page being a part of, ever.

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There was a recognition that Jimmy
Page was hearing himself in Jeff,

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who was a guitar player and a
vocalist who was part of the band.

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Really channeling a lot of
what Led Zeppelin was doing.

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But like, even beyond those, Bob Dylan
said that Jeff Buckley was one of the

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greatest songwriters of the decade.

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David Bowie said that Grace
was the best album ever made.

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And that if he, it was
his Desert Island album.

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So, Even though we took one particular
channel for me to start to show

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how kind of blown away I was by the
accolade, like that should be another

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pretty solid lineup there already,
uh, of people who are across the

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spectrum of music, who all somehow
are seeing something similar despite

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having totally different approaches
to how music ought to be written.

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Like, I can't think of honestly
three different people from a similar

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time period more apart than Jimmy
Page, Bob Dylan, and David Bowie.

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I

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Kyle: worked with Patty Smith.

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He started work, uh, with Tim Verlaine
of television they, they started

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to work together on the very early
formation of the followup to grace.

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He sent Radiohead in a whole different
direction because of Tom York.

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There's just almost No, nowhere that this
dude hasn't touched in the past 25 years.

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And this, this album was released in 94
and it's so set apart from the rest of

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its cultural context, you know, you think
about we have Nevermind and in utero at

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this point, we have Pearl Jam's 10, we
have like all, all of grunge has sort of

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risen up and started to, Explode outward.

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I guess super unknown would have
been out by this point to probably,

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and then there's LA West coast rap.

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Just a ton of stuff happening
that is not like this.

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It's a time laden with disillusionment
and just  Of post Reaganomics and

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whatever, like, the early 90s were a
strange time culturally, and here comes

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this thing that is deeply, piercingly
earnest and part of me wants to connect

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it so badly to things of this moment
that are so singular and, like, vibe

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shifting, you know, I'm thinking about
the Chappell Roan, Brat, whatever moment

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that's happening right now, that, that
was just like You wake up from the dream

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within the dream within the dream to, to
ascend to a different level that maybe

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is also surreal, but totally different.

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But it's hard to find contextual equals
for, for what happened with this record.

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00:14:41,943 --> 00:14:47,190
that at once seems like it was such an
underground, if you know, you know thing.

223
00:14:47,557 --> 00:14:50,634
But was also like kind of a huge thing.

224
00:14:50,674 --> 00:14:55,314
Like he had a, he had a concert on much
music that is very much worth watching.

225
00:14:55,314 --> 00:14:58,704
So, it, it is a little baffling
to be like, what other things

226
00:14:58,704 --> 00:15:00,124
happen that were like this?

227
00:15:00,454 --> 00:15:03,964
Um, I, I think the more times you try
to ask that question of Jeff Buckley

228
00:15:03,964 --> 00:15:07,949
and have this record, the more the
answer is like, It's just that it's

229
00:15:07,979 --> 00:15:11,366
this it almost kind of makes sense
that it was his only solo record ever.

230
00:15:11,366 --> 00:15:14,376
It would be great to have
25 Jeff Buckley records.

231
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But the fact that in a
way, this is all we got.

232
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There's a lot of bumper content around it.

233
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So big caveat there.

234
00:15:22,423 --> 00:15:27,383
But you know, the one sort of start
and finish studio statement really

235
00:15:27,383 --> 00:15:28,823
makes it feel like a singular moment.

236
00:15:28,823 --> 00:15:31,253
And I think we got to like
almost take it in as such.

237
00:15:31,437 --> 00:15:36,414
Cliff: think part of probably what
contributed to that odd to explain

238
00:15:36,414 --> 00:15:41,904
moment in time that we can't really
create very often with singular artists

239
00:15:41,904 --> 00:15:45,814
like this, it's like, one of the
reasons we're already talking about a

240
00:15:45,814 --> 00:15:49,914
million people who aren't Jeff Buckley
to contextualize Jeff Buckley is like,

241
00:15:50,114 --> 00:15:52,414
this is also how he thought of himself.

242
00:15:52,644 --> 00:15:53,974
And I, I think it's worth just.

243
00:15:54,554 --> 00:15:58,934
Describing a little bit of the Petri
dish that he sort of evolved out of

244
00:15:59,104 --> 00:16:04,824
the scientific accident that we had in
creating Jeff Buckley because even in

245
00:16:05,214 --> 00:16:06,624
Kyle: to quote the parlance of the times.

246
00:16:06,624 --> 00:16:08,574
He didn't just fall out of a coconut tree.

247
00:16:09,294 --> 00:16:11,394
He is in the context of
all that came before him.

248
00:16:12,514 --> 00:16:12,934
He is.

249
00:16:13,604 --> 00:16:17,414
Jeff Buckley is the most coconut peeled
artist I can imagine at this moment.

250
00:16:19,491 --> 00:16:20,811
Cliff: what a time to be alive.

251
00:16:21,211 --> 00:16:27,041
But even in, so apparently he self wrote a
press bio at some point, but he described

252
00:16:27,041 --> 00:16:33,921
himself as quote, the warped love child
of Nina Simone and all four members of

253
00:16:33,921 --> 00:16:39,931
Led Zeppelin with the fertilized egg
transplanted into the womb of a deep PF

254
00:16:40,291 --> 00:16:44,971
out of which he is born and left on the
street to be tortured by bad brains.

255
00:16:45,336 --> 00:16:45,576
Kyle: why?

256
00:16:45,576 --> 00:16:47,736
Bad brain's gotta do the torture it, man.

257
00:16:49,767 --> 00:16:52,898
Cliff: But like, so I'm even going
to use that as a little moment before

258
00:16:52,898 --> 00:16:56,628
we keep talking about the album, but
that's a self description, right?

259
00:16:56,998 --> 00:17:01,728
He saw himself as an amalgamation
of the things that he thinks about

260
00:17:01,738 --> 00:17:04,998
or was chasing or was tortured by or

261
00:17:05,393 --> 00:17:06,383
Kyle: It beats other things.

262
00:17:06,383 --> 00:17:09,353
He workshop like Chuse with
a penis was one of 'em.

263
00:17:09,808 --> 00:17:10,208
. Mm-Hmm.

264
00:17:11,482 --> 00:17:13,357
Cliff: this is certainly not
the only reason we, you know,

265
00:17:13,967 --> 00:17:15,677
Picked this record to talk about.

266
00:17:15,677 --> 00:17:21,447
But one of them is that when we have
an artist who is like this, it is a

267
00:17:21,447 --> 00:17:27,377
rare opportunity for you to do the
best version of Spotify related artists

268
00:17:27,577 --> 00:17:29,787
that's ever existed because now.

269
00:17:29,937 --> 00:17:36,327
Every quote, every cover, every
intimation, interpolation, everything

270
00:17:36,597 --> 00:17:41,437
is an arrow pointing at someone
who is deeply good at music.

271
00:17:41,467 --> 00:17:42,777
Kyle: Mm-Hmm.

272
00:17:43,087 --> 00:17:47,437
Cliff: so just using the example of the
quote I just gave about his own press bio,

273
00:17:47,667 --> 00:17:54,397
a DPF is a reference for me that I was not
super familiar with as a French singer,

274
00:17:54,647 --> 00:17:56,727
except This is what keeps happening.

275
00:17:56,727 --> 00:18:02,377
This is sometimes I get too earnestly
excited about music shit and it's nice

276
00:18:02,377 --> 00:18:05,267
to have an outlet for it, but like, okay.

277
00:18:05,287 --> 00:18:07,897
So I started looking
into who Adit Piaf is.

278
00:18:08,167 --> 00:18:11,597
Well, it turns out that, in this moment
in time that we're recording it not

279
00:18:11,597 --> 00:18:15,487
too long before now, uh, we have the
opening ceremony of the Olympics.

280
00:18:15,727 --> 00:18:19,347
Celine Dion makes a comeback from
a neurological disorder that's

281
00:18:19,357 --> 00:18:20,727
preventing her from being able to sing.

282
00:18:20,907 --> 00:18:23,047
It's this like hugely triumphant.

283
00:18:23,372 --> 00:18:24,002
Moment.

284
00:18:24,092 --> 00:18:27,243
And we'll probably never talk about
a Selene record on a tuned egg

285
00:18:27,273 --> 00:18:29,583
episode, but like, she's really good.

286
00:18:29,883 --> 00:18:31,933
Like we're all on the
same page about this.

287
00:18:32,443 --> 00:18:37,273
What she chose to sing wasn't a deep
half song called him to them more.

288
00:18:37,553 --> 00:18:42,423
And that was what she chose as her
comeback performance for the first time

289
00:18:42,583 --> 00:18:44,773
years after not being able to perform.

290
00:18:45,218 --> 00:18:50,148
Literally standing on the Eiffel Tower
in front of the world, like every little

291
00:18:50,158 --> 00:18:57,428
dot that you chase is some other just
deeply good, fascinating aspect of

292
00:18:57,428 --> 00:19:01,998
music that just flowed out of this human
being who seemed to be like the human

293
00:19:02,008 --> 00:19:04,743
equivalent of a crate of vinyl, like.

294
00:19:06,143 --> 00:19:10,593
Everything was all together somehow
for him and he was channeling different

295
00:19:10,603 --> 00:19:12,073
aspects of things all the time.

296
00:19:12,543 --> 00:19:15,463
And so like that was just one
example like that took me in

297
00:19:15,463 --> 00:19:16,623
a whole different direction.

298
00:19:17,013 --> 00:19:20,813
That I definitely never would
have chased myself, much less

299
00:19:20,813 --> 00:19:22,503
had the algorithm present to me.

300
00:19:22,923 --> 00:19:24,663
Um, if I hadn't chased it at all.

301
00:19:25,030 --> 00:19:29,174
Kyle: It was said of him, by the
biographer, David Brown, that he could

302
00:19:29,174 --> 00:19:32,544
hear a song once, instantly memorize
it, and then play it straight through.

303
00:19:32,544 --> 00:19:36,874
So, He said he was voraciously curious
about music and culture, about the rich

304
00:19:36,874 --> 00:19:38,474
and remarkable world in which he lived.

305
00:19:38,544 --> 00:19:41,934
A teenage Jeff Buckley found solace
and release in both intellectually

306
00:19:41,934 --> 00:19:44,294
sardonic humor and scalding rock excess.

307
00:19:44,764 --> 00:19:47,914
George Carlin and Led Zeppelin,
1980s ironic David Letterman

308
00:19:47,914 --> 00:19:49,414
humor, and Rush and Kiss.

309
00:19:49,784 --> 00:19:52,544
All of that cultural mayhem was
swirling around in Jeff's head and

310
00:19:52,544 --> 00:19:55,854
with the equivalent of a photographic
memory in relation to music, he

311
00:19:55,854 --> 00:19:59,004
could, hear a song once, instantly
memorize and play it straight through.

312
00:19:59,371 --> 00:19:59,881
That's rad.

313
00:20:00,154 --> 00:20:05,054
it brings to mind, you know, Lester
Bang's said of Van Morrison that he

314
00:20:05,084 --> 00:20:11,004
could compress a ton of information,
emotional information into a song.

315
00:20:11,424 --> 00:20:16,106
And I, I think that's what, Buckley was
always doing was, was just, he saw it

316
00:20:16,106 --> 00:20:22,366
all as information to enrich the sort
of textures and shades of a feeling.

317
00:20:22,376 --> 00:20:24,836
It was all in service of feeling.

318
00:20:24,836 --> 00:20:28,166
This is a big feels record
and he was a big feels guy.

319
00:20:28,686 --> 00:20:32,793
So if that's what you're going for is
like maximum feeling, I, You know, can't

320
00:20:32,793 --> 00:20:37,993
imagine more than that, but I like that
idea of like compressing, compressing

321
00:20:38,013 --> 00:20:43,773
a creative records until like one,
one densest matter of the universe

322
00:20:43,793 --> 00:20:48,233
unit of emotional information and then
given it to you in a coffee house.

323
00:20:49,829 --> 00:20:50,789
Cliff: a great way of thinking about it.

324
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:55,829
The way that he packed information
into music was incredible.

325
00:20:56,049 --> 00:21:00,689
Because saying that, even if you just
took one example and said that he,

326
00:21:01,019 --> 00:21:06,579
channeled blues or channeled emotion
into whether it's his own covers

327
00:21:06,589 --> 00:21:10,493
or his original songs or whatever,
it doesn't quite go far enough.

328
00:21:11,288 --> 00:21:16,857
Because he understood things at
a deep enough level to pack in

329
00:21:17,207 --> 00:21:22,744
context without being historically
irreverent, if that makes enough sense.

330
00:21:22,914 --> 00:21:28,434
That's a really hard thing to do,
to bring forward old things while

331
00:21:28,474 --> 00:21:33,394
actively and verbally talking about
exactly aping, in a lot of cases.

332
00:21:33,624 --> 00:21:37,354
And be able to, you know, Then still
create something original and interesting

333
00:21:37,354 --> 00:21:41,264
enough that people want to be a part
of it And that makes some of those same

334
00:21:41,274 --> 00:21:46,138
musicians want to learn more about it
It's just incredible, once in a lifetime

335
00:21:46,138 --> 00:21:52,688
type stuff and things that I, you know,
frankly, just experienced jealousy, uh,

336
00:21:52,718 --> 00:21:54,518
that this person existed and he had that.

337
00:21:54,588 --> 00:21:55,938
Kyle: You know, it occurs to me.

338
00:21:55,988 --> 00:21:58,028
One of the things is we get.

339
00:21:58,338 --> 00:22:03,328
into the dozens and dozens and approaching
hundreds of episodes of the show.

340
00:22:03,838 --> 00:22:08,358
One of the things that I find us
saying more and more often is like,

341
00:22:08,508 --> 00:22:12,188
I hear what we learned about other
records and this record, right?

342
00:22:12,328 --> 00:22:16,748
It seems like the really great records
connect us to the feelings and ideas

343
00:22:16,748 --> 00:22:18,938
and context of other records, right?

344
00:22:18,938 --> 00:22:21,358
Because that's what music is trying
to do is trying to connect us to the

345
00:22:21,358 --> 00:22:24,333
great Cosmic tapestry between us all.

346
00:22:24,703 --> 00:22:28,623
And I specifically appreciate about
this record that other people recognize

347
00:22:28,643 --> 00:22:30,843
it immediately in Jeff Buckley.

348
00:22:30,893 --> 00:22:35,163
Like it, it has been an afterthought
as you and I digest records most

349
00:22:35,163 --> 00:22:39,103
of the time that that was hopefully
part of the intent, certainly

350
00:22:39,103 --> 00:22:40,753
its intent that we ascribe to.

351
00:22:41,008 --> 00:22:41,838
Great records.

352
00:22:41,838 --> 00:22:46,428
You know, the, the Alice Coltrane's
the Lauren Hills, the D'Angelo's, the

353
00:22:46,698 --> 00:22:50,788
records that I keep talking about over
and over and over again, but Steve

354
00:22:50,788 --> 00:22:55,158
Berkowitz was an A and R and a producer
who went and saw him at the Sinead cafe.

355
00:22:55,498 --> 00:22:56,248
And.

356
00:22:56,718 --> 00:22:58,998
So that he had never met
anybody like Jeff Buckley.

357
00:22:58,998 --> 00:23:02,368
And he said, from the first time he saw
him, he leaned over to the guy he came

358
00:23:02,368 --> 00:23:04,128
with and said, Hal, it's all in there.

359
00:23:04,128 --> 00:23:04,558
Isn't it?

360
00:23:04,658 --> 00:23:06,148
It's just all in there.

361
00:23:06,818 --> 00:23:10,468
And I put it in the notes and I
hadn't really thought about it.

362
00:23:10,938 --> 00:23:13,558
Why that sentence struck
me, but like, that's what.

363
00:23:13,925 --> 00:23:16,895
That, that, that's the common thread
between the episodes of this season.

364
00:23:16,895 --> 00:23:19,435
I think in the ones that were
inadvertently picking month over

365
00:23:19,435 --> 00:23:23,285
month from the calendar is the,
I use the men in black outer

366
00:23:23,285 --> 00:23:25,475
space ball on the cat's necklace.

367
00:23:26,065 --> 00:23:30,425
thing in one of the last two episodes,
but the, like, it's all in there.

368
00:23:30,792 --> 00:23:35,762
Like that is the kind of music that
I, I find you and me reaching for to

369
00:23:35,762 --> 00:23:39,122
your point, whether it is something
you go off and listen to all the time

370
00:23:39,352 --> 00:23:43,442
I think you're going to be a little
bit altered forever by Jeff Buckley.

371
00:23:44,037 --> 00:23:48,437
Just because you have approached the
sensation that it's all in there.

372
00:23:48,447 --> 00:23:52,697
Like you've, you've touched a thing that
has opened a third eye a little bit.

373
00:23:52,767 --> 00:23:57,434
Like it's hard not to talk about
really great densely emotionally

374
00:23:57,434 --> 00:23:59,984
packed records without getting a
little Rick and Morty about it.

375
00:23:59,984 --> 00:24:01,164
Like, Oh shit.

376
00:24:01,164 --> 00:24:05,122
I went into the Jerry simulator and
lived, lived a hundred year life.

377
00:24:05,122 --> 00:24:09,249
And then I pull back and realize
that I'm at Dave and busters.

378
00:24:09,249 --> 00:24:09,566
Yeah.

379
00:24:09,566 --> 00:24:11,154
How did he get 250,

380
00:24:11,259 --> 00:24:16,492
Cliff: I think The reason that what
we've talked about so far doesn't end

381
00:24:16,492 --> 00:24:21,822
up amounting to an academic exercise
from a music student effectively

382
00:24:22,282 --> 00:24:29,482
is partially because of the actual
backstory of how he came to become

383
00:24:29,492 --> 00:24:31,422
the artist that got discovered.

384
00:24:31,932 --> 00:24:35,692
And I think that that's pretty critical
because again, in the short span of

385
00:24:35,692 --> 00:24:39,822
time that he sort of existed as an
artist that people could experience.

386
00:24:40,382 --> 00:24:45,452
A lot of this all happened in a
pretty short period of time that then

387
00:24:45,462 --> 00:24:48,732
resulted in this full length record.

388
00:24:48,732 --> 00:24:51,952
That's, you know, the only version of
this sort of thing that we have from him.

389
00:24:54,422 --> 00:24:56,562
Kyle: 000 highway miles
in 30 years, so to speak?

390
00:24:56,973 --> 00:25:01,643
Cliff: so he's the, he was the son of
singer Tim Buckley, which you would sort

391
00:25:01,643 --> 00:25:08,263
of naturally think is the sort of musical
nepotism thing you see on a fairly regular

392
00:25:08,263 --> 00:25:13,833
basis where even if they're not literally
connected as a parent and child, there's

393
00:25:13,833 --> 00:25:19,153
a sort of gravity that pulls people along
by their last name, uh, or something.

394
00:25:19,333 --> 00:25:19,943
Yeah.

395
00:25:20,288 --> 00:25:20,508
Kyle: Yeah.

396
00:25:20,508 --> 00:25:20,728
Yeah.

397
00:25:21,068 --> 00:25:24,588
And let it be known, Tim Buckley
had his own cult following for

398
00:25:24,588 --> 00:25:25,968
sure in the, in the folk circle.

399
00:25:27,473 --> 00:25:30,763
Cliff: But in Jeff Buckley's case, he was.

400
00:25:31,163 --> 00:25:37,083
estranged from that father, so while
I don't think there's really any

401
00:25:37,083 --> 00:25:40,563
reason for us to just spend a ton
of time trying to either diagnose

402
00:25:40,563 --> 00:25:43,003
or even comment on, uh, what was

403
00:25:43,043 --> 00:25:45,693
Kyle: Don't want to do it any more than
I wanted to do it with Marvin Gaye.

404
00:25:46,573 --> 00:25:47,963
Not a licensed therapist.

405
00:25:48,463 --> 00:25:48,913
Cliff: Nope.

406
00:25:49,513 --> 00:25:55,673
At the same time, what you can
definitely see and hear in interviews

407
00:25:55,673 --> 00:25:58,503
with Jeff Buckley and then in
stories written about him and all

408
00:25:58,523 --> 00:26:03,993
this, like he had a really complex
relationship to this concept, right?

409
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:09,560
And, but then there was a, I mean, the
level of poetic justice that this guy

410
00:26:09,580 --> 00:26:13,180
must have experienced on Earth must
have made him feel like he was in a

411
00:26:13,180 --> 00:26:15,140
video game or something like that.

