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Cliff: You're listening to
Toondig, a conversation between two

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lifelong friends about the power
of music, one album at a time.

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I am Cliff Seal.

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Kyle: And I'm Kyle Stapleton.

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Each episode, we talk about a single
album in depth, unpacking it through

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conversation to understand what makes
it worth appreciating and learning a

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little bit about life along the way.

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Cliff: If you're listening for the first
time because we're covering an artist

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or a record you love, we can promise you
will learn something new or gain a new

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perspective by the end of the episode.

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Kyle: And if you've stuck with us for
multiple episodes, you know, by now that

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you're bound to expand your horizons as
we share clear entry points for artists.

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You may have never tried
to get into before.

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Today, we're talking about,
I want you by Marvin Gaye.

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We are back.

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Cliff: Once again, dragged into
submission by the people that we've

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met out in this world who seem to
think that you and I talking into

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microphones together about music
create some sort of joy in their life.

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Which I continue to be both
delighted by and shocked by.

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Kyle: have such a hard time rectifying
the, steadily deteriorating hell hole.

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That is the internet landscape with
the great things that have been

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wrought from talking about music and
throwing it into the internet void.

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like getting hit up by a.

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Vinyl bar in Bangkok, Thailand who were
playing some of our music recommendations

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at their listening station.

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Cliff: Yep

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Kyle: How does that happen?

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Music is a, is a beautiful
thing far beyond us.

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And I think we're going to be
talking about a particularly

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beautiful piece of music today.

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Quite excited about it.

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It's the, I think, longest break we've
ever taken from the one record at a time.

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We've done some really cool sort of
diversions that I'm, pleased as punch

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with, namely deep diving into heavy music.

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but it's good to be back with like the
OG format it is a little different now

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though, because it's tied into this sort
of new chapter that we're exploring.

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We somewhat psychopathically built
a whole calendar, with a different

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album recommendation every day.

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Precision engineered for maximum diversity
of all stripes day over day in your life.

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So 366 new albums taking the algorithm
and the stupidity and the junk out of it.

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Just one new thing to focus on each
day in a little bit of meditative

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fashion and to your point, just like.

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gobsmacked that a one single human
person that's not us cares at all

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but just the volume and passion
of the response has been crazy.

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Cliff: all we can do is trust the joy
that we are putting together and then

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putting back out about just music in
general, but you know, we'll probably

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talk more about this not only in this
episode, but in future ones, we've got an,

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a special focus now, I think on learning
to extract joy from music as a discipline,

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in any scenario, in any context, almost
no matter what you're listening to.

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And I'm sure we'll talk more about.

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Some of the reasoning behind that
calendar idea, but the way that having a

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predetermined thing to listen to each day
puts you in a different position relative

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to music and gives you the challenge of
saying, okay, I don't get choice today.

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Today I get this one bit of
music and today I'm going to

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figure out how to like it.

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and that's a fun

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Kyle: or you know, think about, think
different thoughts, and then walk

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away and never listen to it again,
but be glad that you did the thing.

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Cliff: like is relative, I guess, but
the ability to appreciate something,

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not just in a kind of bland historical
sense, but in a like, I believe that

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there's something in this that I can
get out of it, no matter what it is,

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and that is easy enough we're, we
constantly find ourselves To be clever.

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So, naturally, the calendar starts
with something like Dark Side of the

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Moon by Pink Floyd, so that we could
get a bunch of people on board with

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this idea who are like, oh yeah, I'm
gonna be listening to a bunch of stuff

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that makes me feel cool every day.

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And then, it's not too many weeks before
you hit, uh Oops, I did it again, or

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something else that maybe otherwise
confronts your idea of what sort of

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music you're supposed to be listening
to to keep up the pretense of who you

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think you are relative to all that music.

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I know that we found a lot of joy
even just in that moment of hearing

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from especially Some white guys
who were like, so you want me to

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listen to Britney Spears today?

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Like I do and I'm surprised
that you're surprised

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Kyle: I will be doing it as well

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Cliff: Absolutely.

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I had a great day.

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Yeah.

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Kyle: I especially like, and have
come to appreciate and reflecting

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after a few months of this exercise,
that you are no longer the same

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person at the end of the day that
you were at the beginning of the day.