412
00:26:15,150 --> 00:26:20,174
Cause like, everything that was
equally seemingly terrible and weird

413
00:26:20,434 --> 00:26:25,014
also had a counterpoint that sort
of propelled Jeff Buckley forward.

414
00:26:25,384 --> 00:26:30,954
And so in this case, Jeff Buckley
effectively gets discovered at a

415
00:26:30,954 --> 00:26:36,934
tribute concert for his estranged
father, where he is blowing people

416
00:26:36,934 --> 00:26:42,974
away and they are in real time
realizing, Oh shit, this is his kid.

417
00:26:45,844 --> 00:26:48,094
that's such a scene from a show.

418
00:26:48,104 --> 00:26:50,314
That's, It's so hard to believe that

419
00:26:50,389 --> 00:26:53,929
Kyle: like East Village
Succession a little bit, yeah.

420
00:26:54,479 --> 00:26:58,309
Kent Kindle goes away to rehab
and grows up without Logan.

421
00:26:58,529 --> 00:26:59,549
And here we are!

422
00:27:01,718 --> 00:27:04,258
Cliff: like we would keep hearing
from people who have talked about

423
00:27:04,258 --> 00:27:08,948
him for his entire performing career,
they were Literally blown away.

424
00:27:09,508 --> 00:27:11,158
It w it's all there.

425
00:27:11,598 --> 00:27:15,258
People were having that same experience
over and over again, because he was

426
00:27:15,258 --> 00:27:20,808
a phenomenally good live musician
who you can, you can clearly tell was

427
00:27:20,828 --> 00:27:26,388
comfortable, not just performing, but
really owning and improvising sort of

428
00:27:26,388 --> 00:27:30,038
moment to moment, how everything was
going to come across what he was going

429
00:27:30,038 --> 00:27:32,858
to play, how he was going to flourish.

430
00:27:33,168 --> 00:27:35,008
Everything was a little bit different.

431
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:40,440
I mean, even that oversimplifies some
of the lead up, uh, of, you know,

432
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:46,120
of, of him hitting that curve and
going up towards becoming the person

433
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:49,680
that, that people would recognize
as the inimitable Jeff Buckley.

434
00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:54,499
But even that little vignette, man, like
that struck me because it's at once.

435
00:27:55,099 --> 00:27:58,529
Emotionally intense in a way that
makes me really uncomfortable,

436
00:28:03,049 --> 00:28:07,119
is that not one of the rawest forms
of bravery that I've ever heard?

437
00:28:07,486 --> 00:28:07,736
it's

438
00:28:08,406 --> 00:28:12,296
Kyle: you got to go a level deeper and
here's another piece of great writing

439
00:28:12,316 --> 00:28:16,116
like this dude is raising the vibrations
of everyone he touches because here's

440
00:28:16,116 --> 00:28:20,376
another instance of great writing about
the moment swirls a furiously strummed

441
00:28:20,386 --> 00:28:25,376
guitar and shimmering psychedelic swoops
echoed across the nave as he launched

442
00:28:25,376 --> 00:28:27,826
into I never asked to be your mountain.

443
00:28:28,416 --> 00:28:30,326
From 1967's Hello and Goodbye.

444
00:28:30,526 --> 00:28:32,646
It was one of Tim's most personal songs.

445
00:28:32,846 --> 00:28:35,986
A kiss off to his wife and the
infant son he was leaving behind.

446
00:28:36,256 --> 00:28:39,376
Buckley sang the tune
of his own abandonment.

447
00:28:39,636 --> 00:28:41,026
That shit is haunting.

448
00:28:41,393 --> 00:28:45,193
That's not regular, like, he got up and
he sang a beautiful He got up and he did

449
00:28:45,193 --> 00:28:49,213
Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah, and everyone
loved him, and then that was the famous

450
00:28:49,213 --> 00:28:51,833
song that eventually got used in Shrek.

451
00:28:51,843 --> 00:28:54,026
Like, if that doesn't feel like a
lightning bolt through the middle

452
00:28:54,026 --> 00:28:57,796
of your body, then like, sorry,
don't turn off this episode.

453
00:28:57,816 --> 00:29:01,356
Don't try to listen to this record
and honestly go make sure you

454
00:29:01,356 --> 00:29:03,446
still exist on this mortal coil.

455
00:29:03,716 --> 00:29:06,636
Because, because there's no
way to know that you're real.

456
00:29:06,636 --> 00:29:07,966
If that didn't make you feel anything.

457
00:29:08,333 --> 00:29:09,903
Cliff: Hard with a capital H.

458
00:29:10,023 --> 00:29:11,913
I don't know how else
to describe that, man.

459
00:29:11,968 --> 00:29:16,038
Kyle: As that old, uh, that old
noise rock record or whatever goes

460
00:29:16,098 --> 00:29:17,728
heavier than a death in the family.

461
00:29:17,778 --> 00:29:19,178
Quite, quite literally.

462
00:29:19,713 --> 00:29:20,113
Cliff: Yup.

463
00:29:20,542 --> 00:29:25,082
we'll talk more for sure about
individual songs, aspects of that

464
00:29:25,082 --> 00:29:29,324
kind of stuff that, Stood out to us
as we can easily do with this record.

465
00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:34,660
we sort of have started talking about
now in episodes, since we have tried to

466
00:29:34,660 --> 00:29:39,390
focus on more of listening and absorbing
music as a practice, we always ask like

467
00:29:39,390 --> 00:29:41,130
a few specific questions as we go along.

468
00:29:41,370 --> 00:29:45,910
And so one of them is trying to
take this in fresh, even if you

469
00:29:45,910 --> 00:29:47,580
are aware of the album, right?

470
00:29:47,580 --> 00:29:51,750
Trying to experience it with something
like a beginner's mind so that

471
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,100
you can listen to the things that.

472
00:29:53,295 --> 00:29:57,335
Catch your attention without having
to apply too much energy or take

473
00:29:57,335 --> 00:29:58,955
it too seriously all at once.

474
00:29:59,465 --> 00:30:01,955
I'd like to prompt
myself, if you don't mind,

475
00:30:02,090 --> 00:30:04,410
Kyle: Yeah, I went hard
on this with Botch.

476
00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:07,280
I would really, I was saying, I
wanted to say that I would like

477
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:08,640
to hear from you on it first.

478
00:30:09,058 --> 00:30:13,008
Cliff: I do not think too highly of
myself, I want to be clear, okay, I,

479
00:30:13,008 --> 00:30:18,468
I'm no professional at music, I am no
history teacher and whatever, but we've

480
00:30:18,468 --> 00:30:22,418
been doing this for a while, we take
it pretty seriously, we're pretty good.

481
00:30:22,683 --> 00:30:26,443
At listening to music, we're pretty
good at like finding the things that are

482
00:30:26,443 --> 00:30:30,863
interesting about it and figuring out why
people like it and how it hits people.

483
00:30:30,863 --> 00:30:34,823
And like, a lot of things click into
place pretty quickly at this point,

484
00:30:34,833 --> 00:30:38,353
especially when you practice listening
to music and trying to understand it.

485
00:30:38,603 --> 00:30:42,533
For me, what surprised me is that
I still can't get myself to want to

486
00:30:42,533 --> 00:30:44,263
listen to this record very often.

487
00:30:44,723 --> 00:30:45,503
And I.

488
00:30:45,870 --> 00:30:51,250
Was struck by it this time because it's
a thing that I remembered about this

489
00:30:51,250 --> 00:30:57,980
record and its general existence and
It was sort of you know Filed in my

490
00:30:57,980 --> 00:31:03,040
brain alongside that fascinating photo
that they chose for the album artwork

491
00:31:03,420 --> 00:31:06,602
uh for this particular record, Well,
frankly, makes me laugh a little bit.

492
00:31:07,250 --> 00:31:11,290
Kyle: Somebody, somebody said that people
thought it made him look like Adam Ant.

493
00:31:13,593 --> 00:31:14,083
Cliff: Yeah.

494
00:31:14,593 --> 00:31:14,973
Yeah.

495
00:31:15,583 --> 00:31:21,273
It was a little, a mild version of
cathartic to learn that most everybody at

496
00:31:21,273 --> 00:31:25,293
the record label and other people working
on the record were like, The fuck is this?

497
00:31:25,533 --> 00:31:26,693
When they saw that picture.

498
00:31:26,993 --> 00:31:27,263
Like,

499
00:31:27,693 --> 00:31:30,133
Kyle: I do want to come back to the
cover later because it's got some

500
00:31:30,133 --> 00:31:31,683
cool stories associated with it.

501
00:31:31,683 --> 00:31:31,813
But

502
00:31:31,813 --> 00:31:34,543
yeah, it, it, uh, it's a, it's a thing.

503
00:31:35,203 --> 00:31:35,703
Cliff: We should.

504
00:31:35,853 --> 00:31:41,053
But the point in it is It's hard for
me to get into and this is coming from

505
00:31:41,053 --> 00:31:45,523
a person who listens to a lot of stuff
That is canonically difficult to get

506
00:31:45,533 --> 00:31:51,548
into and here's a record that has almost
universal appeal to like brilliant

507
00:31:51,578 --> 00:31:56,878
musicians and I just I it doesn't
hit the same way to me every time and

508
00:31:56,878 --> 00:32:01,558
so What has surprised me about it in
listening to it so much and listening

509
00:32:01,558 --> 00:32:07,492
to other people talk about it Is finding
a new muscle In my musicality, I guess.

510
00:32:08,190 --> 00:32:12,950
I found a new way to click into this music
without having it match my vibe in the way

511
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:15,090
that I would normally expect things to.

512
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:21,710
And that has given me a way to appreciate
what was going on here, and as I'm

513
00:32:21,710 --> 00:32:25,450
sure we'll talk about some more as
well gave me some things to tune into.

514
00:32:26,050 --> 00:32:28,860
That might have been different,
uh, than I would have picked if I

515
00:32:28,860 --> 00:32:32,560
just like found this really easy
to sort of sink my teeth into,

516
00:32:33,310 --> 00:32:35,720
Kyle: Okay, but I want to, I
want to give you some reassurance

517
00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:37,840
coming from the other side of this.

518
00:32:38,308 --> 00:32:40,798
I think it's probably well
documented on this page.

519
00:32:41,098 --> 00:32:43,918
Podcast now, at least through
Context Clues, I'm always looking

520
00:32:43,918 --> 00:32:46,268
for, how does this make me feel?

521
00:32:46,298 --> 00:32:49,188
What's the vibe or energy of this
thing before I pick up anything

522
00:32:49,218 --> 00:32:51,218
technical or musical about it?

523
00:32:51,558 --> 00:32:54,788
And there's something to be said for the
fact that I knew that I also knew this

524
00:32:54,788 --> 00:33:00,078
record was great, but for a long time,
just had the one song on my iPod and, and

525
00:33:00,078 --> 00:33:03,068
sort of like unconsciously resisted it.

526
00:33:03,428 --> 00:33:09,598
And I think it's something to do
with yeah, it's feel, but it's It's

527
00:33:09,598 --> 00:33:13,585
like, if you're going to get into
it, you get all the way into it and

528
00:33:13,585 --> 00:33:18,985
it's not like it's bright or noisy
or whatever, or it's sad, you know,

529
00:33:18,985 --> 00:33:21,235
unidirectionally emotional or whatever.

530
00:33:21,245 --> 00:33:24,445
It's just truly everything
everywhere all at once.

531
00:33:24,445 --> 00:33:27,065
Like you're the two rocks on the
side of the cliff or whatever.

532
00:33:27,065 --> 00:33:30,595
It makes you sort of feel the
whole universe when you touch it.

533
00:33:31,125 --> 00:33:33,342
That's No matter what, you're striped.

534
00:33:33,372 --> 00:33:34,772
That's hard.

535
00:33:35,122 --> 00:33:40,537
And eventually I realized I'm getting
more into listening to it because of

536
00:33:40,537 --> 00:33:42,657
the stuff that it is opening up in me.

537
00:33:42,657 --> 00:33:48,217
It's like opening a new sort of emotional
chapter in my life or accompanying one.

538
00:33:48,217 --> 00:33:53,057
It's like hitting at a time and place
where that is appropriate and necessary.

539
00:33:53,506 --> 00:33:57,303
there's work required
with this record, right?

540
00:33:57,422 --> 00:33:58,602
it's not casual.

541
00:33:59,210 --> 00:34:00,390
Cliff: That's a good way to put it.

542
00:34:00,610 --> 00:34:01,320
It's not

543
00:34:01,590 --> 00:34:03,431
Kyle: it's not casual at all.

544
00:34:03,431 --> 00:34:07,375
And that doesn't make it like, Burdensome?

545
00:34:07,555 --> 00:34:09,755
There's so much joy in this record.

546
00:34:10,025 --> 00:34:15,435
Like, I feel explosions of joy listening
to his voice and the musicality.

547
00:34:15,695 --> 00:34:18,905
But like, you gotta get after it
when you're listening to this thing.

548
00:34:18,935 --> 00:34:22,665
Like, the joy of music does not
come without a price on grace.

549
00:34:23,065 --> 00:34:27,005
Cliff: So then definitely the
things that stood the farthest

550
00:34:27,015 --> 00:34:29,592
out to me in that context.

551
00:34:29,932 --> 00:34:33,872
One is, like, Let's just
call out the easy one.

552
00:34:33,872 --> 00:34:35,762
Hit the center of the bingo card.

553
00:34:35,992 --> 00:34:40,532
Corpus Christi Carol is a wild
thing to include on this album.

554
00:34:41,473 --> 00:34:42,308
I

555
00:34:42,662 --> 00:34:47,072
Kyle: What's the movie where Will Ferrell,
uh, stands up at the Irish, in the other

556
00:34:47,072 --> 00:34:52,352
guys, Will Ferrell stands up at the
Irish pub and does the old funeral songs?

557
00:34:52,362 --> 00:34:53,492
That's what this felt like.

558
00:34:53,722 --> 00:34:56,362
You're having a conversation with him,
you're Mark Wahlberg, and you're having

559
00:34:56,362 --> 00:34:58,802
a conversation with him, and then
he stands up and faces in the other

560
00:34:58,802 --> 00:35:02,162
direction, does Corpus Christi Carol,
and you're like, what the fuck, man?

561
00:35:03,742 --> 00:35:07,162
First of all, how do you, that's
from the early 16th century.

562
00:35:07,172 --> 00:35:08,622
How do you know that?

563
00:35:09,107 --> 00:35:11,507
Second, wha, wha, why now?

564
00:35:11,874 --> 00:35:14,974
Cliff: what's cool is I don't have an
answer at all, that's what I'm saying,

565
00:35:15,044 --> 00:35:17,564
none of this like, makes any sense to

566
00:35:17,704 --> 00:35:19,834
Kyle: Truly weird flex, but okay.

567
00:35:20,004 --> 00:35:23,156
Cliff: just, yeah,  there's a piece
of chocolate in the middle of your

568
00:35:23,156 --> 00:35:28,387
peanut butter sandwich, just be
prepared, I can't, like, I'm fine

569
00:35:28,447 --> 00:35:32,327
with it, I just like kind of wish
I knew it was coming, know, so,

570
00:35:34,437 --> 00:35:36,727
Because if I don't chew
this right, I'm gonna choke.

571
00:35:38,992 --> 00:35:41,952
Why, like, why is it not the last track?

572
00:35:42,202 --> 00:35:44,472
Kyle: It's a, it's a skit on a rap album.

573
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,896
Cliff: yeah,  they went into left
field, to come from left field, and then

574
00:35:49,896 --> 00:35:54,746
like, built another stadium a few miles
out that way, and went to that left

575
00:35:54,746 --> 00:35:56,936
field, and then came back in with it.

576
00:35:57,625 --> 00:36:01,305
I fundamentally love when people
are weird and unexpected in music.

577
00:36:01,475 --> 00:36:04,095
So even though that makes no sense
to me, I have a tremendous amount

578
00:36:04,105 --> 00:36:06,525
of love and appreciation for the
fact that it happened at all.

579
00:36:06,765 --> 00:36:11,055
Cause like light antagonism is my
love language when it comes to art.

580
00:36:11,335 --> 00:36:12,575
So I love that.

581
00:36:12,911 --> 00:36:19,721
on a much like simpler vibe to catch,
uh, yeah, we'll kind of bring up the

582
00:36:19,721 --> 00:36:23,411
same things we've talked about before,
but like there is a very specific

583
00:36:23,411 --> 00:36:26,041
way that a love for someone like.

584
00:36:26,421 --> 00:36:28,411
Led Zeppelin can play out.

585
00:36:28,831 --> 00:36:34,481
And this is like, it's fun to have
create opportunities that we have in

586
00:36:34,481 --> 00:36:37,971
this podcast to talk about shit that no
one would ever ask us about, but that

587
00:36:37,971 --> 00:36:39,881
we can otherwise eloquently explain.

588
00:36:40,011 --> 00:36:41,891
And you really should
ask me about sometime.

589
00:36:42,151 --> 00:36:43,181
So what does it mean when you

590
00:36:43,406 --> 00:36:44,946
Kyle: You hit, you hit play bro.

591
00:36:44,946 --> 00:36:46,766
You sat down at our booth at the bar.

592
00:36:47,201 --> 00:36:48,161
Cliff: You put in a quarter.

593
00:36:48,161 --> 00:36:49,091
You got to let me finish

594
00:36:49,506 --> 00:36:52,136
Kyle: You, you put in a quarter,
you're someone who cares.

595
00:36:54,608 --> 00:36:59,121
Cliff: Oh no, that's a very good
backup title for my memoir, the

596
00:36:59,121 --> 00:37:05,721
ability to use your voice to imitate
and or interact with guitar lead lines

597
00:37:06,011 --> 00:37:08,991
is like an extremely specific move.

598
00:37:09,221 --> 00:37:15,096
And as part of the reason Led Zeppelin
was good at all, like It was a move

599
00:37:15,176 --> 00:37:19,166
that the guitarist and the vocalist
understood because they were both

600
00:37:19,496 --> 00:37:22,266
phenomenally good at what they were doing.

601
00:37:22,536 --> 00:37:27,866
And like the tone and range of what
you're doing on the guitar and on

602
00:37:27,866 --> 00:37:32,506
the voice, you have to understand the
boundaries of that range in order to

603
00:37:32,506 --> 00:37:34,226
connect them together in a meaningful way.

604
00:37:34,226 --> 00:37:38,266
Like it's both academic and then it
becomes really intuitive, but it's

605
00:37:38,286 --> 00:37:43,006
like, It's not something you hear
very commonly, like if you go to a

606
00:37:43,006 --> 00:37:48,936
show and a blues artist does that move
and sings with their riff, I've never

607
00:37:48,936 --> 00:37:51,966
been in a show where that happened,
where people didn't clap immediately.

608
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:54,659
Kyle: Every time I see
somebody do that, I'm like.

609
00:37:55,884 --> 00:37:57,574
How the hell do you do that?

610
00:37:58,159 --> 00:37:59,409
Cliff: it is like, yeah,

611
00:37:59,494 --> 00:38:03,484
Kyle: How do you even get your
brain I know how hard it is to sing

612
00:38:03,554 --> 00:38:05,494
anything while you play guitar.

613
00:38:05,861 --> 00:38:08,421
How do you make them do the same thing?

614
00:38:09,101 --> 00:38:11,961
I Yeah, it's physics defying for me.

615
00:38:12,566 --> 00:38:14,966
Cliff: yeah, it is truly wild.

616
00:38:14,986 --> 00:38:18,816
But like, that is a way to describe
some of the things that he's doing,

617
00:38:19,126 --> 00:38:23,786
not only throughout several songs,
but then specifically my third eye got

618
00:38:23,786 --> 00:38:25,626
tapped a few times during this record.

619
00:38:25,626 --> 00:38:25,886
Right.

620
00:38:25,886 --> 00:38:30,956
And one of them was on eternal
life and like the moves that he

621
00:38:30,956 --> 00:38:36,706
is doing there vocally immediately
draw yes, Robert plant, right?

622
00:38:36,706 --> 00:38:37,126
So like.

623
00:38:37,371 --> 00:38:37,661
Yeah.

624
00:38:37,661 --> 00:38:41,701
So examples of what we've talked about
so far, you know, whole lot of love,

625
00:38:41,891 --> 00:38:48,741
Achilles last stand, like the vocal moves
in creating something that interacts with

626
00:38:48,741 --> 00:38:52,401
the guitar lines was, you know, a really
common thing, but, you know, it kind of

627
00:38:52,401 --> 00:38:56,871
brought those songs to mind, but the other
person that it brought to mind for me was

628
00:38:56,871 --> 00:38:59,671
a contemporary, which was Chris Cornell.

629
00:39:00,221 --> 00:39:05,171
And it reminded me not only of how
Chris Cornell sang then, but then

630
00:39:05,221 --> 00:39:09,531
again, now I'm just kind of looking
for doorways to push people into that,

631
00:39:09,921 --> 00:39:13,631
that sends them down a trash chute
that lands at Jeff Buckley's grace.

632
00:39:13,771 --> 00:39:19,381
So, so one of those little doors is
is that first audio slave record.

633
00:39:19,781 --> 00:39:21,521
And when Chris Cornell did,

634
00:39:21,526 --> 00:39:24,256
Kyle: That shit's better than it's
got any business to be in, man.

635
00:39:24,256 --> 00:39:24,506
That

636
00:39:24,761 --> 00:39:26,891
Cliff: percent, a hundred percent.

637
00:39:27,281 --> 00:39:27,801
Yeah.

638
00:39:28,021 --> 00:39:28,461
And it's.

639
00:39:28,828 --> 00:39:33,968
One thing that really twisted my noodle
in a fun way was understanding that that

640
00:39:33,968 --> 00:39:38,918
record, that first Audioslave record,
came out only eight years after Grace.

641
00:39:39,323 --> 00:39:39,623
Kyle: Mm.

642
00:39:39,623 --> 00:39:40,602
Heh

643
00:39:41,028 --> 00:39:44,418
Cliff: but, point being, songs from
that record that especially folks

644
00:39:44,458 --> 00:39:49,433
would probably recognize right
now, like, Like a Stone the way Go

645
00:39:49,443 --> 00:39:51,443
back now and listen to that song.

646
00:39:51,453 --> 00:39:55,463
If you're at all peaked, uh, in your
interest by what we're talking about

647
00:39:55,473 --> 00:39:59,803
here, because what you can do is go back
and listen to Chris Cornell singing.

648
00:39:59,803 --> 00:40:02,843
Not only, that song rips like
his, the whole thing rips.

649
00:40:02,843 --> 00:40:06,933
It's a very, very good song and
he's an incredible singer, but the

650
00:40:06,943 --> 00:40:12,623
flourishes that he'll do with his
voice match things Tom Morello does

651
00:40:12,643 --> 00:40:16,143
in the solo later on, which is itself.

652
00:40:16,253 --> 00:40:21,243
a really cool move and a neat
example because like I truly

653
00:40:21,243 --> 00:40:22,253
don't mean this disrespectfully.

654
00:40:22,253 --> 00:40:28,563
Tom Morello is not a very good guitar
player so like being able to find a way to

655
00:40:28,773 --> 00:40:30,153
Kyle: he has a masterclass.

656
00:40:30,403 --> 00:40:30,543
Congratulations.

657
00:40:30,593 --> 00:40:30,653
Thank you.

658
00:40:31,008 --> 00:40:33,377
Have

659
00:40:33,473 --> 00:40:35,083
Cliff: he's really good at effects so

660
00:40:35,258 --> 00:40:37,598
Kyle: you tried unplugging
it and plugging it back in?

661
00:40:37,922 --> 00:40:40,162
Cliff: I'm not saying I'm better
than he is I'm just saying if you

662
00:40:40,162 --> 00:40:43,982
listen to the like functional like
musicality of what he's playing it's

663
00:40:43,982 --> 00:40:45,842
not especially complex most of the time.

664
00:40:46,222 --> 00:40:48,882
And that worked well for rage
against the machine and all that.

665
00:40:49,182 --> 00:40:54,412
But point being like that song, like,
like a stone or even I am the highway,

666
00:40:54,722 --> 00:40:59,462
other songs where Chris Cornell is
truly taking the lead of melody.

667
00:40:59,702 --> 00:41:05,412
If you listen for it, you'll hear
another extremely talented vocalist.

668
00:41:06,252 --> 00:41:10,952
Like intuiting how the song is going
to eventually sound or what little

669
00:41:10,952 --> 00:41:15,272
lines and hooks will come out of the
guitar parts later and introducing them.

670
00:41:15,487 --> 00:41:18,777
And one offs throughout the
verses and things like that.

671
00:41:19,187 --> 00:41:22,857
So I think it's just like a
really cool thing to not only

672
00:41:22,857 --> 00:41:24,097
notice for the first time.

673
00:41:24,297 --> 00:41:27,807
But then as we'll talk some more
about, it's something that you can sort

674
00:41:27,807 --> 00:41:32,197
of apply your focus in and draw out
some different parts of this record

675
00:41:32,197 --> 00:41:33,392
that you might not otherwise hear.

676
00:41:33,977 --> 00:41:36,657
Kyle: Eternal Life is my
favorite song on the record.

677
00:41:36,737 --> 00:41:39,827
And it's probably weird to be
like the one heavy song is my

678
00:41:39,837 --> 00:41:40,957
favorite song on the record.

679
00:41:41,467 --> 00:41:46,627
But I thought immediately like this
could have been a later Soundgarden song.

680
00:41:47,117 --> 00:41:51,437
I also appreciate the Audioslave
connection because, you know, Rage being

681
00:41:51,437 --> 00:41:58,487
so into funk there's a very, like, funky,
skronky thing to the way that they play.

682
00:41:58,767 --> 00:42:03,810
Like, the bass is almost almost
less Clay Pooley a little bit.

683
00:42:04,081 --> 00:42:08,261
and one piece of trivia that I just
like cannot get out of my mind is in

684
00:42:08,261 --> 00:42:12,841
the late 80s, one of the many hard
rock heavy metal bands that, that

685
00:42:12,961 --> 00:42:18,561
Jeff Buckley played with in LA had
Danny Carey, a future Tool fame in it.

686
00:42:18,911 --> 00:42:19,901
So like he was.

687
00:42:20,601 --> 00:42:25,121
Light years apart from that world and
I think actively tried to distance

688
00:42:25,121 --> 00:42:30,901
himself from the the machismo of all
of that stuff Happening, but he still

689
00:42:30,901 --> 00:42:34,211
had an interesting intersection points
with it and you can see it in eternal

690
00:42:34,211 --> 00:42:36,631
life I'd like to me eternal life.

691
00:42:37,521 --> 00:42:43,513
I'd know this was not his intent
at all But it's it's a like I could

692
00:42:43,513 --> 00:42:50,781
have done that kind of music and been
successful but y'all can't do You

693
00:42:51,148 --> 00:42:52,628
Lover, you should have come over.

694
00:42:53,058 --> 00:42:53,458
He did.

695
00:42:53,488 --> 00:42:54,718
He did say.

696
00:42:54,957 --> 00:42:56,337
this is an angry song.

697
00:42:56,437 --> 00:42:59,297
Like he, he did a lot of
introductions of his songs and stuff.

698
00:42:59,297 --> 00:43:03,457
He's, he's a pretty good stage talker,
which I think is the thing you and I have

699
00:43:03,457 --> 00:43:06,697
talked about, maybe not on the podcast,
but just like at shows, especially

700
00:43:06,697 --> 00:43:11,197
since the pandemic, people don't really
do stage banter much at all anymore.

701
00:43:11,197 --> 00:43:13,087
And when they do, they don't do it well.

702
00:43:13,507 --> 00:43:17,257
Uh, go to Toastmasters, bands, singers,
please let's, let's bring back the

703
00:43:17,257 --> 00:43:23,137
art of, of stage talking and not the
hardcore, here's 30 minutes on PETA or

704
00:43:23,462 --> 00:43:23,742
Cliff: Yeah.

705
00:43:23,782 --> 00:43:24,262
No, no, no.

706
00:43:24,367 --> 00:43:24,627
Kyle: yeah,

707
00:43:24,772 --> 00:43:25,512
Cliff: you're tuning.

708
00:43:25,522 --> 00:43:25,842
Thank

709
00:43:25,887 --> 00:43:29,317
Kyle: yeah, yeah, yeah, not a let's
bow our heads in prayer thing for

710
00:43:29,327 --> 00:43:30,807
20 minutes before the last song.

711
00:43:30,852 --> 00:43:32,572
Cliff: Yeah, this isn't
Wolves in the Throne Room.

712
00:43:32,582 --> 00:43:33,022
Let's keep

713
00:43:33,137 --> 00:43:33,377
Kyle: Yeah.

714
00:43:34,007 --> 00:43:37,737
Uh, he said of eternal
life this is an angry song.

715
00:43:37,737 --> 00:43:40,717
Life's too short and too complicated
for people behind desk and people

716
00:43:40,717 --> 00:43:44,887
behind mask to be ruining other people's
lives, initiating force against other

717
00:43:44,887 --> 00:43:47,917
people's lives on the basis of their
income, their color, their class, their

718
00:43:47,917 --> 00:43:49,357
religious beliefs, their whatever.

719
00:43:49,767 --> 00:43:56,197
And this was a 93, 94, he was saying stuff
like this and then launching into here's

720
00:43:56,207 --> 00:43:58,447
Soundgarden Zeppelini sounding song.

721
00:43:58,797 --> 00:44:00,747
Eternal life and like really ripping.

722
00:44:00,747 --> 00:44:06,288
Like I, I I have a playlist, you know,
that is almost a thousand songs large now.

723
00:44:06,728 --> 00:44:11,378
That is my version of a Tony Hawks
pro skater game soundtrack that I

724
00:44:11,378 --> 00:44:12,908
just keep adding to and expanding to.

725
00:44:12,913 --> 00:44:15,218
So like what stuff that feels
good for kicking and pushing

726
00:44:15,308 --> 00:44:16,028
out there in the world.

727
00:44:16,558 --> 00:44:21,978
And in the process of spinning up
preparations for this episode, I

728
00:44:21,978 --> 00:44:23,778
put Eternal life on that playlist,

729
00:44:24,145 --> 00:44:24,785
Cliff: Incredible.

730
00:44:24,870 --> 00:44:26,730
Kyle: I would not do for any
of the other songs on this

731
00:44:26,785 --> 00:44:32,175
Cliff: I was Yep, that's exactly
where my brain had started to go, was

732
00:44:32,225 --> 00:44:34,505
Kyle: it's, unless it's
skateboarding to a girl's

733
00:44:34,515 --> 00:44:34,715
Cliff: Yep.

734
00:44:37,299 --> 00:44:38,939
To get myself in the mood.

735
00:44:39,249 --> 00:44:39,999
Yeah, sure.

736
00:44:41,706 --> 00:44:44,876
as always, I love our earnestness
about how this record hits us, but

737
00:44:45,166 --> 00:44:50,536
give me an idea of a context or
two where this one works for you.

738
00:44:50,736 --> 00:44:54,846
Like, when do, when do you
want to put it on now as a non

739
00:44:54,866 --> 00:44:57,226
skateboarding, non teenage adult

740
00:44:57,306 --> 00:45:00,906
Kyle: In the fucking real
world, in, in the, in being a

741
00:45:00,906 --> 00:45:02,916
spirit in the material world.

742
00:45:03,296 --> 00:45:08,326
We, we were texting about this, but like
my new deeply held belief is that this

743
00:45:08,326 --> 00:45:11,486
record is an antidote to to use another.

744
00:45:11,819 --> 00:45:15,299
Parlor parlance that's becoming
more common in 2024 quickly weird,

745
00:45:15,369 --> 00:45:19,709
like everything's weird and online
and disconnected and not physical.

746
00:45:20,039 --> 00:45:22,739
And I think a lot of our angst comes
from just not being aware of that.

747
00:45:23,144 --> 00:45:27,584
With people and in love with people
and the physicality and the, and the

748
00:45:27,594 --> 00:45:32,994
tactileness of being alive and smashing
against senses in the real world,

749
00:45:33,034 --> 00:45:38,134
being at a bar, seeing faces, hugging
necks, drinking cold beer, like just

750
00:45:38,144 --> 00:45:39,984
do doing things out in the world.

751
00:45:40,054 --> 00:45:45,094
As they say online, touching
grass, proverbially.

752
00:45:45,474 --> 00:45:47,494
So if you.

753
00:45:47,704 --> 00:45:51,274
If you are in a place in your life where
you are trying to touch more grass or you

754
00:45:51,794 --> 00:45:56,744
are depressed and you need an inspiration
to go out in the world and feel more

755
00:45:56,744 --> 00:46:02,587
things and fall in love with being alive
again like touching grass is great.

756
00:46:02,597 --> 00:46:06,607
But if you're in a place where you
can't really necessarily do that yet

757
00:46:07,077 --> 00:46:09,057
Cliff, I thought you put it beautifully.

758
00:46:09,057 --> 00:46:12,377
You said this feels like the
quintessential aimless driving record.

759
00:46:12,847 --> 00:46:17,327
And I think there's a connection to
Qawwali music, which we'll get into

760
00:46:17,327 --> 00:46:22,347
in a second and like meditation and
the practice of existing more deeply.

761
00:46:22,414 --> 00:46:27,861
but like, I can't encourage enough to
use this as maybe a vessel, a springboard

762
00:46:27,871 --> 00:46:29,391
to like, get out there and live.

763
00:46:29,421 --> 00:46:33,551
Go drive to this record, but
just go, go like have the next.

764
00:46:34,041 --> 00:46:36,271
Six months of your life be the best.

765
00:46:36,301 --> 00:46:40,331
We're sensing a vibe shift in, in the
country and in the world right now.

766
00:46:40,661 --> 00:46:45,151
And maybe you haven't gotten it personally
to trickle down into your own life.

767
00:46:45,191 --> 00:46:48,131
And hopefully this can be
like a jolt of a moment.

768
00:46:48,141 --> 00:46:50,031
I could never in good conscience.

769
00:46:50,616 --> 00:46:54,036
Get on the internet and tell anyone
to like, exercise or drink more

770
00:46:54,036 --> 00:46:57,316
water or do healthy habits or
whatever to turn their life around.

771
00:46:57,316 --> 00:47:01,646
But I can point you to a fucking record
that will maybe lead you to some of

772
00:47:01,646 --> 00:47:03,396
those other good and beautiful things.

773
00:47:03,396 --> 00:47:09,046
Like if, if you want to try to make some
memories and get to being the person out

774
00:47:09,046 --> 00:47:13,556
there in the real world with people that
you love, loving you back, maybe this

775
00:47:13,556 --> 00:47:15,146
is a small first step to get you there.

776
00:47:15,513 --> 00:47:18,193
Cliff: That makes me want
to just say out loud.

777
00:47:18,253 --> 00:47:23,843
Maybe it's a good soundtrack for
your next quote, stupid little mental

778
00:47:23,843 --> 00:47:28,123
health walk that you may be taking
to get yourself out of your head.

779
00:47:28,353 --> 00:47:32,263
I love that people started referring
to it as that and hearing you

780
00:47:32,263 --> 00:47:33,793
sort of describe it that way.

781
00:47:34,313 --> 00:47:39,421
Makes me want to put it in the context
of, well, you got to start as early

782
00:47:39,421 --> 00:47:43,241
as you can in the day to catch moments
of beauty and optimism before they

783
00:47:43,241 --> 00:47:47,151
get ruined by the experiences that
you'll inevitably have after that.

784
00:47:47,641 --> 00:47:51,031
So this is kind of making me want to like,
I wonder if this could be like a wake up

785
00:47:51,101 --> 00:47:53,791
type, a deal for me or one that's like.

786
00:47:54,201 --> 00:47:58,021
Just really early on before things
have sort of settled in or you've

787
00:47:58,021 --> 00:47:59,481
had to get started on something.

788
00:47:59,991 --> 00:48:05,161
As someone who's currently healing
myself through literally going

789
00:48:05,161 --> 00:48:09,981
outside and looking at a mountain
this is uh, this is giving me some

790
00:48:09,981 --> 00:48:11,311
even better ways to think about it.

791
00:48:11,311 --> 00:48:11,701
Maybe

792
00:48:12,041 --> 00:48:15,401
Kyle: I am more of a purge at
the end of the day, put on this

793
00:48:15,401 --> 00:48:17,571
record and come alive at night.

794
00:48:17,611 --> 00:48:20,771
Like, you know, like your second
day, your real life starts at dusk.

795
00:48:21,201 --> 00:48:25,401
But either of those work just depending
on who you are physiologically and

796
00:48:25,401 --> 00:48:26,871
what your life rhythms look like.

797
00:48:27,079 --> 00:48:34,379
Cliff: So I think talking just a little
bit about how Jeff Buckley thought about

798
00:48:34,379 --> 00:48:39,999
his own work at this point in time would
be helpful and it'll, it's nice because

799
00:48:39,999 --> 00:48:46,221
it's, Well, we're well past the point
together where, uh, we fully understand

800
00:48:46,221 --> 00:48:50,401
that one another finds the topic of
death just a little bit funny, honestly.

801
00:48:50,641 --> 00:48:53,501
So I kind of keep laughing about
like, it's cool to be able to talk

802
00:48:53,511 --> 00:48:56,111
about this because there's not too
much information because, you know.

803
00:48:56,611 --> 00:48:57,191
But,

804
00:48:57,596 --> 00:48:59,336
Kyle: It's the only universal language.

805
00:48:59,561 --> 00:49:00,231
Cliff: that's right.

806
00:49:00,531 --> 00:49:07,166
But one of the reasons that that's
not just darkly funny to me is the way

807
00:49:07,166 --> 00:49:12,476
that he expressed his intent in this
moment is itself really beautiful.

808
00:49:12,846 --> 00:49:17,006
In in, you know, he, like you mentioned,
he was pretty comfortable talking

809
00:49:17,006 --> 00:49:21,386
off the cuff and giving interviewers
interesting answers and all that.

810
00:49:21,406 --> 00:49:27,326
But in one of them where he was talking
about this concept of grace, like kind

811
00:49:27,326 --> 00:49:29,986
of what is this album conceptually?

812
00:49:31,416 --> 00:49:37,731
He instead sort of described What grace
as a concept meant to him in a little bit

813
00:49:37,731 --> 00:49:41,431
more of an abstract sense, which I guess
the musicality is supposed to express.

814
00:49:41,841 --> 00:49:47,371
Um, but he said, quote, the best art comes
from artists who have an unending life

815
00:49:47,381 --> 00:49:49,661
or death urgency to speak their heart.

816
00:49:50,121 --> 00:49:53,821
And as those artists grow older,
there's a real serenity to that

817
00:49:53,961 --> 00:49:58,141
art and a great relaxation and an
ease that's beautiful to watch.

818
00:49:58,301 --> 00:49:59,651
And that's what I want.

819
00:49:59,821 --> 00:50:01,301
That's what I call grace.

820
00:50:02,041 --> 00:50:03,971
And, on, on top of the.

821
00:50:04,446 --> 00:50:08,106
Eerie ness of him speaking of himself
in a future that he would never

822
00:50:08,106 --> 00:50:10,876
come to inhabit, unfortunately.

823
00:50:11,296 --> 00:50:15,356
At the same time, like, he gives
us the gift of pointing out pretty

824
00:50:15,366 --> 00:50:19,706
immediately that he feels that he
has a tremendous amount of urgency

825
00:50:19,906 --> 00:50:24,046
to speak from his own heart, and that
what he's expressing here on Grace

826
00:50:24,056 --> 00:50:26,466
is an encapsulation of that urgency.

827
00:50:27,186 --> 00:50:33,083
Kyle: He also called himself a fleeting
memory, which to me speaks to a bit

828
00:50:33,083 --> 00:50:35,263
of prescience around the whole thing.

829
00:50:35,963 --> 00:50:38,933
Yeah he also described himself
as an imperceptible fleeting

830
00:50:38,933 --> 00:50:40,423
memory, which I think speaks to

831
00:50:41,103 --> 00:50:41,893
Cliff: Oh my god.

832
00:50:42,813 --> 00:50:43,283
Really?

833
00:50:43,636 --> 00:50:46,026
Seriously, he said that about himself?

834
00:50:46,411 --> 00:50:48,106
Kyle: Um, pretty prescient.

835
00:50:48,126 --> 00:50:51,027
I don't want to be like this guy
knew he was going to die because

836
00:50:51,027 --> 00:50:52,557
I don't think that's true at all.