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You either are thinking about a record you
already know in the context of where you

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are in life now, or And like just being
forced to listen to an album you like

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is different than selecting it yourself,
like different headspace entirely, or

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you have been served something that,
the tentacles of the algorithm wouldn't

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get you to, it was just like total
hard left back of the vinyl bin that

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you never got around to thumbing to.

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And then you know, you know something
different or you've been somewhere in

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the world or you've, you've traveled
to a place in inner space that

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you've never explored, you know, just
like all that excites me so much.

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And as we get older, as the shows and
records and miles and life experiences

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accumulate, and it gets harder and harder
to find the high, I guess, so to speak.

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I'm more filled with
gratitude than I've ever been.

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That music can still do for me
what it did when I was three years

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old and my parents put on a record
in the corner of the living room.

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I don't know of anything else
in the world that can do that.

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Cliff: We're gonna end up talking a
lot about that idea how to apply it

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And then how to get really good at it.

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I think one thing that we are leaning
into, me and you, and we're trusting other

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people who have told us that we help them
in this way, and we're trusting ourselves

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because we help each other in this way,
but we're leaning into the idea that we

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have some amount of talent about doing
this with pretty much any amount of music.

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Kyle: I don't know about any of that shit.

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I just know.

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I just know.

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I feel compelled to do it.

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I'm just going to keep doing it, whether
there's anything to do with it or not.

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It just is such a joy that there is
to do with it and other people kind

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of get excited to do the same things.

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Cliff: Yeah, 100%.

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But every time we lean into that idea
and just share how we're thinking

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about finding a way to experience a
new bit of music, we hear from someone

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else who says, honestly, something
just totally unexpected, either like

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we get a message about, I'd never
thought to listen to this, or I can't

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believe I've never listened to this,
or I've never paid attention to it

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that way or I'm going to draw a visual
interpretation of everything I'm

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listening to every day because this is
changing my life in a really specific

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way, like this idea that what we can do
Not only in general, but specifically

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in these podcast episodes is not only
talk about albums the way we have

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in the past, which we've heard from
people are really fun to listen to.

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And we teach something, uh, and
we learn something and we learn to

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appreciate something different than
we did before all that's still true.

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And we want to carry all that
stuff forward and we want to

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give interesting things and not
just sit for an hour and give.

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Blank, dumb opinions about certain things
and how we like certain genres and not,

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but instead to go really specifically into
not only what about the music makes it

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interesting, but specifically, as we'll
talk about in this episode and others.

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Real legitimate listening exercises that
we can do to extract things because it

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turns out that me and you, Kyle, are
doing a lot of these things, whether

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we're preparing for a podcast episode
or whether we're just trying to figure

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out if that new Escuela Grind EP is as
good as we hoped it was going to be.

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In either case, we know how
to sit down with a thing.

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And try to get some stuff out of it.

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And if we aren't sure where to go,
we can prompt ourselves with a few

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things and try to figure out how
to listen actively or passively.

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And so that's going to be intertwined
into more of what we talk about and more

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of what we experience when it comes to
these records, because we can teach other

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people how to see things that we don't
see yet, because they can have their own

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experience with it just by exercising
some, honestly, just discipline.

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Learning to listen to music and love
it as a discipline and learning to

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get better at approaching it that
way and seeing what else kind of

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unfolds in life when you do that.

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Kyle: You know, it hadn't occurred
to me until just now, and you didn't

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say it exactly this way, but like the
idea that our opinions don't matter.

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At all, what we think or don't
think of the music as part

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of our personal experience.

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I think what has made this podcast
special to me is we're just sort of laying

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ourselves bare and growing as we go and
hopefully giving people permission to.

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We're inviting people
to grow alongside us.

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it's such a waste of time exercise
to say, This is good or this is

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bad, or this record was better for
this artist than this other one.

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You and I definitely have all those
feelings and we air that stuff out

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constantly in our texts, but I think
what's valuable in the forum is just

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like what What can music do for us
and what's happening here with this

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album or this song or this moment?

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That is like other things that we
have experienced and grown from

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or what is totally unique And
you know, how is that sort of a

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microcosm of the human experience?

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Anyway, all that's very heady.

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so thanks for bearing with us on that.

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But I hope what you take away from that
is that we're excited to get back at it.

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We were a little pent up, I think,
from being away for so long.

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So with the calendar, we are taking
one album a month to sort of zoom in on

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and talk at greater length because the
calendar is just sort of here it is.

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Enjoy it.

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Endorsement implicit.

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but it's nice to dig in and unpack
and we didn't get around to it

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right at the top of the year.

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But April, the starting of the spring,
the arguable real start, real first month

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of the year, is as good a time as any.

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And this is a great one.

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the late great Marvin Gaye.

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Cliff: In classic form for us, a
record That is complex to approach

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and enjoy, made by a human being.

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It was complex to approach and enjoy.

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At a time, that was complex
to approach and enjoy.

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And we can hold all of
these things together.

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And to your point, Not worry about whether
it's good capital G or bad capital B and

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try to put it into a column one way or
the other because it's a really, it lacks

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a lot of nuance and it steals a lot of
joy to try to categorize things that way

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or to judge them before you get there.

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And so to that end, this is a
fantastic record to think about.

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How we can not only let the music
come to us and show us things and

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give us appreciation for Musicality,
and production, and music theory,

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and instrumentation, and lyrics, and
people moaning in the background.

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Um,

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Kyle: So much, moaning, dude.

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Cliff: I learned so much about
party records thanks to this album.

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Um, but we can have all of that,
and we can still have the backdrop

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of understanding, as best we could,
who Marvin Gaye was at this time.

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Who these people are that he wrote.

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Semi wrote this record about who he's
singing to their ages his ages like

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Relationships people involved like it's
such a web of people and things that

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come together to create these Monolithic
albums that we look back on as singular

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points in history And so it's a great
opportunity for us to step right back in

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Pick a gnarly one apart and look at all
the good stuff that that's inside of it

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While also acknowledging some of the,
the rough stuff that's there as well.

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Kyle: this record is, everything that's
great about music because it works.

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Sort of both wavelengths, right?

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You can put it on and no, no, like
never seen a picture of Marvin Gaye.

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No, absolutely nothing about the man or
anything we're going to talk about and

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just be like, damn, this is something.

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but context also deeply enriches what
you're hearing and not just like you

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said on the literal sonic production.

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And playing level, but sort of
the, the stories that are behind

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it and help it pack a punch.

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So I think like exercise number
one is if you've never heard it

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before, stop the tape, stop the tape
now and go listen to the record.

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Totally cold.

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I would almost give anything to be
able to have never heard it at all as a

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fully formed presently listening adult.

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And then come back and let's talk
again and choose our own adventure.

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Cliff: Yep.

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That's always the first order of
business if you pull up this podcast

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and you haven't heard the thing we're

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Kyle: Start with them, not with us.

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Don't let us be the
first word on the thing.

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Cliff: Oh, man.

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Yes, we really don't want to
shape your first time experience

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of music if we can help it.

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We'd much rather give you a thing to
think about when you listen to it for

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the second, fifth, tenth, and fiftieth
times later on cause that's when the

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magic really starts to happen, I think.

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Kyle: Normally when we record, I'm at
like the 40th listen or so, and then it.

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And then we say a bunch of things,
and then I think about those things

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when we go back to listen to it.

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And I, since we have started doing this
podcast, have increasingly gotten this

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feeling that I never really started
understanding or liking a record.

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And we've talked about some of
my favorite records ever until

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we've recorded the episode.

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Like I just, I, I love them so much
more than I ever thought I could.

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So record episode back to the
record as quickly as possible.

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Cliff: And without putting too
much formality around all of

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it, because we still want to
keep this really conversational

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because that is how TuneDig works.

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But, we do have a few kind of tent
poles that I think we've decided

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to set up for future episodes.

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And I think it's good to just
give a heads up that these are

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kind of the places we'll be going.

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First of all, we've talked about
this in past episodes, sort of.

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casually.

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But one sort of nearly religious maxim
that we have here is if we are going to

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sit in front of microphones and talk about
music and then put it on the internet for

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people to hear, one thing we want to avoid
as best we can is just Raw conjecture.

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So not just I think a thing is good
or bad, or I think a thing was good or

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bad, but also trying really hard not
to fill in gaps from stories about what

247
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was going on for the artist at the time,
or what was going on in the production,

248
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or what was going on with the music.

249
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It's really easy to hear a story.