837
00:50:52,897 --> 00:50:57,457
But it's, that's just a very cool
way to describe your artistic intent.

838
00:50:57,467 --> 00:51:00,317
He said, do you ever have one of those
memories where you think you remember a

839
00:51:00,317 --> 00:51:04,097
taste or a feel of something, maybe an
object, but the feeling is so bizarre

840
00:51:04,097 --> 00:51:05,507
and imperceptible that you can't.

841
00:51:05,772 --> 00:51:07,062
You just can't quite get a hold of it.

842
00:51:07,062 --> 00:51:08,182
It drives you crazy.

843
00:51:08,482 --> 00:51:10,212
That's my musical aesthetic.

844
00:51:10,272 --> 00:51:12,812
Just this imperceptible fleeting memory.

845
00:51:13,132 --> 00:51:16,332
The beauty of it now is that I can
record it onto a disc or play it live.

846
00:51:16,392 --> 00:51:17,722
It's entirely surreal.

847
00:51:17,942 --> 00:51:20,512
It's like, there's a guard at the gate
of your memory and you're not supposed

848
00:51:20,512 --> 00:51:24,012
to remember certain things because you
can only obtain the full experience

849
00:51:24,272 --> 00:51:26,122
by completely going under its power.

850
00:51:26,312 --> 00:51:27,752
You can be destroyed or scarred.

851
00:51:27,762 --> 00:51:28,482
You don't know.

852
00:51:28,572 --> 00:51:29,572
It's like dying.

853
00:51:29,939 --> 00:51:31,299
So maybe we like Jeff Buckley.

854
00:51:31,299 --> 00:51:35,229
Maybe it just boils down to the fact that
we all, uh, like thinking about death

855
00:51:35,449 --> 00:51:38,189
in, in like a healthy memento mori way

856
00:51:38,556 --> 00:51:42,646
Cliff: That is a much, uh, more
mature way of saying what, yes,

857
00:51:42,686 --> 00:51:44,296
I was trying to point out too.

858
00:51:44,296 --> 00:51:47,606
Like, he, he's unafraid to talk about it.

859
00:51:48,056 --> 00:51:49,186
And he's unafraid to

860
00:51:49,341 --> 00:51:49,941
Kyle: or, or

861
00:51:49,941 --> 00:51:50,281
to do

862
00:51:50,431 --> 00:51:50,721
Cliff: Yeah,

863
00:51:52,653 --> 00:51:53,523
we assume so.

864
00:51:54,105 --> 00:51:58,357
but everything is a little, both
interesting and has a comic relief

865
00:51:58,357 --> 00:52:02,844
nature to it, which is part of why it
all feels like it's intertwined with

866
00:52:02,844 --> 00:52:04,474
this concept of death in general.

867
00:52:04,494 --> 00:52:04,924
Cause that's, that's the point.

868
00:52:05,539 --> 00:52:09,739
It always feels like two sides of a
thing, a deathly serious thing and a

869
00:52:09,739 --> 00:52:11,629
deathly funny thing happening at once.

870
00:52:12,009 --> 00:52:16,249
And so to that end, Jeff Buckley,
the immense talent that we've talked

871
00:52:16,249 --> 00:52:19,469
about so far, and have tried to heap
as much praise as humanly possible on

872
00:52:19,469 --> 00:52:24,602
it, Still taken by bad relationships,
like still obsessed with, particular

873
00:52:24,602 --> 00:52:30,292
relationships, not working out, writing
love songs, sad songs, emotionally whiny

874
00:52:30,322 --> 00:52:35,852
things, uh, about their relationship
and producing that into an album that

875
00:52:35,852 --> 00:52:40,022
somehow once again connects with, you
know, an entire generation of people.

876
00:52:40,632 --> 00:52:46,982
Despite being about this ostensibly base
topic, that really captured me again

877
00:52:46,992 --> 00:52:51,312
here, because speaking of things that
are well documented in this podcast

878
00:52:51,542 --> 00:52:54,082
is my disdain for lyrics in general.

879
00:52:54,242 --> 00:52:58,962
If I could get rid of vocals in
like 90 percent of music, I would.

880
00:52:59,342 --> 00:53:02,712
So for me to come to a record
like this and be like, so.

881
00:53:03,079 --> 00:53:07,239
Okay, but if everyone could do
it to the degree that he was

882
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,159
doing it, maybe I'd be more okay

883
00:53:09,269 --> 00:53:09,959
Kyle: Totally.

884
00:53:10,549 --> 00:53:11,099
Totally.

885
00:53:11,519 --> 00:53:12,899
I made the note, stop me.

886
00:53:12,899 --> 00:53:16,809
If you've heard this before, it's not
unfair to say this record was hugely

887
00:53:16,809 --> 00:53:22,359
inspired by a woman like a specific woman,
but also the divine feminine more broadly

888
00:53:22,769 --> 00:53:30,614
and It just, once again, reinforces things
this beautiful and powerful do not happen

889
00:53:30,664 --> 00:53:35,924
without women, like not to be too Helen
of Troy about it, but men simply cannot

890
00:53:35,934 --> 00:53:38,444
conceive of things like this on their own.

891
00:53:38,444 --> 00:53:40,134
So, shout out to women.

892
00:53:40,134 --> 00:53:44,882
Thanks once again for everything,
like, like literally everything,

893
00:53:44,882 --> 00:53:46,282
including the fact that we're here

894
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:49,590
Cliff: So it's always back and
forth in the seesaw of like,

895
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:50,960
it's simple, it's complicated.

896
00:53:50,980 --> 00:53:52,550
So yeah, all those things are true.

897
00:53:52,891 --> 00:53:57,041
And he came to this one with an extreme
sense of urgency, and yet he's telling

898
00:53:57,041 --> 00:54:01,261
a classic story, and yet he's doing so
in a new and unexpected way, with an

899
00:54:01,271 --> 00:54:05,001
incredible level of artistry and detail,
and yet at the same time, it's still

900
00:54:05,031 --> 00:54:08,661
mostly a set of recognizably 90s songs.

901
00:54:08,909 --> 00:54:13,304
But yet, all of those things were
true, and on top of it, The urgency

902
00:54:13,304 --> 00:54:17,234
was channeled through into the literal
logistics of recording the record, um,

903
00:54:17,244 --> 00:54:22,954
because he assembled this band weeks
before they started recording this record

904
00:54:23,289 --> 00:54:26,069
Kyle: said they had played
together like 10 times.

905
00:54:26,249 --> 00:54:32,869
Total, before they went into the
studio, which is like insane, insane,

906
00:54:33,236 --> 00:54:38,883
Cliff: and certainly that was helped
along by Apparently Jeff Buckley

907
00:54:38,883 --> 00:54:42,943
coming with, you know, one of those
folks who comes with 1 million ideas,

908
00:54:43,283 --> 00:54:46,793
uh, and can just sit down and let
things kind of flow out of them.

909
00:54:47,103 --> 00:54:50,703
Uh, and so, uh, I'm sure that that
guided other people along, but I also

910
00:54:50,703 --> 00:54:53,893
found it really fascinating to listen
to, uh, like I caught an interview

911
00:54:53,893 --> 00:54:57,583
with the drummer from the record, just
listening to him sort of talk about

912
00:54:57,643 --> 00:54:58,963
the way that they were able to just.

913
00:54:59,258 --> 00:55:05,448
Feel comfortable with Jeff Buckley in that
moment and kind of absorb some of that

914
00:55:05,788 --> 00:55:11,208
unafraid energy to what they were writing
and how they use that to introduce,

915
00:55:11,448 --> 00:55:16,105
you know, very simple, simple isn't
even the right word, deceptively simple

916
00:55:16,205 --> 00:55:21,155
complexity into the rhythm, into little
flourishes as the songs would go along.

917
00:55:21,155 --> 00:55:25,605
Like it drove people to be creative,
but in a way that never somehow.

918
00:55:25,875 --> 00:55:30,535
Took them too far away from the emotional
center that everyone connected back into.

919
00:55:30,785 --> 00:55:37,065
And that itself is just a mind blowing
piece of music to come out of the group

920
00:55:37,065 --> 00:55:40,605
of people who don't have enough experience
to do something this emotionally

921
00:55:41,035 --> 00:55:45,485
Kyle: So another plug for the 33
and a third book detailed in that

922
00:55:45,485 --> 00:55:49,515
book is the studio set up Andy
Wallace at the boards for this one

923
00:55:49,595 --> 00:55:51,565
incredible discography on that guy.

924
00:55:51,595 --> 00:55:53,965
Most of which looks nothing like this.

925
00:55:54,275 --> 00:55:57,915
If you like chocolate starfish and the
hotdog flavored water and Lincoln Park's

926
00:55:57,915 --> 00:56:02,535
hybrid theory, um, but also Nirvana's
nevermind probably his most famous

927
00:56:02,535 --> 00:56:06,565
credit, like Andy Wallace is the king
of the nineties sound, I guess, so to

928
00:56:06,565 --> 00:56:11,695
speak as of May, 2021, over 120 million
album units have been sold worldwide

929
00:56:11,695 --> 00:56:13,235
that contain a credit to Wallace.

930
00:56:13,235 --> 00:56:17,509
So, uh, dude has his stamp on all
the big sounding records of, of

931
00:56:17,509 --> 00:56:22,305
a 10 or 15 year period and still
very, very much going strong.

932
00:56:22,672 --> 00:56:23,662
So there were three.

933
00:56:23,917 --> 00:56:26,877
Three spaces set up at the
studio in Woodstock, New York.

934
00:56:27,207 --> 00:56:31,077
There was one for loud music, I
swear to God, one for loud music,

935
00:56:31,087 --> 00:56:35,547
one for quiet music, and then a cafe
emulating setup that was just Buckley

936
00:56:35,547 --> 00:56:38,227
with a close mic and a guitar plugin.

937
00:56:38,687 --> 00:56:43,847
And my, everything stayed mic'd the
whole time and they just sort of

938
00:56:43,847 --> 00:56:48,117
cycled between spaces as they got
inspiration and wanted to work on a vibe.

939
00:56:48,477 --> 00:56:53,428
So it stayed very live and focused
on the emotion because, Andy

940
00:56:53,428 --> 00:56:55,178
Wallace helped design it that way.

941
00:56:55,198 --> 00:57:01,518
So a bit of studio genius to draw
the most out of the spontaneity of

942
00:57:01,528 --> 00:57:04,688
these players playing together, like
just a little, a small, but large

943
00:57:04,688 --> 00:57:06,088
note on this record that I love,

944
00:57:07,268 --> 00:57:12,848
Cliff: I didn't realize that, but that
connects directly in my mind to when.

945
00:57:13,278 --> 00:57:18,208
Folks who were participating
in or attending Jeff Buckley's

946
00:57:18,218 --> 00:57:20,885
weekly shows at a coffee shop.

947
00:57:21,315 --> 00:57:25,535
Like, what they talked about was how
he took ownership of that night and

948
00:57:25,535 --> 00:57:26,855
everyone was really comfortable with it.

949
00:57:26,995 --> 00:57:30,460
And what that meant was It's not
just that every set was unique,

950
00:57:30,590 --> 00:57:32,750
like the entire night was unique.

951
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:34,920
They'd say that sometimes
he'd play a normal set.

952
00:57:35,020 --> 00:57:38,280
Sometimes he'd stop in the middle
and go grab a beer or a coffee.

953
00:57:38,370 --> 00:57:41,990
Sometimes you just go talk to people
and come back later or experiment with

954
00:57:41,990 --> 00:57:44,970
something new or play something for
the first time in front of people.

955
00:57:45,190 --> 00:57:50,520
Like it was a real, like, I'm just going
to move myself around this space and do

956
00:57:50,530 --> 00:57:52,380
kind of whatever comes to me at the time.

957
00:57:53,090 --> 00:57:58,565
And to be able to trust that you have
an audience at that level, That early

958
00:57:58,565 --> 00:58:05,075
in your career is pretty incredible to
begin with, but I love that story that

959
00:58:05,075 --> 00:58:09,214
you just brought about the recording
process of it, because like, another

960
00:58:09,224 --> 00:58:15,414
detail fills into the place of like,
okay, he, like he was creating contexts

961
00:58:15,424 --> 00:58:20,334
for him to do whatever thing this was
that was cranking out these emotionally

962
00:58:20,334 --> 00:58:25,714
intense songs and, or, you know, well
that middle english hymnal in the middle

963
00:58:27,292 --> 00:58:32,075
Kyle: and again, credit to Rebecca
Moore on this because, she is the

964
00:58:32,075 --> 00:58:36,005
daughter of a famous photographer
and was like of the avant garde.

965
00:58:36,300 --> 00:58:37,320
In New York City.

966
00:58:37,620 --> 00:58:43,900
And, uh, I think what interested him about
her was that she was key to a lot of those

967
00:58:43,900 --> 00:58:46,170
scenes, one of which was called Fluxus.

968
00:58:46,650 --> 00:58:50,630
And it was all about,
like, performance context.

969
00:58:51,043 --> 00:58:54,647
And in the audience involvement
in it being as important as the

970
00:58:54,657 --> 00:58:56,787
content of the performance itself.

971
00:58:57,077 --> 00:59:00,387
So I think he was always thinking
about context and that was really

972
00:59:00,387 --> 00:59:03,157
drawn out in the Sine Cafe stuff.

973
00:59:03,617 --> 00:59:08,657
You can pretend you're Miles Davis and
turn your back on the audience 99 percent

974
00:59:08,667 --> 00:59:15,007
of the time as much as you want, but Like
without context of the place and the thing

975
00:59:15,387 --> 00:59:17,207
it's, you're a tree falling in the forest.

976
00:59:17,207 --> 00:59:18,947
Like what does any of your art matter?

977
00:59:18,947 --> 00:59:22,267
If it doesn't bump up against
the world, it's expressing

978
00:59:22,267 --> 00:59:23,487
something about in some way.

979
00:59:23,687 --> 00:59:26,897
And he himself was quoted as
saying, music is so many things.

980
00:59:26,907 --> 00:59:28,117
It's not just the performer.

981
00:59:28,117 --> 00:59:31,467
It's the audience and the architecture of
the song and each builds off the other.

982
00:59:31,867 --> 00:59:32,307
And I think.

983
00:59:32,362 --> 00:59:37,892
The Sinead and the moments in the studio
were really about building, destroying,

984
00:59:37,912 --> 00:59:43,252
rebuilding, uh, and just, just scaffolding
musical ideas in as many different ways

985
00:59:43,252 --> 00:59:45,702
as possible, which is that's what I love.

986
00:59:46,662 --> 00:59:52,932
about music and just creative arts
in general is, uh, you're just,

987
00:59:53,299 --> 00:59:56,949
you're just figuring like living is
just about the process of living.

988
00:59:57,329 --> 00:59:58,009
You know what I mean?

989
00:59:58,019 --> 01:00:01,269
You're just trying to build a new,
a new way to go about your day.

990
01:00:01,739 --> 01:00:05,029
Cause otherwise you're just
doing TPS reports all day.

991
01:00:06,693 --> 01:00:07,713
Cliff: So actually, okay.

992
01:00:07,713 --> 01:00:14,340
So us talking about putting himself
in the context that is the right

993
01:00:14,940 --> 01:00:17,630
feeling energy, whatever to do this.

994
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:23,227
So let's add that to what you were
also mentioning earlier about the

995
01:00:23,227 --> 01:00:27,627
way that he pipes information into
things for lack of a better term.

996
01:00:28,057 --> 01:00:31,897
So I think it'd be good to just
mention the covers themselves on

997
01:00:31,897 --> 01:00:34,057
the album, because those like.

998
01:00:34,377 --> 01:00:41,684
More so than nearly any other artists that
we have or will talk about, the covers,

999
01:00:41,714 --> 01:00:45,014
the act of covering is meaningful here.

1000
01:00:45,544 --> 01:00:51,444
Um, much more in the vein
of the blues tradition.

1001
01:00:51,654 --> 01:00:57,194
I am not saying that they are the same,
but I am saying that he is channeling

1002
01:00:57,634 --> 01:01:03,454
that Lineage in the same way that once
again, bands like Led Zeppelin were like

1003
01:01:03,454 --> 01:01:05,314
channeling that exact lineage, right?

1004
01:01:05,494 --> 01:01:09,954
It's not that it's not sacred and
so therefore I can iterate on it,

1005
01:01:09,954 --> 01:01:14,074
it's that I'm iterating because it
is sacred and so is my iteration.

1006
01:01:14,494 --> 01:01:17,834
So we already mentioned Corpus
Christi Carol, which is a Benjamin

1007
01:01:17,834 --> 01:01:20,634
Britten adapted middle English hymnal.

1008
01:01:20,904 --> 01:01:25,504
I think maybe enough is said about
that one because the other two

1009
01:01:25,684 --> 01:01:29,474
are worth discussing a little bit
more specifically, in my opinion.

1010
01:01:29,764 --> 01:01:34,954
So first, Lilac Wine is effectively
a jazz standard that was made famous

1011
01:01:34,954 --> 01:01:41,254
by Eartha Kitt, but the interpolation
that we see here from Jeff Buckley

1012
01:01:41,284 --> 01:01:46,494
is based on the interpolation from
Nina Simone and her rendition of it.

1013
01:01:47,189 --> 01:01:52,339
And he, he even said, quote, I've
only heard Nina Simone's and that

1014
01:01:52,339 --> 01:01:56,669
is the only one that matters,
which is a strong statement.

1015
01:01:56,679 --> 01:01:58,939
But, you know, he mentioned
like, there's one by Eartha Kitt.

1016
01:01:59,129 --> 01:02:01,359
There's one by Elkie Brooks,
which he's never, ever heard.

1017
01:02:01,619 --> 01:02:05,259
Uh, and there's another one and they've
done it, but he said, Nina does it best.

1018
01:02:05,419 --> 01:02:07,099
That's the end all of it.

1019
01:02:07,479 --> 01:02:09,769
That's the be all end all version.

1020
01:02:09,839 --> 01:02:10,879
She is the king.

1021
01:02:11,109 --> 01:02:11,749
Like, okay.

1022
01:02:11,959 --> 01:02:12,369
All right.

1023
01:02:13,502 --> 01:02:15,892
Kyle: cause the Elkie Brooks
version is the one that

1024
01:02:15,892 --> 01:02:18,472
charted in popular music, but.

1025
01:02:18,952 --> 01:02:19,522
I mean, yeah.

1026
01:02:19,522 --> 01:02:20,782
Nobody's beating Nina Simone.

1027
01:02:21,096 --> 01:02:26,686
Cliff: And it's hard to express unless
you consider yourself to be a fellow true

1028
01:02:26,686 --> 01:02:32,346
musical like dork at this moment in time
but like The confidence that it takes

1029
01:02:32,616 --> 01:02:38,321
to say not only am I covering the song
but I'm doing a really specific version

1030
01:02:38,331 --> 01:02:44,531
of it based on Nina Simone is a level of
self confidence and assurance that I have

1031
01:02:44,581 --> 01:02:47,891
cumulatively never experienced in my life.

1032
01:02:47,901 --> 01:02:49,881
Kyle: I'm not doing the
Star-Spangled Banner.

1033
01:02:50,061 --> 01:02:55,491
I'm , or I, I'm doing the version that
Whitney Houston did at the Super Bowl.

1034
01:02:57,453 --> 01:02:57,983
Cliff: Huh.

1035
01:02:58,451 --> 01:02:58,541
Kyle: You

1036
01:02:58,541 --> 01:02:59,171
gotta love it.

1037
01:03:00,201 --> 01:03:00,651
Cliff: yes.

1038
01:03:00,681 --> 01:03:05,161
And you can love it not only because
that's an energy worth appreciating,

1039
01:03:05,371 --> 01:03:07,331
but also because it's also good.

1040
01:03:07,941 --> 01:03:08,271
Kyle: Yeah.

1041
01:03:08,271 --> 01:03:08,426
Yeah, it is.

1042
01:03:08,651 --> 01:03:09,331
Cliff: okay.

1043
01:03:09,881 --> 01:03:15,198
Um, And then secondly, I don't know that
we haven't, we, we purposely not talked

1044
01:03:15,198 --> 01:03:21,328
about it, but the popular star of the show
on this record, especially in the time

1045
01:03:21,338 --> 01:03:24,048
since then is the cover of Hallelujah.