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And fill in those holes with like what
you think about what that person was

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doing or going through And getting sort
of telling yourself a story about the

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music And so we really want to try to
avoid that as best we can not because

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this is the hardcore history podcast
but because we would much rather you

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have a Factually based idea of what was
happening and if we don't know a detail

255
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we don't know a detail That's a gap.

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You can go figure it out when you
listen to the music, or it can just

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be something that we don't know.

258
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But we try really hard to just avoid
sitting and spinning through things

259
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we think so much about the record.

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And so, in service of that, we
want to do two kind of big chunks.

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Of context about a record first history
and context So history and context,

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uh is never actually objective.

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It has to be written down It
has to be a story that you

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read back to yourself, right?

265
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So we sort of break reality immediately,
but as much as we can trying to give

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you Like factual contextual information
about the record to help you understand

267
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why, who, where, all that sort of thing.

268
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Right.

269
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Some of the interesting trivia and
tidbits we've talked about over

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the years for records will still
fit into that bucket for sure.

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But then related to that and sort
of separate from it, though, we also

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want to make sure that we're touching
on what we find to be the artist's

273
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intent around the particular album.

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And so, again, that is.

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Different than us trying to assume
what intent is, that's more about how

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can we go back and look at interviews?

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How can we go back and read liner notes?

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How can we speak to, ideally
professionals or authors or experts

279
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on what was happening at a particular
time when an album was made?

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and be inquisitive about
the artist's intent.

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Knowing that it is an inherently
subjective thing to begin with.

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But, knowing that an artist had
an intention for a record can

283
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help shape it in a particular way.

284
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That's, you know, diametrically different
from just a fact about that record itself.

285
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So, we want to give history and context.

286
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We also want to try as best we can
to represent artist's intent using

287
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source material, for pretty much
all of that whenever possible.

288
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And then lastly, something that I think we
probably allowed ourselves to be inspired

289
00:18:26,420 --> 00:18:31,756
from our own, podcast offshoot, uh, as
we did Friday, heavy episodes, which

290
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were really focused on heavy music and
were much shorter form in their episodes.

291
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One thing that we did was we talked
much more about how to make cultural

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impacts and how the music from, Punk,
hardcore, drone, all sorts of different

293
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genres created societal impact or energy
to create further societal impact.

294
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And so in that sense, we also want to
make sure that we're touching on how

295
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music impacted the culture around us.

296
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And that could be.

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Something as straightforward as, you
know, music that ended up being inspired,

298
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which we'll talk about today, right?

299
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People who loved this record
and did something with it later

300
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on as another form of music.

301
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But also as we'll talk about from
this record, I mean, the artwork

302
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itself has its own story that we could
talk about for 30 minutes minimum.

303
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About not only where it came from,
but what it may have inspired

304
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after that and who was involved.

305
00:19:30,105 --> 00:19:34,605
and so, thinking deeply again about what
was going on at the time an album was

306
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made, what's the history and context,
what did the artist mean as best we

307
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can understand now from when they were
actually trying to make this piece of art.

308
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With, you know, usually a series of
collaborators and then lastly, what do

309
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we see as the impact from this music
so that we can not only interpret

310
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and enjoy it ourselves personally,
but we can get a better idea of what

311
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music ends up meaning to people who.

312
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For the most part are generally just
different from us And in this particular

313
00:20:04,845 --> 00:20:08,855
case, I don't just mean people who
are not white dudes Although white

314
00:20:08,855 --> 00:20:13,495
dudes have a unique opportunity to
radically experience different cultures

315
00:20:13,505 --> 00:20:18,365
if they'll open their minds to it on
a pretty regular basis through music

316
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Kyle: And if you've never seen a picture
of us or can't make inferences from the

317
00:20:23,482 --> 00:20:26,069
voices you're listening to, we white.

318
00:20:26,436 --> 00:20:27,356
We've been Affleck,

319
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anyway, that was longer windup than I
think we've ever done on an episode.

320
00:20:31,591 --> 00:20:35,785
Let's talk about, I want you
released, right around the spring

321
00:20:35,795 --> 00:20:38,675
equinox, mid March of 1976.

322
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Cliff: Absolutely.