1046
01:03:24,558 --> 01:03:30,120
And yes, It is important not to overly
focus on that one particular song

1047
01:03:30,140 --> 01:03:33,950
in order to try to gain the context
of this otherwise very good record

1048
01:03:34,230 --> 01:03:39,727
in addition to all of that, but it's
unironically a really good example

1049
01:03:40,047 --> 01:03:42,187
of what he had the capacity to do.

1050
01:03:42,807 --> 01:03:47,527
Because this song is, I mean, first of
all, if you haven't heard the Leonard

1051
01:03:47,527 --> 01:03:53,687
Cohen version, of Hallelujah, you need
to hear it so that you understand the

1052
01:03:53,687 --> 01:03:59,577
contrast that exists between it and
then what happened for Jeff Buckley.

1053
01:03:59,807 --> 01:04:02,497
Cause it's not just like, Oh,
he was more emotional about it.

1054
01:04:02,567 --> 01:04:09,546
He like, he inverts an entire feeling
from the Leonard Cohen version, which

1055
01:04:09,687 --> 01:04:13,337
In my opinion, I described that first
one as like, there's much more of

1056
01:04:13,337 --> 01:04:17,404
a reserved nihilism, like a sort of

1057
01:04:17,554 --> 01:04:19,984
Kyle: it, it is cold and broken.

1058
01:04:19,984 --> 01:04:23,314
Hallelujah is way, way more literal.

1059
01:04:23,681 --> 01:04:31,121
Cliff: yeah, and so not only is he, yes,
injecting it with emotion, but he is, once

1060
01:04:31,121 --> 01:04:33,275
again, in the same way that he did it.

1061
01:04:33,696 --> 01:04:36,986
Lilac Wine in the style
of what Nina Simone did.

1062
01:04:37,356 --> 01:04:43,396
What he's actually doing is based
on John Cale's version of this song.

1063
01:04:43,763 --> 01:04:46,433
John Cale, the co founder
of the Velvet Underground.

1064
01:04:46,483 --> 01:04:49,793
Again, like another one of those moments
where it's just like, as soon as you start

1065
01:04:49,793 --> 01:04:52,653
checking into a detail, it's unbelievable.

1066
01:04:53,063 --> 01:04:56,593
So John Cale did a version on the piano.

1067
01:04:56,593 --> 01:04:56,657
You know?

1068
01:04:57,288 --> 01:05:03,168
As a tribute to Leonard Cohen and
Jeff Buckley heard that version of it.

1069
01:05:03,418 --> 01:05:08,948
And I think, I think also hearing
John Cale's version helps plot the

1070
01:05:08,948 --> 01:05:14,968
path to how Jeff Buckley got to where
he got and why it's so good because

1071
01:05:14,988 --> 01:05:21,148
he builds on what John Cale does
simply by using the piano instead.

1072
01:05:21,391 --> 01:05:21,595
Kyle: Yeah.

1073
01:05:22,133 --> 01:05:25,903
Cliff: simply by becoming a pianist
and then doing that song that way, it

1074
01:05:25,903 --> 01:05:27,813
has an entirely different feel to it.

1075
01:05:28,303 --> 01:05:33,413
And building on that level of emotional
intensity and the way that certain

1076
01:05:33,423 --> 01:05:38,223
things get really focused in on
and become more kind of yearning.

1077
01:05:38,573 --> 01:05:45,283
That's the thing that he builds on in
his version that makes it so Unbelievably

1078
01:05:45,323 --> 01:05:50,423
impactful, like I, I'm going to say a
thing I'm embarrassed about now, but the

1079
01:05:50,423 --> 01:05:55,843
first time I can remember crying to Jeff
Buckley's version of Hallelujah was during

1080
01:05:55,983 --> 01:06:02,723
an episode of House MD, where they played
this song and I was just like, what?

1081
01:06:03,068 --> 01:06:04,468
What is happening to me?

1082
01:06:05,108 --> 01:06:09,558
It hit perfectly in that
moment at a way that was like,

1083
01:06:09,858 --> 01:06:11,798
almost comically inappropriate.

1084
01:06:12,328 --> 01:06:16,088
Like, how did this show just
become fundamentally serious when

1085
01:06:16,088 --> 01:06:19,118
this is otherwise a show about
people who don't have lupus?

1086
01:06:19,518 --> 01:06:20,808
I'm blown away by it.

1087
01:06:20,808 --> 01:06:23,048
And I can, but I remember
where I was sitting.

1088
01:06:23,228 --> 01:06:25,788
I remember I was like, around my family.

1089
01:06:25,798 --> 01:06:30,897
Like, I It was such a concrete moment
in time, and I'm nearly embarrassed by

1090
01:06:30,907 --> 01:06:36,677
how emotionally intense and memorable
it was to hear it, but it speaks to how

1091
01:06:36,767 --> 01:06:42,947
not only well done it is as a song, but
aligning that song or some of these songs

1092
01:06:42,947 --> 01:06:50,337
to the right feeling and moment in time
is it opens up an order of magnitude

1093
01:06:50,887 --> 01:06:53,337
different experience to the whole thing.

1094
01:06:54,747 --> 01:07:00,047
Kyle: Yeah, you can, you can kind of
hear in the core of the song how, you

1095
01:07:00,047 --> 01:07:05,187
know, in love, we take all our feelings
about the world and we put them into

1096
01:07:05,187 --> 01:07:06,687
all our feelings about one person.

1097
01:07:06,687 --> 01:07:09,207
We're constantly projecting
things onto other things.

1098
01:07:09,237 --> 01:07:12,397
And his version of hallelujah
is stunningly intimate.

1099
01:07:12,507 --> 01:07:12,947
It is.

1100
01:07:13,297 --> 01:07:15,027
It's scary, intimate.

1101
01:07:15,077 --> 01:07:18,987
It's just like too much
laser pointed at one person.

1102
01:07:18,987 --> 01:07:20,587
And usually the person that's yourself.

1103
01:07:21,107 --> 01:07:26,007
So it, when we talk about it being like
almost too much to take, I think it's the

1104
01:07:26,007 --> 01:07:27,897
song mostly at the core of the record.

1105
01:07:27,917 --> 01:07:31,667
It's also the most indicative
of the Sinead cafe experience.

1106
01:07:31,697 --> 01:07:34,357
Cause it's, it's mostly
just him and the telecaster.

1107
01:07:34,887 --> 01:07:38,957
And when you listen to the live at Sinead
recordings of that song and other stuff

1108
01:07:39,267 --> 01:07:40,977
that's really a lot of what you get.

1109
01:07:41,457 --> 01:07:42,507
And it's powerful.

1110
01:07:43,007 --> 01:07:46,067
And you can, if you like that,
you should go listen to him

1111
01:07:46,067 --> 01:07:47,627
do other cover songs live.

1112
01:07:47,647 --> 01:07:51,777
Cause it's, it's There's so many
wow, so many wow moments with

1113
01:07:51,777 --> 01:07:53,367
him doing the American songbook.

1114
01:07:53,827 --> 01:07:56,987
And like we've heard so many bad
covers now that it almost cheapens it.

1115
01:07:56,987 --> 01:08:02,087
But I think about a Ray Charles,
you know, he loved Ray Charles

1116
01:08:02,087 --> 01:08:05,867
as well and was chasing some
of what Ray Charles was after.

1117
01:08:05,897 --> 01:08:10,927
And the Ray Charles, modern sounds
and country music to, to Sturgill,

1118
01:08:11,007 --> 01:08:14,327
metamodern sounds and country
music and, uh, when in Rome.

1119
01:08:14,827 --> 01:08:18,837
The promise cover on that and
just how they were like inverting

1120
01:08:18,837 --> 01:08:22,657
feelings to use your phrase to
get to maximum emotional effect.

1121
01:08:23,147 --> 01:08:26,267
He does covers in a Ray Charles
y way where he's, he's cutting

1122
01:08:26,267 --> 01:08:30,947
to the core of them emotionally
and also like, like Ray Charles.

1123
01:08:31,337 --> 01:08:37,257
This is one of just 650 recordings in the
library of Congress's national library.

1124
01:08:37,367 --> 01:08:38,427
music library.

1125
01:08:39,017 --> 01:08:43,827
Uh, the Library of Congress selects
25 recordings annually, and in its

1126
01:08:43,827 --> 01:08:49,207
short history has only initiated
650 total recordings in the history

1127
01:08:49,207 --> 01:08:53,097
of American music that are deemed
culturally, historically, or

1128
01:08:53,097 --> 01:08:57,887
aesthetically significant and or inform
or reflect life in the United States.

1129
01:08:58,467 --> 01:09:04,107
So as much as the song itself stuns me,
thinking about it belongs in the very

1130
01:09:04,117 --> 01:09:11,361
exclusive company of 649 or so other
recordings is like, I'm what, what more

1131
01:09:11,361 --> 01:09:14,948
do you need to know, dude, you wouldn't
be listening to this if we were, if you

1132
01:09:14,948 --> 01:09:18,458
needed a case mounted for why you need
to, like, you could have stopped at Jimmy

1133
01:09:18,458 --> 01:09:24,828
page and Robert plant cried when they
heard this guy play, but, but there,

1134
01:09:24,828 --> 01:09:26,958
there's yet another exhibit on our thesis.

1135
01:09:28,819 --> 01:09:30,769
Cliff: I love everything you just said.

1136
01:09:31,059 --> 01:09:33,869
Just to add one extra level.

1137
01:09:34,409 --> 01:09:38,649
I know every now and then we do like
a little, Me and you, Kyle, do our

1138
01:09:38,649 --> 01:09:42,679
little Deadpool thing where we break
the fourth wall and we do a laser beam

1139
01:09:42,679 --> 01:09:49,114
directly at Unevolved White Dudes, so
I just want to do one here, okay, like

1140
01:09:49,481 --> 01:09:55,141
you don't have to be afraid that this
emotionally intense thing will make

1141
01:09:55,151 --> 01:09:57,521
you emotional when you listen to it.

1142
01:09:57,811 --> 01:10:02,361
This is not the equivalent of turning
into a softie who likes stupid music

1143
01:10:02,371 --> 01:10:07,491
about stupid trivial things all the
time, or is constantly preoccupied

1144
01:10:07,501 --> 01:10:10,391
by the minutiae of Stupid life.

1145
01:10:10,941 --> 01:10:16,301
This is someone channeling the level
of energy that we are always trying to

1146
01:10:16,301 --> 01:10:21,131
describe in words that we have no words
for, and this is another example of it.

1147
01:10:21,431 --> 01:10:26,411
And if you are a person who
recoils at the idea, Of emotional

1148
01:10:26,411 --> 01:10:27,911
vulnerability through art.

1149
01:10:28,171 --> 01:10:33,071
This is a very good opportunity for
you to go practice alone by yourself.

1150
01:10:33,261 --> 01:10:36,701
So you can grow up and join
the rest of us like this.

1151
01:10:36,721 --> 01:10:42,451
It's good practice to cry to one of
these songs or to otherwise be like

1152
01:10:42,451 --> 01:10:47,831
shocked by how intense it is and
how it's not normally the thing that

1153
01:10:47,841 --> 01:10:51,601
you'd want to do, or you wouldn't
want to tell everybody this is your

1154
01:10:51,601 --> 01:10:55,441
favorite record or your favorite
artist And like, to me, they're just.

1155
01:10:55,808 --> 01:11:00,938
There are not too many good examples
of like a nearly foolproof way to gut

1156
01:11:00,938 --> 01:11:04,738
check yourself and make sure you're
still available enough to be touched

1157
01:11:04,748 --> 01:11:07,938
by things as this can be, to me.

1158
01:11:08,388 --> 01:11:11,318
Kyle: If Shane Gillis can
cry, you can cry too, bro.

1159
01:11:18,228 --> 01:11:20,818
because you reminded me of a story.

1160
01:11:21,308 --> 01:11:24,188
I was thinking as you were talking,
like, who needs to hear this?

1161
01:11:24,498 --> 01:11:27,418
It's mostly people that will never
listen to this podcast because they

1162
01:11:27,418 --> 01:11:32,953
also don't read books, but, um, I'm
thinking of, uh, one of my best friends

1163
01:11:32,953 --> 01:11:38,493
in high school, who you also know
his girlfriend broke up with him, and

1164
01:11:38,493 --> 01:11:43,448
the next morning we got to school,
uh, And he was already in the parking

1165
01:11:43,448 --> 01:11:45,838
lot and his windows were fogged up.

1166
01:11:45,838 --> 01:11:50,388
It was a cold day and I opened
the door and it smelled like beer.

1167
01:11:50,398 --> 01:11:54,598
Cause he'd been drinking all night and
he was blasting, I think Hank Williams.

1168
01:11:54,598 --> 01:11:56,568
I think he was listening
to I'm so lonesome.

1169
01:11:56,568 --> 01:11:57,198
I could cry.

1170
01:11:57,598 --> 01:11:58,808
And he was bro.

1171
01:11:58,838 --> 01:12:03,595
He was sobbing seven 30 in the
morning, drunk as a skunk about

1172
01:12:03,595 --> 01:12:05,265
to go into high school, sobbing.

1173
01:12:05,565 --> 01:12:07,715
And I was like, I was like, you know what?

1174
01:12:08,275 --> 01:12:12,395
If this guy can feel something
this deeply, then there's no

1175
01:12:12,395 --> 01:12:14,825
excuse to play that tough.

1176
01:12:15,445 --> 01:12:18,025
And I haven't thought about that
moment in a long time, but it

1177
01:12:18,025 --> 01:12:19,525
was very instructive for me.

1178
01:12:19,545 --> 01:12:25,005
So I won't name drop that person
but it was a big white F 250.

1179
01:12:25,555 --> 01:12:29,975
And just the, if you can, if you can
look at the person to your left at a

1180
01:12:29,975 --> 01:12:33,335
red light with their big lifted truck
with the truck nuts with a little bit of

1181
01:12:33,335 --> 01:12:38,385
sympathy And, you know, maybe just maybe
something in this world will, will break

1182
01:12:38,385 --> 01:12:39,985
them down and make them real boys again.

1183
01:12:40,352 --> 01:12:42,382
Cliff: Hopefully it's
the sad boy from the 90s.

1184
01:12:43,586 --> 01:12:45,096
We'll deploy him as much as we can.

1185
01:12:45,570 --> 01:12:49,010
Kyle: Yeah, if If nothing else
works, you can say, Hey, remember,

1186
01:12:49,230 --> 01:12:50,660
like Jeff Buckley got girls.

1187
01:12:50,850 --> 01:12:51,720
This gets girls.

1188
01:12:51,730 --> 01:12:52,710
You can't fake it.

1189
01:12:53,290 --> 01:12:57,210
You got to be genuinely sensitive,
but you could just try being

1190
01:12:57,210 --> 01:13:00,890
sensitive for once you have you
tried caring about other people?

1191
01:13:01,715 --> 01:13:02,585
In the world.

1192
01:13:02,585 --> 01:13:03,705
I

1193
01:13:05,565 --> 01:13:08,185
wonder why everybody's
so lonely these days.

1194
01:13:08,425 --> 01:13:08,845
Hmm.

1195
01:13:09,208 --> 01:13:11,878
Cliff: Caring about other people is
the top thing I both recommend and

1196
01:13:11,878 --> 01:13:13,648
don't recommend at the same time.

1197
01:13:14,248 --> 01:13:15,918
Kyle: "Caring's so gay, bro."

1198
01:13:16,018 --> 01:13:16,867
Yeah, it is.

1199
01:13:16,897 --> 01:13:17,797
Everybody's gay.

1200
01:13:19,251 --> 01:13:21,761
Be in love with people, you stupid bitch.

1201
01:13:27,513 --> 01:13:32,319
Cliff: While, uh, while we're still
in the territory of, uh, things

1202
01:13:32,319 --> 01:13:36,149
that might surface level offend you,
but, but you should get past it.

1203
01:13:37,869 --> 01:13:40,479
Let's just touch one more
time on this album art.

1204
01:13:40,699 --> 01:13:45,439
Cause, I mean, this This Glamour
Shot ass shit just drives me

1205
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:48,379
crazy every time I look at it.

1206
01:13:48,379 --> 01:13:52,249
I can't, like, why is George
Michael on the cover of this thing?

1207
01:13:52,839 --> 01:13:55,359
I cannot understand it,
for the love of God.

1208
01:13:55,979 --> 01:13:57,299
But there's funniness behind it.

1209
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:02,879
Kyle: Okay, so, so first of all, the
jacket that he's wearing was from a

1210
01:14:02,879 --> 01:14:07,289
thrift store and his friends called it
his Judy Garland jacket, which is just

1211
01:14:09,344 --> 01:14:14,374
Just the best thing because you know
like everybody's been a teenager once

1212
01:14:14,434 --> 01:14:18,274
and has tried to take a fashion risk
they're really excited about and their

1213
01:14:18,274 --> 01:14:22,924
friends are like this shit is not
it But we cannot tell Kyle because

1214
01:14:22,924 --> 01:14:26,184
he will be devastated because he's
wrapping his identity around this

1215
01:14:26,184 --> 01:14:26,484
thing.

1216
01:14:26,759 --> 01:14:28,629
Cliff: yeah, just let
him, just let him wear a

1217
01:14:28,629 --> 01:14:29,299
monocle.

1218
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:30,809
Just let him do it.

1219
01:14:30,849 --> 01:14:31,929
He can pull it off.

1220
01:14:31,929 --> 01:14:32,885
Ha ha

1221
01:14:32,885 --> 01:14:33,363
ha

1222
01:14:33,764 --> 01:14:37,464
Kyle: remember when monocle era Oh, shit.

1223
01:14:38,167 --> 01:14:39,617
I did jorts for a while.

1224
01:14:39,617 --> 01:14:41,837
I tried to make that work pretty hard.

1225
01:14:41,907 --> 01:14:44,227
And I'm just, it's, I don't
have the build for it.

1226
01:14:44,227 --> 01:14:47,346
Just, just

1227
01:14:47,578 --> 01:14:49,234
Cliff: ha ha ha ha ha ha

1228
01:14:49,267 --> 01:14:54,143
Kyle: wearing more normal shorts
that were designed to be shorts now.

1229
01:14:54,237 --> 01:14:59,687
So I appreciate the Judy Garland jacket
on the thing, but the photo was taken

1230
01:14:59,757 --> 01:15:04,687
in the stairwell of William Baczynski's
loft, who like, if you read the,

1231
01:15:04,827 --> 01:15:08,677
"here's the 10 fun facts about Grace
you may not have known" the photographer

1232
01:15:08,677 --> 01:15:10,487
who took the photo called him Billy.

1233
01:15:10,807 --> 01:15:15,087
So there's no indication that the loft
is the man who made disintegration

1234
01:15:15,087 --> 01:15:19,167
loops, one of the great ambient records
of the past 30 years or whatever.

1235
01:15:19,641 --> 01:15:23,831
And apparently to get in the headspace
for the brooding, deeply earnest

1236
01:15:23,831 --> 01:15:28,391
look on the cover, he was listening
to his recording of Dream Brother,

1237
01:15:28,489 --> 01:15:32,505
the final song on the original,
iteration of the record, on cassette.

1238
01:15:33,455 --> 01:15:39,755
So like, the man is listening to basically
the The raga he made to close the

1239
01:15:39,755 --> 01:15:42,935
record and getting in the mood to brood.

1240
01:15:43,565 --> 01:15:44,805
And we got the photo.

1241
01:15:44,835 --> 01:15:49,075
I would never in a million years if I
wrote an autobiography about my life,

1242
01:15:49,205 --> 01:15:53,897
God forbid I would never let anyone
put a photo of me like this in any,

1243
01:15:53,957 --> 01:15:58,037
anywhere on the internet or anything,
if I would immediately be like Lars

1244
01:15:58,047 --> 01:16:02,367
Ulrich's dad, if I saw a photo of myself
like this, I'd be like, delete that.

1245
01:16:04,193 --> 01:16:07,323
But it's a, it's just yet
another thing that he makes work.

1246
01:16:07,732 --> 01:16:09,892
Cliff: well, that's because
he's very pretty, which is

1247
01:16:09,892 --> 01:16:11,512
another annoying thing about

1248
01:16:11,512 --> 01:16:11,852
him.

1249
01:16:12,212 --> 01:16:12,892
Yes.

1250
01:16:13,808 --> 01:16:17,368
so we've, we've had some fun with the
unexpected twists and turns of it.

1251
01:16:17,378 --> 01:16:22,068
But so another one of our sort of
exercises and focuses, we talked

1252
01:16:22,068 --> 01:16:25,333
a little bit about what sort of,
is surprising from time to time.