323
00:20:39,882 --> 00:20:45,732
The record we're talking about today,
I feel the best quick summary to start

324
00:20:45,732 --> 00:20:48,652
with is this one sentence overview.

325
00:20:49,019 --> 00:20:50,636
Quote, It's difficult.

326
00:20:51,003 --> 00:20:51,663
It's horny.

327
00:20:52,398 --> 00:20:53,998
And it's definitely not for everyone.

328
00:20:54,738 --> 00:20:55,548
That's fantastic.

329
00:20:55,718 --> 00:21:00,198
You could probably apply that to almost
any record that we cover on this podcast.

330
00:21:00,598 --> 00:21:01,388
I like it a lot.

331
00:21:01,498 --> 00:21:05,478
Those are three things that
align with my personal values.

332
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So

333
00:21:06,205 --> 00:21:06,575
I want

334
00:21:06,610 --> 00:21:11,050
Kyle: The, best, I'm constantly in
search of the best title for a memoir,

335
00:21:11,050 --> 00:21:15,060
opening line of a memoir, and that
is the new global high water mark.

336
00:21:15,427 --> 00:21:17,837
Cliff: difficult, horny, and
definitely not for everybody.

337
00:21:18,204 --> 00:21:19,484
This is a very good t shirt.

338
00:21:19,544 --> 00:21:22,484
I'm going to be advertised
about on Instagram soon.

339
00:21:22,834 --> 00:21:23,514
I'm sure.

340
00:21:23,881 --> 00:21:28,261
So, I Want You was
released March 16th, 1976.

341
00:21:28,628 --> 00:21:32,658
And just to be really clear and go
ahead and put it in the context that we

342
00:21:32,658 --> 00:21:34,628
need from an artist perspective, right?

343
00:21:34,628 --> 00:21:39,898
This is the follow up to Let's Get
It On, which came out in 1973, which

344
00:21:39,898 --> 00:21:42,388
was the follow up to What's Going On.

345
00:21:42,621 --> 00:21:47,671
Kyle: With the soundtrack to Troubleman
and a Diana Ross collab album and

346
00:21:47,671 --> 00:21:50,311
some other stuff sprinkled in between.

347
00:21:50,806 --> 00:21:51,296
Cliff: Yeah.

348
00:21:51,665 --> 00:21:54,265
Kyle: I said earlier that the album
works beautifully with or without

349
00:21:54,265 --> 00:21:59,965
context, but there are two pieces of
context that I think are critical.

350
00:22:00,420 --> 00:22:03,377
For fully appreciating
what's happening here.

351
00:22:03,397 --> 00:22:06,147
Just like the first sort
of wow moments for me.

352
00:22:06,743 --> 00:22:13,350
it is his 14th studio album released
on, on Tamla, the subsidiary of Motown.

353
00:22:13,717 --> 00:22:19,957
14 albums, 1976, 20 or so
years in the biz at this point.

354
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:23,890
this man has lived a whole ass Dewey Cox.

355
00:22:24,245 --> 00:22:32,345
Walk hard life by this point, there's
a grown up in DC with, to say he had a

356
00:22:32,345 --> 00:22:37,315
difficult relationship with his father
is a wild understatement, especially

357
00:22:37,315 --> 00:22:42,912
if you know how the Marvin Gaye story
ends, he's a central fixture in the

358
00:22:42,922 --> 00:22:50,160
Motown scene, the rise of Motown, which
would have been 10 nigh on 15 years.

359
00:22:50,525 --> 00:22:57,322
Past at this point, he had a duets era
with Tammy Terrell, who has died six

360
00:22:57,322 --> 00:23:00,522
years prior to this record coming out.

361
00:23:01,253 --> 00:23:05,383
he has a massive, massive hit in
heard it through the grapevine, a

362
00:23:05,383 --> 00:23:09,385
song he covered, and was played over
the opening credits of the big chill.

363
00:23:09,545 --> 00:23:15,835
So like central cultural figure, you could
stop 99 percent of artists careers there.

364
00:23:15,835 --> 00:23:16,685
And that's like.

365
00:23:17,052 --> 00:23:19,152
That's a full documentary, right?

366
00:23:19,175 --> 00:23:24,255
But then he makes a big political
statement in 71 with what's going on,

367
00:23:24,675 --> 00:23:28,215
which could have easily been the record
that we talked about to dip into Marvin

368
00:23:28,215 --> 00:23:34,025
Gaye and is as phenomenal an entry point
for an artist as humanly imaginable.

369
00:23:34,025 --> 00:23:37,125
And, on the short list of
like, if you bury a time

370
00:23:37,125 --> 00:23:38,905
capsule of 10 American records.

371
00:23:39,023 --> 00:23:41,573
probably one of them
alongside Kind of Blue.

372
00:23:41,653 --> 00:23:46,753
he did the Trouble Man soundtrack,
as Barry Gordy is trying to tow into

373
00:23:46,753 --> 00:23:51,403
Hollywood and be a big producer,
and the Trouble Man soundtrack is

374
00:23:51,580 --> 00:23:53,650
as soul music gets for my money.

375
00:23:53,681 --> 00:23:56,831
then he does, or Trouble Man
was after Let's Get It On, but

376
00:23:56,831 --> 00:23:58,431
he does Let's Get It On in 73.

377
00:23:58,798 --> 00:23:59,778
Crazy record.

378
00:23:59,798 --> 00:24:04,348
And so the what's going on, let's
get it on is like two massive,

379
00:24:04,348 --> 00:24:05,897
massive records back to back.

380
00:24:05,944 --> 00:24:08,684
And so all of that gives
you a long simmering stew

381
00:24:08,684 --> 00:24:11,454
of influences that leads to.

382
00:24:11,821 --> 00:24:14,941
Sounds and subject matter
that you get mashing together

383
00:24:14,941 --> 00:24:17,421
here into really like a blend.

384
00:24:17,481 --> 00:24:19,491
I think one of the first things
you'll notice when you put on the

385
00:24:19,491 --> 00:24:22,571
record is it doesn't feel like
it has a start and end point.

386
00:24:22,631 --> 00:24:27,418
It's almost kind of hard to know, where
you are in the suite and like you, you

387
00:24:27,418 --> 00:24:28,828
really need to think of it as a suite.

388
00:24:28,828 --> 00:24:33,775
It's 11 tracks, it's eight unique
pieces, but it's like, It's a little

389
00:24:33,775 --> 00:24:38,935
bit sleeps dope smokery because it's,
it fades in and out of parts and you

390
00:24:38,935 --> 00:24:43,715
get the, I want you motif two more times
instrumental in addition, you know, and

391
00:24:43,715 --> 00:24:45,845
you get after the dance instrumental
and then it's the closing track.

392
00:24:45,855 --> 00:24:49,822
It's like, it's a mess if you're
trying to focus and be like, it's this

393
00:24:49,822 --> 00:24:51,762
song and then this song, it is hard.

394
00:24:51,879 --> 00:24:53,089
so there's a lot going on there.

395
00:24:53,139 --> 00:24:56,861
You know, just think about also
in his, like extrapolate from his

396
00:24:56,861 --> 00:25:02,591
life, zoom out in 1964 alone, you
have MLK winning the Nobel prize.

397
00:25:02,958 --> 00:25:08,708
The Civil Rights Act, the murders
in Mississippi in the summer of 64

398
00:25:08,718 --> 00:25:12,838
that we talked about on the Sun House
episode, the Beatles doing Ed Sullivan

399
00:25:12,838 --> 00:25:17,548
and arriving in America, Beatlemania,
the Supremes start taking off LBJ

400
00:25:17,548 --> 00:25:19,518
bombing Vietnam and the Vietnam war.

401
00:25:20,058 --> 00:25:23,118
You have the rise of the Jackson
five and Michael Jackson,

402
00:25:23,168 --> 00:25:25,398
who was hugely influenced by.

403
00:25:25,578 --> 00:25:26,258
Marvin Gaye.

404
00:25:26,588 --> 00:25:29,858
You have the fall of Motown by
the time this record comes around.

405
00:25:30,008 --> 00:25:32,220
So like he's sort of
outrun that whole thing.

406
00:25:32,540 --> 00:25:39,311
You have Woodstock and then you have
Marvin took a significant amount of time

407
00:25:39,311 --> 00:25:43,801
off and like went totally recluse and
grew a beard and started hanging out with

408
00:25:43,801 --> 00:25:50,218
two all pro dudes from the Detroit Lions
and stopped smoking and partying and

409
00:25:50,228 --> 00:25:52,368
almost tried out for the Detroit Lions.