1253
01:16:25,613 --> 01:16:29,273
But then on this one, once you started
drilling in, what are some things to

1254
01:16:29,273 --> 01:16:35,080
focus on if you want to do like active
listening or, you know, educational

1255
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:40,900
listening or emotional depth, plummet,
plumaging, plumaging, emotional, whatever

1256
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:42,790
you want to dive into your feels.

1257
01:16:43,180 --> 01:16:47,040
What are some things that for you like
stand out or especially interesting?

1258
01:16:47,140 --> 01:16:49,157
Yeah, there's

1259
01:16:49,405 --> 01:16:52,875
Kyle: Four technical that add up to
one spiritual, and I want to hear

1260
01:16:52,875 --> 01:16:55,715
from you on a couple specifically and
anything else you want to chime in on.

1261
01:16:55,725 --> 01:16:58,525
The four technical are
voice, obviously, duh.

1262
01:16:58,965 --> 01:17:00,645
Lyrics, because holy shit.

1263
01:17:01,105 --> 01:17:03,763
Uh, guitar, surprising.

1264
01:17:04,078 --> 01:17:08,188
Maybe not surprising how incredible
he is a guitar and then atmosphere.

1265
01:17:08,268 --> 01:17:12,698
So just real quickly on voice his
own mom and one of the documentaries

1266
01:17:12,708 --> 01:17:18,188
said, you know, his two influences
were Robert plant and Nusrat Fateh Ali

1267
01:17:18,188 --> 01:17:20,558
Khan, a legendary Pakistani singer.

1268
01:17:20,956 --> 01:17:24,474
so if Shankar, go to Jeff Buckley.

1269
01:17:25,121 --> 01:17:29,011
His mom, Mary Gweebert, said what Robert
Plant gave him was the ability to just

1270
01:17:29,021 --> 01:17:32,771
take the envelope all the way open, just
fling it wide open to his voice and take

1271
01:17:32,771 --> 01:17:34,111
it wherever his heart would take him.

1272
01:17:34,521 --> 01:17:37,621
And Nusrat took him to the Divine, so
it was sort of a natural progression

1273
01:17:37,621 --> 01:17:41,181
between Robert and Nusrat, and Jeff was
the bridge between the two, and when he

1274
01:17:41,181 --> 01:17:43,321
found that bridge, it was bliss for him.

1275
01:17:43,881 --> 01:17:45,331
So thinking about, like,

1276
01:17:48,476 --> 01:17:51,556
Eastern modes and Led Zeppelin
and, you know, Led Zeppelin also

1277
01:17:51,556 --> 01:17:55,326
played with Eastern modes, but
just sort of like East meets West

1278
01:17:55,776 --> 01:17:57,736
in his voice and instrumentation.

1279
01:17:58,196 --> 01:18:02,616
I have a note in my phone, lines I
wish I'd written, and I mean, I could

1280
01:18:02,616 --> 01:18:07,766
probably copy and paste every lyric on
this record to be in there, but there

1281
01:18:07,766 --> 01:18:11,246
are tons, but one of my favorites is
we walked around till the moon got full

1282
01:18:11,246 --> 01:18:15,216
like a plate, then the wind blew an
indication and I fell asleep like a gate.

1283
01:18:15,746 --> 01:18:16,576
on So Real.

1284
01:18:17,126 --> 01:18:19,336
I'll save guitar for you
because you're the only one of

1285
01:18:19,336 --> 01:18:20,866
us who actually plays guitar.

1286
01:18:21,376 --> 01:18:27,867
And then Atmosphere, I think partly
comes from Andy Wallace mixing minimal

1287
01:18:27,867 --> 01:18:29,497
instrumentation to huge effect.

1288
01:18:30,047 --> 01:18:32,797
Or even when it gets kind of layered,
but also the Kaua'li influence.

1289
01:18:32,807 --> 01:18:37,952
So, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan he
heard one day in his apartment,

1290
01:18:37,962 --> 01:18:39,472
just like in a stack of records.

1291
01:18:40,042 --> 01:18:46,022
He called his voice mystical and chanting,
and he likened his voice to velvet fire.

1292
01:18:46,492 --> 01:18:49,872
And they went on to strike up a
friendship and an interview magazine,

1293
01:18:49,872 --> 01:18:52,662
which, you know, the, the concept
of interview magazine, where an

1294
01:18:52,672 --> 01:18:56,742
artist interviews, an artist is
still very cool and well trod ground.

1295
01:18:57,262 --> 01:18:59,822
But there's a 96 interview
between the two of them.

1296
01:19:00,482 --> 01:19:04,629
And it's clear, he talked about this
guy, Every time he possibly could.

1297
01:19:05,069 --> 01:19:09,999
So I think a lot of the atmosphere and
the like desire to drone and get into

1298
01:19:09,999 --> 01:19:14,089
the cosmic, uh, there's indications
of can, there's invocations of in a

1299
01:19:14,089 --> 01:19:18,329
silent way, Miles Davis, there's all
sorts of that sort of heady stuff, but,

1300
01:19:18,699 --> 01:19:22,759
but it really goes back to this guy,
uh, what it taught him about voice and

1301
01:19:22,759 --> 01:19:26,579
what it taught him about expansiveness
of an arrangement or of improvisation

1302
01:19:26,579 --> 01:19:29,686
or, or whatever, it's not quite jazz.

1303
01:19:29,696 --> 01:19:32,666
It's more Eastern stuff, Kaua'li stuff.

1304
01:19:32,666 --> 01:19:35,046
So that's a rabbit hole to
go down in and of itself.

1305
01:19:35,576 --> 01:19:38,556
And then there's a handful of
like, I like listening for the big

1306
01:19:38,566 --> 01:19:41,076
feels moments where he just like.

1307
01:19:41,476 --> 01:19:42,126
goes for it.

1308
01:19:42,186 --> 01:19:43,476
That's the spiritual thing.

1309
01:19:43,476 --> 01:19:47,386
So, it started, the first one that I
noticed, and I don't want to rattle them

1310
01:19:47,386 --> 01:19:50,796
all off, but the first one I noticed
is there's a big guitar strum and then

1311
01:19:50,796 --> 01:19:54,466
he lets out a big howl around four
minutes of the first song of mojo pen.

1312
01:19:54,466 --> 01:19:57,746
And you're just like, Whoa, like
if you, if you put it on and walked

1313
01:19:57,746 --> 01:20:01,036
away for a minute, that's the thing
that draws you back to the speaker.

1314
01:20:01,036 --> 01:20:05,566
And you're like, Oh no, I need to
really Actually listen and there's

1315
01:20:05,566 --> 01:20:09,524
about one of those a song and sometimes
more what else is there for you?

1316
01:20:09,793 --> 01:20:11,903
Cliff: hearty endorsement
to pretty much all of those.

1317
01:20:11,993 --> 01:20:18,760
The only thing I'll add is in the
vein of Prince, here is a dude who

1318
01:20:18,770 --> 01:20:24,760
was extraordinarily good at guitar,
but unless you were looking for that

1319
01:20:24,770 --> 01:20:31,290
information, and or, a very experienced
musician, you may not notice that at all.

1320
01:20:32,100 --> 01:20:39,307
And It is even more obscured on
this record than Prince tended to

1321
01:20:39,327 --> 01:20:45,827
obscure his, uh, in the sense that,
like, Prince would note a song or

1322
01:20:45,827 --> 01:20:50,202
two on an album, and be like, just
in case you forgot, Here's my shit.

1323
01:20:50,292 --> 01:20:50,642
Right.

1324
01:20:51,162 --> 01:20:53,032
Which he could do with a
ton of instruments, right?

1325
01:20:53,362 --> 01:20:56,172
What we don't have here though,
this is not a, in my opinion, this

1326
01:20:56,172 --> 01:20:57,682
is not a guitar driven record.

1327
01:20:57,972 --> 01:21:01,202
I know that other people would probably
disagree with that classification, but

1328
01:21:01,202 --> 01:21:05,972
like, this is a vocal driven record
in my opinion, and because of all

1329
01:21:05,972 --> 01:21:09,839
the things we've talked about before,
Jeff Buckley deeply understood the

1330
01:21:09,839 --> 01:21:15,909
interplay between guitar and voice And
so that came out in not only his own

1331
01:21:15,919 --> 01:21:20,199
songwriting, but also in how these songs
got structured and recorded in general.

1332
01:21:20,449 --> 01:21:24,209
But if you want to focus on it or, you
know, understand a little bit of what I'm

1333
01:21:24,209 --> 01:21:33,090
looking for, or referencing on So Real,
the chords that he uses in the verse are.

1334
01:21:33,440 --> 01:21:36,140
An unexpected voicing of chords.

1335
01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:38,200
I like, I don't really
know how else to say that.

1336
01:21:38,380 --> 01:21:42,700
Like, once you listen to it, you can
probably understand what I'm kind

1337
01:21:42,700 --> 01:21:46,040
of pointing out about, like, there
were a lot of ways to play that chord

1338
01:21:46,070 --> 01:21:50,900
that did not require whatever voicing
that they're currently using for

1339
01:21:50,900 --> 01:21:57,820
it, but it creates a, almost like an
unease, even though the chord isn't.

1340
01:21:58,305 --> 01:22:02,195
As far as notes go out of key
or wrong or anything like that.

1341
01:22:02,195 --> 01:22:07,765
But simply the inner mix of the kind
of tonal ranges and how they choose

1342
01:22:07,765 --> 01:22:14,075
to play that particular chord is like
one example of how the emotional tenor

1343
01:22:14,105 --> 01:22:16,615
of this whole record can surprise you.

1344
01:22:16,815 --> 01:22:20,525
And that's some of the ways that
it's happening is by just like subtle

1345
01:22:20,665 --> 01:22:23,085
unusual decisions about how the guitar.

1346
01:22:23,380 --> 01:22:26,510
Plays its own role in the
whole kind of spectrum.

1347
01:22:27,100 --> 01:22:29,910
And then, yeah, you, you mentioned
mojo pen, but like, that's another

1348
01:22:29,910 --> 01:22:34,053
good example, like just to keep it
pretty simple, like several people

1349
01:22:34,053 --> 01:22:37,253
were like, Jeff Buckley could
have very easily been a rock star.

1350
01:22:38,058 --> 01:22:42,898
In the very classic vein of it
in the nineties, everything, like

1351
01:22:42,898 --> 01:22:46,528
he could have just made another
version of those bands and ripped.

1352
01:22:46,898 --> 01:22:52,268
And I think you can see that
in how he is capable of whether

1353
01:22:52,278 --> 01:22:55,098
it's mojo pin or eternal life.

1354
01:22:55,352 --> 01:22:58,522
Oh, he can just dip his toe directly
into this and come right back out of it.

1355
01:22:58,632 --> 01:23:01,842
He's not not doing it because he
can't, he's not doing it cause he

1356
01:23:01,842 --> 01:23:03,152
wants to do something different.

1357
01:23:03,434 --> 01:23:04,499
And yeah,

1358
01:23:04,504 --> 01:23:13,604
Kyle: he has one of the most mc5 that
i've ever heard And he did that on

1359
01:23:13,604 --> 01:23:21,259
a pretty regular basis and it slams
and he did Uh He covered Big Star's

1360
01:23:21,259 --> 01:23:23,469
Kangaroo or Alex Chilton's Kangaroo.

1361
01:23:23,743 --> 01:23:29,203
he did a pretty faithful Screamin
Jay Hawkins Alligator Wine, which on

1362
01:23:29,203 --> 01:23:32,493
the one hand makes me wince a little,
but like he really went into it with

1363
01:23:32,503 --> 01:23:35,543
both feet and that's super ballsy.

1364
01:23:36,063 --> 01:23:40,693
Um, and not in a, an appropriative
way, like getting whatever demon in him

1365
01:23:40,693 --> 01:23:42,623
that was also in Screamin Jay Hawkins.

1366
01:23:43,093 --> 01:23:46,248
He covered Hank Williams lost highway.

1367
01:23:46,668 --> 01:23:48,618
Uh, he did parchment farm blues.

1368
01:23:48,618 --> 01:23:52,568
Like he, he, he was really good at open
tune stuff and slide guitar, which is

1369
01:23:52,818 --> 01:23:57,328
we talked about on the almond brothers
episode is very easily to do horribly

1370
01:23:57,598 --> 01:23:59,738
and extremely difficult to do well.

1371
01:24:00,008 --> 01:24:03,288
So the fact that not only
could he rock really hard.

1372
01:24:03,758 --> 01:24:06,798
And shows not to a gentleman as someone
who can play the accordion, but doesn't

1373
01:24:07,218 --> 01:24:12,168
once again but he could switch between
modes not just like song genre, but

1374
01:24:12,278 --> 01:24:17,448
guitar style wise, which shows that he
was always studying, always playing,

1375
01:24:17,468 --> 01:24:19,508
always practicing, always expanding.

1376
01:24:19,868 --> 01:24:21,868
And very much like Prince in that way.

1377
01:24:21,878 --> 01:24:25,338
Like you can't really appreciate Prince
just by listening to Purple Rain.

1378
01:24:25,348 --> 01:24:32,418
You also need to hear like the Minneapolis
after show, July, 1984, or whatever,

1379
01:24:32,418 --> 01:24:34,178
and all the stuff that was in the vault.

1380
01:24:34,688 --> 01:24:39,338
Like all of it, the body of work
informs each little musical moment.

1381
01:24:39,468 --> 01:24:43,968
And again, how much information was
packed into what you were getting as a

1382
01:24:43,968 --> 01:24:45,478
dropper of feeling right on the tongue.

1383
01:24:46,843 --> 01:24:49,843
Cliff: Robert plant talked
about when they would.

1384
01:24:50,353 --> 01:24:56,163
Watch or listen to him that early on into
that experience, Robert Plant himself,

1385
01:24:56,173 --> 01:25:01,613
again, I just want to be really clear,
an extremely talented musical genius.

1386
01:25:02,043 --> 01:25:05,243
Uh, and I don't mind using any of
those words to describe Robert Plant.

1387
01:25:05,553 --> 01:25:10,283
He's standing there with Jimmy Page,
another extreme musical genius, and

1388
01:25:10,283 --> 01:25:14,812
they are trying to decipher what they
are hearing in the songs because they

1389
01:25:14,812 --> 01:25:16,812
believed that it was in different tunings.

1390
01:25:16,842 --> 01:25:21,032
And we're trying to figure out how he was
getting that tone back out of instruments.

1391
01:25:21,252 --> 01:25:25,672
And these are from, again, two
people with tremendous range in their

1392
01:25:25,672 --> 01:25:29,732
respective instruments, who know
how to take influence from other

1393
01:25:29,732 --> 01:25:35,059
cultures, who know how to use effects,
like for all intents and purposes,

1394
01:25:35,139 --> 01:25:38,109
people with the most information
about what could have been happening

1395
01:25:38,119 --> 01:25:39,849
in a given moment inside of music.

1396
01:25:39,879 --> 01:25:40,639
And they were stumped.

1397
01:25:40,845 --> 01:25:44,055
I mean, it's the shocking
simplicity of mastery, which is

1398
01:25:44,055 --> 01:25:45,902
a common theme we talk about.

1399
01:25:45,902 --> 01:25:49,022
Cause when we pick up these albums,
we always want you to know when

1400
01:25:49,022 --> 01:25:51,072
you're listening to something
and you go, why is it that good?

1401
01:25:51,072 --> 01:25:52,752
And it's like, cause they're that good.

1402
01:25:53,152 --> 01:25:56,792
Uh, and they've been channeling
it into a million tiny moments.

1403
01:25:57,062 --> 01:26:01,273
But even that was just
another killer example of.

1404
01:26:01,588 --> 01:26:05,358
How his understanding
of musical instruments.

1405
01:26:05,368 --> 01:26:09,768
And again, that like really a spectrum,
not just a range, but a spectrum of

1406
01:26:09,768 --> 01:26:16,298
tonality in a song can be like filled
in and painted in different ways to

1407
01:26:16,298 --> 01:26:22,378
really draw out a particular aspect of
a song or a word or a lyric or a melody.

1408
01:26:23,288 --> 01:26:25,768
Kyle: And he didn't just play the guitar.

1409
01:26:26,038 --> 01:26:30,938
He played bass, he played dobro, he
played the mandolin, uh, the intro

1410
01:26:30,938 --> 01:26:34,788
to Lover You Should Have Come Over
has harmonium, he played the organ,

1411
01:26:35,058 --> 01:26:40,608
he played the dulcimer for the Dream
Brother intro, the tabla the harmonica.

1412
01:26:41,158 --> 01:26:42,338
He could get after it.

1413
01:26:42,528 --> 01:26:47,528
He, um, he, he was raw on
vocals like Robert Plant.

1414
01:26:47,768 --> 01:26:52,353
He, Could rip and rock on the guitar
like Jimmy Page and take arrangements

1415
01:26:52,353 --> 01:26:55,783
a million different directions and he
could play anything like John Paul Jones.

1416
01:26:56,078 --> 01:26:56,298
Cliff: Yeah.

1417
01:26:56,298 --> 01:26:58,658
I was going to say he played all the
instruments John Paul Jones played.

1418
01:26:58,658 --> 01:26:58,808
Yeah.

1419
01:26:59,983 --> 01:27:03,273
Kyle: but, but could he blast
through with his bare hands

1420
01:27:03,293 --> 01:27:04,793
a drum kit like John Bonham?

1421
01:27:04,803 --> 01:27:09,013
The world will never know, but he was,
he was certainly the rest of, uh, he was

1422
01:27:09,023 --> 01:27:10,823
the rest of what's up on all in one body.

1423
01:27:10,919 --> 01:27:15,829
Cliff: So let's take a fun final
sweep, because this has all certainly

1424
01:27:15,829 --> 01:27:21,246
been leading towards the possibly,
literally, endless amount of options

1425
01:27:21,246 --> 01:27:26,406
you have for where to go from here,
if anything just connected with you.

1426
01:27:26,786 --> 01:27:33,073
Because we have, I mean we have already
probably name dropped the entire game.

1427
01:27:33,698 --> 01:27:39,288
Non topical artists as much or more
than we usually try to do in episodes

1428
01:27:39,468 --> 01:27:42,898
So we're not just constantly throwing
a million people out in your general

1429
01:27:42,898 --> 01:27:46,908
direction, but even with that said
everyone that we've mentioned so

1430
01:27:46,908 --> 01:27:52,755
far it goes further especially when
you think about Who was inspired?

1431
01:27:53,155 --> 01:27:57,815
By this singular record and jeff
buckley in general And then further

1432
01:27:57,815 --> 01:28:03,530
and further downstream how that further
impacted music that Might not even

1433
01:28:03,530 --> 01:28:05,030
be considered part of this genre.

1434
01:28:05,370 --> 01:28:09,830
Otherwise like the leap between Jeff
Buckley and Celine Dion that we did at

1435
01:28:09,830 --> 01:28:14,230
the beginning is not as weird of a move
as it seems like it would be because

1436
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:16,530
it pops up a lot across the board.

1437
01:28:16,605 --> 01:28:20,665
Kyle: mean, you could envision them on a
bill together after you watch him live.

1438
01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:24,697
You know, Jeff Buckley opens for
Celine Dion and both camps being

1439
01:28:24,697 --> 01:28:26,227
like, wow, that was something new.

1440
01:28:26,594 --> 01:28:28,034
Cliff: Wow, I'm thinking
about that a lot now.

1441
01:28:28,074 --> 01:28:29,544
Okay, that'll, I'll have to put a pin in

1442
01:28:29,754 --> 01:28:30,384
Kyle: Jeff Buckley

1443
01:28:30,424 --> 01:28:30,854
Cliff: that's, uh,

1444
01:28:30,874 --> 01:28:32,084
Kyle: Dion at the Fox.

1445
01:28:32,084 --> 01:28:35,544
Cliff: And Bjerk, uh,
yeah, just all three.

1446
01:28:35,814 --> 01:28:37,084
Let's get them together and figure

1447
01:28:37,114 --> 01:28:39,504
Kyle: You'll never hear
music the same again.

1448
01:28:39,876 --> 01:28:43,626
Cliff: this could be an easy ramp
up, meaning that this is probably the

1449
01:28:43,636 --> 01:28:48,996
simplest and in a sense, like dumbest
thing we can point out here, but

1450
01:28:49,276 --> 01:28:51,366
it's also surprisingly consequential.

1451
01:28:51,756 --> 01:28:55,806
He, Jeff Buckley convinced people
that they could sing in falsetto.

1452
01:28:58,111 --> 01:29:02,091
Which is understandable as you
know, I don't do it as much

1453
01:29:02,091 --> 01:29:05,881
these days, but I've had vocal
training and experience in my life.

1454
01:29:06,221 --> 01:29:08,231
Falsetto is a scary thing to jump into.

1455
01:29:08,451 --> 01:29:11,161
You have to, it's a,
pretty sincere muscle.

1456
01:29:11,161 --> 01:29:15,441
You have to practice being able to,
especially switching between them and

1457
01:29:15,441 --> 01:29:20,291
songs, switching to falsetto and back
is not only scary because of what, like

1458
01:29:20,291 --> 01:29:23,811
what you're having to do physically with
your body, but it's But it's, it's a

1459
01:29:23,951 --> 01:29:27,831
real big risk of going atonal real fast.

1460
01:29:28,251 --> 01:29:33,511
And this is another one of those
places where, as we've mentioned, the

1461
01:29:33,511 --> 01:29:37,911
album will show you, yes, but then
every live performance you can catch

1462
01:29:37,941 --> 01:29:42,041
of this dude past this will really
cement the whole thing into place.

1463
01:29:42,181 --> 01:29:48,321
He had zero trouble going to any level of
the range that he wanted to get on demand.

1464
01:29:48,781 --> 01:29:49,421
And so.

1465
01:29:49,686 --> 01:29:53,906
On top of that being just generally
fascinating, I think to a lot of people,

1466
01:29:53,906 --> 01:29:55,486
including musicians who mentioned it.

1467
01:29:55,896 --> 01:30:01,976
Like Tom York from Radiohead was a
direct, verbally stated descendant

1468
01:30:02,256 --> 01:30:06,656
of the inspiration of Jeff Buckley
relative to being able to sing falsetto

1469
01:30:06,886 --> 01:30:10,446
and literally at the moment, I'm
forgetting exactly what the song was.

1470
01:30:10,686 --> 01:30:12,076
Um, but the story as it

1471
01:30:12,216 --> 01:30:13,636
Kyle: Fake plastic trees.

1472
01:30:14,166 --> 01:30:14,726
Cliff: Thank you.

1473
01:30:14,727 --> 01:30:18,126
I mean, he, he did the move
where one artist went to another

1474
01:30:18,126 --> 01:30:19,756
artist's show and went, Oh, fuck.

1475
01:30:19,956 --> 01:30:21,856
I gotta go home and work on this now.

1476
01:30:22,026 --> 01:30:24,526
And then went and wrote a song
that tried to capture what it

1477
01:30:24,526 --> 01:30:25,866
is that he got excited about.

1478
01:30:26,346 --> 01:30:32,136
And so to me, even though this is, A
bit of a extrapolation from that, right?

1479
01:30:32,396 --> 01:30:37,526
Like I think examples of where that
has played out in popular music.

1480
01:30:37,796 --> 01:30:41,266
I, one of my regular touchstones, yes.

1481
01:30:41,276 --> 01:30:47,496
For guitar music, John Mayer has a lot
of falsetto esque stuff that he also does

1482
01:30:47,566 --> 01:30:52,156
specifically in the context of what he's
playing on guitar, which is an interesting

1483
01:30:52,156 --> 01:30:56,676
move that has a, Pretty direct lineage
from Jeff Buckley and from this album.

1484
01:30:57,116 --> 01:31:01,386
But also bands like think about Muse, the
band, even if you don't like them very

1485
01:31:01,386 --> 01:31:06,946
much, like their approach to falsetto
behind a driving song is a lot of what

1486
01:31:06,946 --> 01:31:10,436
Jeff Buckley was doing when he was
letting people know he could be in a

1487
01:31:10,436 --> 01:31:11,806
grunge band, but he didn't want to be.

1488
01:31:12,386 --> 01:31:16,806
And then even other, you know, kind of
more recent examples, closer to, to my

1489
01:31:16,806 --> 01:31:21,206
world, I guess, like, even though this
isn't technically falsetto, Anthony

1490
01:31:21,206 --> 01:31:27,736
Green and like Circus Survive and some
of the bands that began to utilize much

1491
01:31:27,736 --> 01:31:33,016
higher pitched vocalizations and the
way that guitar players and I could

1492
01:31:33,146 --> 01:31:36,456
talk about this all day, but won't, but
the way that like a good guitar player

1493
01:31:36,456 --> 01:31:41,666
can find a way to change the way that
they play to fill in the space that's

1494
01:31:41,666 --> 01:31:47,346
now not occupied by a voice, like
all of those things are, while not.

1495
01:31:47,961 --> 01:31:52,631
100 percent Jeff Buckley's fault or,
and we're not saying they wouldn't

1496
01:31:52,631 --> 01:31:58,011
have evolved in this direction,
his singularity and the ability for

1497
01:31:58,011 --> 01:32:02,551
people to hear how good he was at this
literally inspired new ways of singing.

1498
01:32:03,536 --> 01:32:07,016
Kyle: I, I would also put
and apologies if this is over

1499
01:32:07,016 --> 01:32:08,366
ascribing, but I would also put.

1500
01:32:08,806 --> 01:32:14,746
Jonesy from Seeker Rose, and, and Josh
Homme from Queens of the Stone Age

1501
01:32:14,766 --> 01:32:16,736
Cliff: yeah, great examples,

1502
01:32:16,826 --> 01:32:17,156
Kyle: well.

1503
01:32:17,523 --> 01:32:18,443
Cliff: great examples.

1504
01:32:19,073 --> 01:32:24,083
So then, uh, on a slightly, maybe
deeper level, depending on how you

1505
01:32:24,083 --> 01:32:29,643
feel, um, although this will be a nice
dip into pop, uh, if anyone was, so if

1506
01:32:29,643 --> 01:32:32,783
anyone stuck around for an hour and a
half, but was scared off by the other

1507
01:32:32,783 --> 01:32:34,333
things we mentioned, here's a few more.

1508
01:32:34,753 --> 01:32:36,643
When it comes to like lyrical depth.

1509
01:32:36,813 --> 01:32:42,490
Depths, uh, in, in the sort of emotional
angle, I guess that Jeff Buckley

1510
01:32:42,490 --> 01:32:48,640
came with a few folks really stood
out as, as being like verbalizing

1511
01:32:48,650 --> 01:32:50,860
their direct inspiration from that.

1512
01:32:51,290 --> 01:32:53,120
So one of those is Adele.

1513
01:32:53,370 --> 01:32:56,680
Uh, and again, like, regardless of
whether you like listening to Adele

1514
01:32:56,680 --> 01:33:00,690
or not, I think we can probably agree
she's written or performed some very

1515
01:33:00,690 --> 01:33:02,800
moving songs and is an extremely good

1516
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:03,240
vocalist.

1517
01:33:03,825 --> 01:33:08,375
And so Adele said, quote, I try to
listen to music that might uplift me,

1518
01:33:08,405 --> 01:33:10,065
but I don't really connect with it.

1519
01:33:10,155 --> 01:33:11,735
So mainly, Jeff Buckley.

1520
01:33:12,395 --> 01:33:14,725
And that's been my entire
life that I've done that.

1521
01:33:14,775 --> 01:33:19,285
I remember falling out with my best friend
when I was 7 years old and listening to

1522
01:33:19,285 --> 01:33:24,235
Jeff Buckley because my mom was a huge
fan and Grace has always been around for

1523
01:33:24,245 --> 01:33:24,545
me.

1524
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:27,605
Another example, Phoebe Bridgers.

1525
01:33:27,827 --> 01:33:31,407
maybe in the same echelon, but,
you know, probably now attracting a

1526
01:33:31,407 --> 01:33:35,427
totally different column of people who
turned the volume up on this podcast.

1527
01:33:35,937 --> 01:33:39,087
Um, but the live at Sinead.

1528
01:33:39,312 --> 01:33:41,332
EP that we were, that
we've been talking about.

1529
01:33:41,332 --> 01:33:44,672
That was the, the precursor to the
actual full length studio record.

1530
01:33:45,132 --> 01:33:48,222
That was the first record that Phoebe
Bridger said she ever fell in love with.

1531
01:33:48,542 --> 01:33:52,032
Uh, and in a moment that will
immediately date everyone, she said,

1532
01:33:52,032 --> 01:33:57,052
quote, I had it on my iPod shuffle and
I listened to it when I was supposed

1533
01:33:57,052 --> 01:33:58,932
to be asleep every night for years.

1534
01:33:59,372 --> 01:34:03,132
So, shout out to iPod models
for always placing us at a

1535
01:34:03,132 --> 01:34:04,662
very particular moment in time.

1536
01:34:05,002 --> 01:34:05,742
Kyle: out of that quote.

1537
01:34:05,932 --> 01:34:06,222
Cliff: Yep.

1538
01:34:06,372 --> 01:34:07,182
You know that.

1539
01:34:07,362 --> 01:34:11,492
A significant number of people just
pictured a square iPod and nothing else.

1540
01:34:11,722 --> 01:34:15,222
And then everyone else went, why do you
think of that when you think of an iPod?

1541
01:34:15,582 --> 01:34:23,522
So yeah but he, she also mentioned that
she loved how you can hear in real time

1542
01:34:23,562 --> 01:34:28,962
from that EP the audience reaction to
what Jeff Buckley was doing, which is,

1543
01:34:28,972 --> 01:34:32,452
you know, if you haven't heard it said
plainly in everything we've said so far,

1544
01:34:32,702 --> 01:34:38,582
it was connective when people saw him live
and it was participative participatory.

1545
01:34:38,582 --> 01:34:38,962
Yeah.

1546
01:34:39,222 --> 01:34:43,782
And you can imagine that like, not only
can you literally hear the responses,

1547
01:34:43,782 --> 01:34:48,752
yes, but in a very similar way that
we've talked in the past about singular

1548
01:34:48,752 --> 01:34:53,982
vocalists and how they would have these
moments that like, it felt like all the

1549
01:34:53,982 --> 01:34:55,632
lights got turned down everywhere else.

1550
01:34:55,632 --> 01:34:59,272
And there was one spotlight on
planet earth on this human being

1551
01:34:59,272 --> 01:35:01,232
who is performing a vocal that.

1552
01:35:01,697 --> 01:35:06,747
What just echoed and reverberated
seemingly throughout everyone's heart.

1553
01:35:07,017 --> 01:35:10,167
Like these are the types of moments
that he was able to capture.

1554
01:35:10,397 --> 01:35:15,487
At a time that's, honestly, 20, 30
years past when those types of musical

1555
01:35:15,487 --> 01:35:19,227
moments were a lot more prevalent because
of how people were listening to them.

1556
01:35:19,227 --> 01:35:22,767
So it's, it's that much more
impressive that those things were

1557
01:35:22,767 --> 01:35:24,767
happening, uh, in the nineties.

1558
01:35:24,906 --> 01:35:29,656
One last thing that we can mention,
which is super easy and fun, uh, which

1559
01:35:29,656 --> 01:35:32,806
we didn't know about until well, right
before we started recording actually,

1560
01:35:32,806 --> 01:35:38,746
but as the crow flies, not long
from when this episode is released.

1561
01:35:38,836 --> 01:35:39,996
So the, the following

1562
01:35:40,146 --> 01:35:44,156
Kyle: If you're listening to this on
day one, it is the 30th anniversary

1563
01:35:44,156 --> 01:35:45,626
of the release of this record.

1564
01:35:45,836 --> 01:35:50,396
And then I guess three weeks
after the release of this

1565
01:35:50,396 --> 01:35:52,556
episode will be this thing.

1566
01:35:53,151 --> 01:35:53,591
Cliff: Yeah.

1567
01:35:53,601 --> 01:35:59,471
So BBC is doing a 30 years of grace
type documentary or interview type deal.

1568
01:35:59,671 --> 01:36:03,431
But several of the people that
we mentioned are in there,

1569
01:36:03,441 --> 01:36:07,351
including, uh, Phoebe Bridgers
Lana Del Rey is in there as well.

1570
01:36:07,351 --> 01:36:11,001
Like if you, if you can't draw the line
between this dude and Lana Del Rey,

1571
01:36:11,031 --> 01:36:12,991
like I, you might need to start over.

1572
01:36:13,371 --> 01:36:17,251
Um, like it's almost too on the
nose, uh, regardless of kind of how

1573
01:36:17,251 --> 01:36:18,851
you feel about her style of music.

1574
01:36:19,065 --> 01:36:22,045
without trying to oversimplify it,
I mean, you could, you could almost

1575
01:36:22,045 --> 01:36:28,415
see Lana Del Rey's more effeminate
or traditionally feminine versions

1576
01:36:28,855 --> 01:36:31,435
of what Jeff Buckley was doing here.

1577
01:36:31,705 --> 01:36:34,495
And they're Descendants for sure.

1578
01:36:34,845 --> 01:36:38,315
But other people who are a part
of this 30 years of grace thing

1579
01:36:38,315 --> 01:36:43,495
on BBC, Guy Pearce, Nick Cave, Tom
York, Alanis Morissette, right?

1580
01:36:43,495 --> 01:36:48,765
Like a solid list of people that
you probably know as songwriters

1581
01:36:48,995 --> 01:36:54,035
like songwriters with a capital S,
um, are sort of lining up to praise

1582
01:36:54,045 --> 01:36:56,125
this dude and his moment in time.

1583
01:36:56,515 --> 01:37:00,485
And so there is just a,
there is a long tail of.

1584
01:37:00,740 --> 01:37:05,780
People and artists and art that was
inspired by this really singular

1585
01:37:05,780 --> 01:37:07,070
record, which is really cool.

1586
01:37:07,437 --> 01:37:10,437
Kyle: So I'm not going to say
if this record makes you feel

1587
01:37:10,437 --> 01:37:12,136
something, because I don't know.

1588
01:37:12,467 --> 01:37:16,997
That hopefully goes without saying,
but the matter of what to do with

1589
01:37:16,997 --> 01:37:20,887
what you feel our final exercise,
our, our closing thought is always

1590
01:37:20,887 --> 01:37:23,247
what to listen to or what to do next.

1591
01:37:23,797 --> 01:37:25,787
If the piece of music we've
talked about moves you.

1592
01:37:26,087 --> 01:37:29,601
So the first thing is exactly
what you just said is.

1593
01:37:30,192 --> 01:37:36,972
Visit more of the capital S songwriters
who pack emotional information densely in

1594
01:37:37,022 --> 01:37:40,712
into a little piece of proverbial acetate.

1595
01:37:41,352 --> 01:37:43,962
So who are some of those folks for you?

1596
01:37:44,058 --> 01:37:49,388
Cliff: I started having to bucket
them because of how, kind of went

1597
01:37:49,388 --> 01:37:52,088
through loops of realizing again.

1598
01:37:52,258 --> 01:37:55,878
The level of impact that this record
has had and then just trying to

1599
01:37:55,878 --> 01:38:00,208
go back and reorganize the entire
constellation of people that come to mind.

1600
01:38:00,568 --> 01:38:03,518
But so hopefully these kinds
of categories will make sense.

1601
01:38:03,538 --> 01:38:07,648
But so one category, the generally
speaking, men who wear stupid fucking

1602
01:38:07,658 --> 01:38:09,118
hats, but are really good at songwriting.

1603
01:38:09,850 --> 01:38:14,375
uh, so Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan,
Tom Waits, Mark Lennigan, Nick

1604
01:38:14,375 --> 01:38:16,325
Cave, Townes Van Zandt, like.

1605
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:22,710
The men who are on top of their
willingness and ability to be emotionally

1606
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:31,260
stark and write extremely just like
bare feeling, almost literalist type of

1607
01:38:31,360 --> 01:38:33,650
Phrasing and writing and storytelling.

1608
01:38:34,860 --> 01:38:37,300
I think that there's a,
there's a deep lineage there.

1609
01:38:37,540 --> 01:38:40,100
Uh, and I know that you added
people like Mark Lannigan.

1610
01:38:40,110 --> 01:38:42,430
So I'd be curious if that
connects with you as well.

1611
01:38:42,450 --> 01:38:46,600
Kyle: Yeah, I mean, Lanigan for my money,
like I don't really think I like singer

1612
01:38:46,600 --> 01:38:51,855
songwriter stuff too much or when it
gets overly lyrical, but Mark Lanigan is,

1613
01:38:51,865 --> 01:38:53,815
is probably one of my favorite artists.

1614
01:38:54,135 --> 01:38:56,615
Certainly one of my favorite
writers of all time.

1615
01:38:57,005 --> 01:39:00,785
He's been my friend when I've been
in the darkest of the darkness.

1616
01:39:01,175 --> 01:39:05,375
But what I like about this list of guys
that you've put together is I think they

1617
01:39:05,375 --> 01:39:07,725
also represent the kind of career arc.

1618
01:39:07,920 --> 01:39:13,390
That Jeff would have had if he'd stayed
around a long time where all of these guys

1619
01:39:13,710 --> 01:39:18,947
were extremely nonlinear and went where
the inspiration took them and then went

1620
01:39:18,947 --> 01:39:21,267
20 percent farther from thing to thing.

1621
01:39:21,667 --> 01:39:24,887
Bob Dylan is, is one of the
greatest living examples of that,

1622
01:39:24,887 --> 01:39:28,978
where everything is so different
as almost to cause whiplash.

1623
01:39:29,358 --> 01:39:32,308
And right when you think
they're going to zig, they zag.

1624
01:39:32,628 --> 01:39:35,208
Like same also definitely
goes for Nick Cave.

1625
01:39:35,648 --> 01:39:39,838
And we were only just seeing the, the
tiniest little glimmers of that with Jeff

1626
01:39:39,848 --> 01:39:43,628
Buckley, but if we had gotten 25 or 30
years with him, I think we would have been

1627
01:39:43,628 --> 01:39:46,278
astounded by the boundaries that he broke.

1628
01:39:46,288 --> 01:39:48,967
So I think if you want to see
spiritually where it could have

1629
01:39:48,967 --> 01:39:50,927
gone, that's a good list of dudes.

1630
01:39:51,092 --> 01:39:51,522
To.

1631
01:39:52,022 --> 01:39:57,072
To take out for a spin in addition
to just being like really hung out

1632
01:39:57,072 --> 01:40:01,632
to dry emotionally after a binge of
any, any one of those dudes catalogs,

1633
01:40:01,951 --> 01:40:06,821
Cliff: So then another sort of
adjacent category which we can call

1634
01:40:07,031 --> 01:40:13,751
Maybe traditionally unsufferable
white people, um, but, uh, uh,

1635
01:40:13,751 --> 01:40:15,521
a bunch of folks who, who go,

1636
01:40:15,921 --> 01:40:18,261
Kyle: bad grouping
names for great artists.

1637
01:40:19,151 --> 01:40:21,261
Cliff: yeah, well, yeah, it's

1638
01:40:21,271 --> 01:40:25,441
Kyle: I'll take, I'll take Kick Cliff out
the marketing brainstorm for 500 Alec.

1639
01:40:27,436 --> 01:40:29,186
Cliff: Look, I can put
good things in the bucket.

1640
01:40:29,186 --> 01:40:29,796
Just don't let me

1641
01:40:29,821 --> 01:40:29,941
Kyle: That's

1642
01:40:30,146 --> 01:40:30,836
Cliff: the buckets.

1643
01:40:31,166 --> 01:40:31,831
Kyle: what I'm here for.

1644
01:40:31,831 --> 01:40:32,251
I'm here to

1645
01:40:32,256 --> 01:40:32,686
Cliff: Yeah.

1646
01:40:32,761 --> 01:40:33,241
Kyle: on the tape.

1647
01:40:33,241 --> 01:40:33,421
Yeah.

1648
01:40:33,421 --> 01:40:33,422
Yeah.

1649
01:40:33,706 --> 01:40:38,156
Cliff: But okay, but yeah Being
a little bit silly so that we can

1650
01:40:38,156 --> 01:40:41,266
create a caricature kind of a what
we mean so that you can visualize it.