410
00:25:52,969 --> 00:25:55,539
so I just named at least a dozen
things and any one of those

411
00:25:55,539 --> 00:25:57,416
things is like, Oh my God, what?

412
00:25:57,976 --> 00:26:01,726
And they all happened in
10 or 15 years of his life.

413
00:26:02,246 --> 00:26:06,576
So it's it's astounding to me It's
a minor miracle thinking about the

414
00:26:06,586 --> 00:26:11,766
million butterfly effect things that
had to happen just for this one magical

415
00:26:11,766 --> 00:26:16,283
little document to exist And I think
the richness of feel that comes to the

416
00:26:16,283 --> 00:26:21,730
surface, because this album is like
pure 190 proof feel, doesn't happen

417
00:26:21,860 --> 00:26:24,010
without every single one of those things.

418
00:26:24,430 --> 00:26:27,340
And of course that makes me reflect
on my own life everything that

419
00:26:27,340 --> 00:26:30,010
happened is because of all the good
and bad stuff that happened before it.

420
00:26:30,377 --> 00:26:34,437
The difference between I Want You
and My Life is I Want You also

421
00:26:34,437 --> 00:26:37,077
wouldn't have happened, and this
is by Marvin's own admission,

422
00:26:37,107 --> 00:26:39,924
without a ton, a literal he doesn't.

423
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:43,249
He cannot calculate amount of cocaine.

424
00:26:43,616 --> 00:26:45,746
so that, that's all the
first factor, right?

425
00:26:45,766 --> 00:26:51,786
Is the, the millions of factors leading
up very, very deep in his career.

426
00:26:51,786 --> 00:26:54,476
Like he's a ostensibly an
old head by this point.

427
00:26:55,088 --> 00:26:56,688
but a, a huge cultural figure.

428
00:26:56,913 --> 00:27:01,243
The other thing is, I like, I can't help
but think of the Teddy Perkins, great

429
00:27:01,253 --> 00:27:05,953
things come from great pain, and you
can draw the line from Michael Jackson.

430
00:27:06,293 --> 00:27:12,150
Inspiring that episode right on back to
Marvin, there are some deep psychological

431
00:27:12,150 --> 00:27:17,054
tensions that he never managed to resolve
in his life, that I was really struck

432
00:27:17,734 --> 00:27:21,544
reading, uh, divided soul by David
Ritz and, you know, there's, there's

433
00:27:21,544 --> 00:27:25,279
some problems with that as a document
of his life as there always is with

434
00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:29,419
a biography, but, he had direct and
intimate access and there are a lot of

435
00:27:29,419 --> 00:27:31,059
direct quotes from Marvin in that book.

436
00:27:31,059 --> 00:27:33,689
So I, I think it's worth a read if
you want to dive deep after this.

437
00:27:33,689 --> 00:27:33,739
Yeah.

438
00:27:33,993 --> 00:27:37,139
I haven't read, um, but
it's Michael Eric Dyson.

439
00:27:37,149 --> 00:27:39,709
So I would sort of
recommend it on its face.

440
00:27:40,289 --> 00:27:44,065
A book called Mercy Me, art
loves and demons of Marvin Gaye.

441
00:27:44,432 --> 00:27:47,932
so like, I don't want us to play too
much into the tortured artist thing,

442
00:27:47,942 --> 00:27:53,282
but if there was an archetype of
it in the American popular cultural

443
00:27:53,462 --> 00:27:56,439
memory, Marvin was it to a T.

444
00:27:57,079 --> 00:27:59,389
And then Janice, the.

445
00:27:59,789 --> 00:28:07,567
Then mistress, eventually wife, later ex
wife, who this record was sort of pointed

446
00:28:07,567 --> 00:28:12,187
at also wrote a book many, many years
later called after the dance, which as you

447
00:28:12,187 --> 00:28:14,387
know, is one of the song titles on this.

448
00:28:14,397 --> 00:28:19,914
So like there's, TLDR, there's
like a, it doesn't seem like a lot

449
00:28:19,934 --> 00:28:21,394
when you're first listening to it.

450
00:28:21,984 --> 00:28:27,674
It's subtlety is very deceptive,
but there's like 16 tons of stuff.