1651
01:40:41,286 --> 01:40:47,796
Okay, so people that I mean by that,
Joni Mitchell, Fiona Apple, uh, Sufjan

1652
01:40:47,796 --> 01:40:54,141
Stevens, Damian Rice like the types
of people who are Transcribed Who are

1653
01:40:54,641 --> 01:41:00,951
choosing every word and every syllable in
a very, very particular way and can get,

1654
01:41:01,161 --> 01:41:07,591
rhythmic with it or can be trying to do
word painting equivalents using folk music

1655
01:41:07,601 --> 01:41:09,311
instead of hip hop or something like that.

1656
01:41:09,311 --> 01:41:15,031
Like, so the types of people who push
really hard into almost wordiness

1657
01:41:15,471 --> 01:41:17,911
or at the very least cleverness.

1658
01:41:17,981 --> 01:41:21,611
In speak as opposed to, you know, the
previous category of folks that we

1659
01:41:21,611 --> 01:41:25,092
talked about, like, Bob Dylan doesn't
give a shit if you think he's clever.

1660
01:41:25,232 --> 01:41:26,692
That was never his whole thing.

1661
01:41:26,702 --> 01:41:27,042
Right.

1662
01:41:27,212 --> 01:41:30,242
Even if you consider him to be,
whereas, you know, some of these

1663
01:41:30,252 --> 01:41:32,872
other folks that we're talking about
are like, when you hear someone

1664
01:41:32,872 --> 01:41:35,322
and you're like, Oh, that's dense.

1665
01:41:35,632 --> 01:41:37,872
Like they thought a lot about that.

1666
01:41:38,132 --> 01:41:39,882
That's sort of a category of people.

1667
01:41:40,122 --> 01:41:42,712
Kyle: Yeah, like when you would
read a poem in school and you'd be

1668
01:41:42,712 --> 01:41:47,302
like, Oh, words can do a lot more
than the words themselves can do.

1669
01:41:47,882 --> 01:41:49,702
And it doesn't necessarily need music.

1670
01:41:49,702 --> 01:41:51,022
That's pure.

1671
01:41:51,537 --> 01:41:55,077
pure power of human being
and of consciousness.

1672
01:41:55,547 --> 01:42:00,897
I would add to that list Chan Marshall,
Cat Power, one time of Cabbage Town,

1673
01:42:00,897 --> 01:42:07,147
East Atlanta fame phenomenal wordsmith
Bonnie Prince Billy, Will Oldham who I

1674
01:42:07,167 --> 01:42:11,857
just saw at Big Ears in, in Knoxville
and was once again blown away by his

1675
01:42:11,857 --> 01:42:16,297
connection to the folk tradition and
his ability to do a lot with the little.

1676
01:42:16,657 --> 01:42:22,057
Word wise, uh, silver Jews, I
think a lot are a lot of other

1677
01:42:22,057 --> 01:42:25,307
artists point to him as an example.

1678
01:42:25,307 --> 01:42:28,867
And I don't listen to him often, but when
I do, I'm like, holy shit, I need to come

1679
01:42:28,867 --> 01:42:30,937
back to this and like study every word.

1680
01:42:31,462 --> 01:42:36,125
John Prine, who's pretty recently passed,
Brandi Carlile and to connect to Phoebe

1681
01:42:36,125 --> 01:42:41,045
Bridgers, Julian Baker I think is an
up and comer in the tradition partly

1682
01:42:41,045 --> 01:42:45,595
because, like you, Cliff, she's from
the Tennessee religious tradition and

1683
01:42:46,025 --> 01:42:50,425
has been using words to try to outrun
that tornado for quite some time.

1684
01:42:51,055 --> 01:42:52,655
Cliff: a couple more categories.

1685
01:42:52,915 --> 01:42:57,705
Um, one, one relatively serious
bucket to label, one far

1686
01:42:57,705 --> 01:42:59,195
less serious bucket to label.

1687
01:42:59,545 --> 01:43:06,395
The next one is Powerful vocalists
who are creating like once in a

1688
01:43:06,395 --> 01:43:12,875
lifetime types of moments, but
just stand out unbelievable people.

1689
01:43:13,045 --> 01:43:16,285
So just, that's the best
label I can give to this.

1690
01:43:16,295 --> 01:43:18,355
Cause some of the, the people
that we've thought about, right.

1691
01:43:18,525 --> 01:43:20,995
Nina Simone, Billie Holiday.

1692
01:43:21,250 --> 01:43:22,350
We mentioned Prince.

1693
01:43:22,620 --> 01:43:25,190
Um, I think Marvin Gaye is a good example.

1694
01:43:25,190 --> 01:43:27,810
And you can go back to our
recent episode on that one and

1695
01:43:27,810 --> 01:43:29,200
hear us kind of talk about that.

1696
01:43:29,490 --> 01:43:34,310
But people in that, that vein of
like the strange fruit type moment.

1697
01:43:34,615 --> 01:43:39,025
Of just like, they knew exactly
what they were doing, could do it on

1698
01:43:39,025 --> 01:43:42,960
command, did do it on command when
they wanted to in a lot of senses

1699
01:43:42,970 --> 01:43:47,990
had full kind of control over their
capabilities and careers, um, because

1700
01:43:47,990 --> 01:43:49,640
of how immensely talented they were.

1701
01:43:50,090 --> 01:43:50,750
Kyle: Absolutely.

1702
01:43:50,790 --> 01:43:55,210
Probably my favorite category
of these so far, I would add Ray

1703
01:43:55,210 --> 01:43:57,500
Charles Jeff Buckley covered.

1704
01:43:58,045 --> 01:44:01,165
Don't let the sun catch you crying,
which is one of those beautifully

1705
01:44:01,165 --> 01:44:04,735
emotive power of the performance brings
out the power of the words moments.

1706
01:44:05,185 --> 01:44:08,335
And then Stevie Wonder, if you like
music at all, we don't, we don't

1707
01:44:08,335 --> 01:44:12,205
have to tell you about the power of
early seventies Stevie in particular.

1708
01:44:12,215 --> 01:44:14,215
And there's just so many moments.

1709
01:44:14,225 --> 01:44:19,215
If you watch if you watch Atlanta, Donald
Glover show on FX, uh, the Teddy Perkins

1710
01:44:19,215 --> 01:44:22,445
episode is bookended by Stevie Wonder.

1711
01:44:23,085 --> 01:44:29,405
songs and at the end plays evil and
in a very small way connected somewhat

1712
01:44:29,405 --> 01:44:34,165
spiritually to Billy doing strange fruit
in that club with the soul spotlight.

1713
01:44:34,545 --> 01:44:39,275
The context of that episode
met with the power of Stevie's

1714
01:44:39,305 --> 01:44:43,865
performance of evil on that song
really makes the words come to life.

1715
01:44:44,265 --> 01:44:46,015
So a small but instructive example there.

1716
01:44:46,217 --> 01:44:49,909
Cliff: So we, we sort of went in three
different buckets, all of which are

1717
01:44:50,119 --> 01:44:54,689
honestly pretty safe musical bets for
you to dip into and grab some artists.

1718
01:44:54,689 --> 01:44:58,589
If you weren't familiar with anyone,
we mentioned the last one I'm going

1719
01:44:58,589 --> 01:45:02,439
to freely admit is sort of like, you
can take it or leave it depending on

1720
01:45:02,439 --> 01:45:04,229
where you're at and how things hit you.

1721
01:45:04,649 --> 01:45:06,019
And that would be the.

1722
01:45:06,784 --> 01:45:12,434
in sincerity, the emo lineage of
emotionally intense musical writing.

1723
01:45:12,714 --> 01:45:13,134
Okay.

1724
01:45:13,464 --> 01:45:18,354
There are examples I'll give of people who
are very inspired and I won't necessarily

1725
01:45:18,384 --> 01:45:20,354
agree that all their music is great.

1726
01:45:20,594 --> 01:45:26,309
But I think you can also see again,
an entire Potential genre of music

1727
01:45:26,359 --> 01:45:32,259
heavily inspired by this kind of great
moment of emotion and expression.

1728
01:45:32,509 --> 01:45:35,919
So bands and that would be
chris Carraba fronted bands.

1729
01:45:36,189 --> 01:45:41,329
In my opinion, he had various success
over his career in translating

1730
01:45:41,569 --> 01:45:47,129
emotional intimacy and intensity
into songwriting, but especially that

1731
01:45:47,139 --> 01:45:48,729
first further seems forever record.

1732
01:45:48,729 --> 01:45:49,519
The moon is down.

1733
01:45:49,819 --> 01:45:53,429
That's one that I like because it
got in before I could tell myself

1734
01:45:53,429 --> 01:45:54,489
I shouldn't like that record.

1735
01:45:55,049 --> 01:46:01,539
But like the, some of the moments that
give you like the words are sort of

1736
01:46:01,579 --> 01:46:05,869
perfect every now and then, and gives you
a visceral feeling of the thing that's

1737
01:46:05,869 --> 01:46:10,809
being described and puts you in like a
moment of time, which helps you to recall

1738
01:46:10,839 --> 01:46:16,579
a feeling like that sort of capability you
can see play out in some of the better.

1739
01:46:16,919 --> 01:46:19,679
Songwriter driven emo bands.

1740
01:46:19,739 --> 01:46:23,829
So in addition to Further Seems Forever
and potentially Dashboard Confessional,

1741
01:46:23,999 --> 01:46:27,649
if that's a thing you can get into
other examples of that with varying

1742
01:46:27,649 --> 01:46:31,949
levels of success Connor Oberst, like
Bright Eyes, that whole approach,

1743
01:46:32,229 --> 01:46:33,949
Kyle: Phoebe Bridgers approved.

1744
01:46:34,459 --> 01:46:34,819
Cliff: Yeah.

1745
01:46:36,239 --> 01:46:36,539
Yeah.

1746
01:46:36,759 --> 01:46:39,759
And I mean, he's too much of a sad
boy for me, but like, you can see

1747
01:46:39,759 --> 01:46:41,559
the lineage and you can feel it.

1748
01:46:42,801 --> 01:46:47,971
Yeah, and then in a lighter and more
accessible sense, honestly, so early

1749
01:46:48,001 --> 01:46:52,033
Jimmy Eat World records Like Static
Prevails and Clarity and all that stuff.

1750
01:46:52,583 --> 01:46:57,183
The band Mineral is another Like
band I would kind of recommend on the

1751
01:46:57,183 --> 01:47:02,533
emo fringes who thought more deeply
about their songwriting and even the

1752
01:47:02,533 --> 01:47:07,538
more recent I kind of hate it being
called an emo resurgence in general.

1753
01:47:07,748 --> 01:47:10,548
But there are a lot of bands
in that vein who exist today.

1754
01:47:10,708 --> 01:47:14,158
One of them is the world is a beautiful
place and I'm no longer afraid to die.

1755
01:47:14,408 --> 01:47:19,758
And they also definitely channel
this whole, like, I want to pack

1756
01:47:19,818 --> 01:47:24,658
feeling, emotion, word, narrative,
everything I can into as many things

1757
01:47:24,658 --> 01:47:26,988
as I can say inside of this song.

1758
01:47:27,278 --> 01:47:31,038
And let the sort of nostalgia
of the music support it.

1759
01:47:31,558 --> 01:47:37,348
That's a, like I said, that whole bucket
is less serious and in my opinion, less

1760
01:47:37,378 --> 01:47:41,318
consequential than the other buckets that
we've talked about, but it's nevertheless

1761
01:47:41,328 --> 01:47:43,088
like a direction that you can chase.

1762
01:47:43,118 --> 01:47:45,938
And if you're someone who loves some
of that music, you can appreciate

1763
01:47:46,198 --> 01:47:47,358
where some of it came from.

1764
01:47:47,543 --> 01:47:50,773
Kyle: The way you just described the
world as a beautiful place reminded

1765
01:47:50,773 --> 01:47:55,813
me of seeing when we saw the armed
together in Brooklyn and like the idea

1766
01:47:55,813 --> 01:48:01,153
of hyper pop is sort of, it's like a
metal take on Jeff Buckley in that way.

1767
01:48:01,173 --> 01:48:04,793
It's let me bring it all up to the
front of the mix, spiritually speaking,

1768
01:48:04,803 --> 01:48:06,673
and, and hit you with it like a hammer.

1769
01:48:07,193 --> 01:48:08,673
That that's another pretty cool band.

1770
01:48:08,673 --> 01:48:11,793
It doesn't sound anything like
Jeff Buckley, but if you like

1771
01:48:11,803 --> 01:48:14,213
getting your face smashed in with
feelings, that's another way to go.

1772
01:48:15,892 --> 01:48:19,492
Cliff: so we've talked in practical
terms about what you can do.

1773
01:48:19,772 --> 01:48:21,622
And yeah, this, this
comes up pretty often.

1774
01:48:21,632 --> 01:48:26,562
Yes, you can always sort of chase more
music from what inspired you, but just,

1775
01:48:26,562 --> 01:48:30,732
you know, Saying it more clearly, the
reason we would even provide you with

1776
01:48:30,752 --> 01:48:36,642
buckets is so that you have more context
and knowledge to go more meaningfully

1777
01:48:37,082 --> 01:48:41,922
understand and discover more music,
not just sort of abstractly clicking

1778
01:48:41,942 --> 01:48:46,502
through artists in an app and playing
singles and all that stuff, but actually

1779
01:48:46,732 --> 01:48:50,702
understanding what it is that you're
chasing when you do it, um, I think

1780
01:48:50,702 --> 01:48:56,042
becomes, um, Well, I don't think it is a
helpful way to understand music, discover

1781
01:48:56,042 --> 01:49:01,812
more artists and specifically makes you
better at discovering the things that

1782
01:49:01,812 --> 01:49:07,782
you would not really expect yourself to
jive with, understand, or appreciate.

1783
01:49:08,332 --> 01:49:13,132
And so, on top of letting this drive
you to discover other things that were

1784
01:49:13,499 --> 01:49:16,399
inspired by and driven by this music.

1785
01:49:16,559 --> 01:49:19,529
I also think that there is in.

1786
01:49:20,069 --> 01:49:24,439
introspection aspect of what
this project means at all.

1787
01:49:24,449 --> 01:49:28,979
What that album meant that you can
sort of inhabit and think about, what

1788
01:49:28,979 --> 01:49:33,679
does it mean to for lack of a better
term, Jeff Buckley, grace, some of the

1789
01:49:33,679 --> 01:49:38,014
things that are going on for you and
how you can think about what's going on.

1790
01:49:38,014 --> 01:49:42,034
You know, what is oftentimes like,
you know, we mentioned in, in laughed

1791
01:49:42,034 --> 01:49:46,724
about no matter how complex or advanced
it all is, a lot of this stuff is

1792
01:49:46,724 --> 01:49:48,874
still just like, I'm sad about girl.

1793
01:49:50,779 --> 01:49:54,549
and I think to me, like that
gives, that gives me some hope.

1794
01:49:55,109 --> 01:50:00,789
That's a reminder to me because when I
wake up in life hits me and I'm like,

1795
01:50:01,019 --> 01:50:03,209
I'm real wound up about some dumb shit.

1796
01:50:03,861 --> 01:50:07,581
there's a beauty that Kyle, you
specifically have helped me to see

1797
01:50:07,611 --> 01:50:13,071
through this record in going into those
feelings, knowing that you don't have

1798
01:50:13,071 --> 01:50:18,181
to live there or be a permanent sad boy
or collapse into nothingness because you

1799
01:50:18,181 --> 01:50:23,491
experienced emotion, but actually sort of
willingly pushing yourself down into that.

1800
01:50:23,811 --> 01:50:24,561
And I think.

1801
01:50:25,066 --> 01:50:29,456
Thinking through what this record
meant and how it was approached

1802
01:50:29,823 --> 01:50:33,633
gives you some ways to do that for
yourself in a way that's maybe kind

1803
01:50:33,983 --> 01:50:35,243
that I hadn't thought about before.

1804
01:50:35,358 --> 01:50:35,688
Kyle: Yeah.

1805
01:50:35,963 --> 01:50:41,943
the kids on Tik Tok are saying to
romanticize your own life and I think

1806
01:50:41,953 --> 01:50:49,088
to boil it down to just, I'm sad about
girl or just I have big feelings.

1807
01:50:49,488 --> 01:50:55,968
Is only like part one Action and then
reaction is go diffuse big feelings

1808
01:50:55,978 --> 01:50:58,938
all over the big wild world Like
this dude was living in new york

1809
01:50:58,998 --> 01:51:03,008
doing an extremely new york thing
and just the everything is alive.

1810
01:51:03,008 --> 01:51:07,108
Everything is breathing this of New
York and constantly having more around

1811
01:51:07,108 --> 01:51:11,148
every, every corner to discover is
what made this record so potent.

1812
01:51:11,215 --> 01:51:15,755
I hope that you can use this as an
opportunity to romanticize your own

1813
01:51:15,755 --> 01:51:19,055
life and to bring out that beauty
for others because, uh, the world's

1814
01:51:19,055 --> 01:51:22,035
fucked right now and people are lonely.

1815
01:51:22,335 --> 01:51:27,365
And Society has all but come to a grinding
halt because we are alone together.

1816
01:51:27,375 --> 01:51:32,815
So like go be with people and
go role model that it's okay for

1817
01:51:32,835 --> 01:51:34,895
like interactions to not go well.

1818
01:51:34,925 --> 01:51:38,055
And what, like, we have a big
hump that we need to collectively

1819
01:51:38,055 --> 01:51:39,415
get over as a society.

1820
01:51:40,215 --> 01:51:43,165
Like the vibe's just going
to be weird as we learn, we

1821
01:51:43,165 --> 01:51:45,355
relearn how to be people again.

1822
01:51:45,495 --> 01:51:48,815
Cause we, uh, had a big
cultural reset a few years ago.

1823
01:51:49,175 --> 01:51:49,935
I'm like, this is.

1824
01:51:50,625 --> 01:51:53,405
Super top of mind for me all the time.

1825
01:51:53,505 --> 01:51:58,105
That we all, we all quite obviously
need to touch grass and touch each

1826
01:51:58,105 --> 01:52:02,355
other consensually and remember,
you know, remember once again,

1827
01:52:02,355 --> 01:52:05,345
that life and the other people
in it can in fact be beautiful.

1828
01:52:05,595 --> 01:52:06,445
And.

1829
01:52:06,802 --> 01:52:10,272
Buckley talked about how he liked
the small cafes, the small gigs,

1830
01:52:10,272 --> 01:52:14,042
because it was quote, where people
come to drink and be with friends to

1831
01:52:14,042 --> 01:52:17,052
get laid and fall in love, or maybe
to forget and even get depressed.

1832
01:52:17,282 --> 01:52:18,652
It's an emotional kind of place.

1833
01:52:18,662 --> 01:52:22,922
So just like go be in the world with
emotions and give your world grace.

1834
01:52:23,312 --> 01:52:27,152
And I think the last thing that I'll
say is to once again, give credit

1835
01:52:27,172 --> 01:52:30,202
to Daphne Brooks, who put it so
beautifully in the epilogue of her book.

1836
01:52:30,752 --> 01:52:32,022
Perhaps grace is.

1837
01:52:32,187 --> 01:52:34,957
Such a thing of beauty because it's
a musical work that like the artist

1838
01:52:34,957 --> 01:52:36,777
himself on the cover is so aware.

1839
01:52:37,177 --> 01:52:40,287
To say grace before a meal is to
give thanks and be mindful, present,

1840
01:52:40,297 --> 01:52:43,237
aware of, and grateful for not only
the nourishment before you, but for

1841
01:52:43,237 --> 01:52:46,947
the long line of rituals, activities,
and people who made it possible for

1842
01:52:46,947 --> 01:52:48,327
this food to arrive at your table.

1843
01:52:49,052 --> 01:52:52,182
Grace is a work of beauty because
it's unafraid to stretch itself

1844
01:52:52,202 --> 01:52:55,112
out in full gratitude to all that
has come before it, for all that

1845
01:52:55,112 --> 01:52:57,872
has made this work of art possible,
and for all that it might inspire.

1846
01:52:58,442 --> 01:53:01,462
Or as Jeff Buckley himself said,
grace is what matters in anything,

1847
01:53:01,472 --> 01:53:05,382
especially life, especially
growth, tragedy, pain, love, death.

1848
01:53:05,392 --> 01:53:07,462
It's a quality that I admire very greatly.

1849
01:53:07,772 --> 01:53:09,662
It keeps you from reaching
for the gun too quickly.

1850
01:53:09,722 --> 01:53:11,792
It keeps you from destroying
things too foolishly.

1851
01:53:12,172 --> 01:53:14,162
In short, grace keeps you alive.