451
00:28:28,251 --> 00:28:31,531
undergirding the sort of
effervescence of this record,

452
00:28:31,896 --> 00:28:34,526
Cliff: Yep, Janice Hunter, that
you mentioned there at the end,

453
00:28:34,526 --> 00:28:40,543
who wrote After the Dance she will
be a topic today because she was

454
00:28:40,553 --> 00:28:43,503
the topic very much of this album.

455
00:28:43,870 --> 00:28:46,736
But, point taken and agreed, right?

456
00:28:46,736 --> 00:28:52,292
We don't want to, we don't want to love
on the tortured artist idea too much,

457
00:28:52,682 --> 00:28:56,727
but It's also a good example of just what
we were talking about earlier, right?

458
00:28:57,217 --> 00:29:02,197
Uh, what we can do in this episode and
thinking about this album is instead of

459
00:29:02,387 --> 00:29:09,877
judging that concept of, does someone
who had a truly ruinous childhood do

460
00:29:09,877 --> 00:29:15,027
they, become good or bad depending
on what they do within their singular

461
00:29:15,027 --> 00:29:18,877
lifetime based on whether they're able
to overcome those struggles or not

462
00:29:18,877 --> 00:29:20,477
pass that pain on to other people.

463
00:29:21,187 --> 00:29:25,387
We can just go ahead and say
he, he did, he did hurt other

464
00:29:25,387 --> 00:29:27,390
people, throughout his life.

465
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,010
He also was hurt himself.

466
00:29:30,350 --> 00:29:33,350
That past that you talked
about is, is truly awful.

467
00:29:33,620 --> 00:29:35,920
And no one deserves what
he experienced either.

468
00:29:36,270 --> 00:29:40,490
So instead of us trying to encapsulate
whether that means that a thing or a

469
00:29:40,490 --> 00:29:46,770
person or art is good or bad in some
specific dichotomous way, instead

470
00:29:46,770 --> 00:29:48,480
we can just acknowledge all of that.

471
00:29:48,730 --> 00:29:52,130
And like you said, understand that all
of that went into this piece of art

472
00:29:52,670 --> 00:29:55,800
that now we can experience much later.

473
00:29:56,150 --> 00:30:01,610
It was a different purview, different
point of view but we can have an

474
00:30:01,630 --> 00:30:05,120
understanding of what went into
it, but we can look at it with the

475
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,690
eyes that we have today and still
pull something interesting out.

476
00:30:08,888 --> 00:30:14,720
and so to that end as well, at the time,
you mentioned all of the things that were

477
00:30:14,730 --> 00:30:20,012
kind of going on in the lead up to this
record, that's not only a lot, but also

478
00:30:20,012 --> 00:30:24,812
focusing in on just kind of like the time
right before this record began to exist as

479
00:30:24,822 --> 00:30:26,892
this record that belongs to Marvin Gaye.

480
00:30:27,562 --> 00:30:28,522
This itself.

481
00:30:29,237 --> 00:30:35,921
I want you has basically a long past
of having existed in various forms

482
00:30:36,481 --> 00:30:42,361
and got the existence of some of these
songs are in fact what got Marvin Gaye

483
00:30:42,381 --> 00:30:46,311
interested in creating another record
after let's get it on to begin with.

484
00:30:46,431 --> 00:30:47,941
Kyle: which he was notorious.

485
00:30:47,981 --> 00:30:50,381
It was notoriously hard
to get him to do that.

486
00:30:50,481 --> 00:30:54,561
And Barry Gordy struggled
to like innovate new ways to

487
00:30:54,561 --> 00:30:56,251
trick him back into the studio.

488
00:30:56,618 --> 00:30:57,048
Cliff: right.

489
00:30:57,398 --> 00:31:00,688
And there's, there's so much to cover
as well that we won't have time to talk

490
00:31:00,698 --> 00:31:03,628
about today that sort of illuminates.

491
00:31:04,043 --> 00:31:07,503
What that must have felt like at
the time, because there's, there are

492
00:31:07,503 --> 00:31:12,750
plenty of stories about sort of his
relationship to Motown especially

493
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,330
the, you know, if you've kind of

494
00:31:14,465 --> 00:31:15,495
Kyle: was personal

495
00:31:15,862 --> 00:31:19,842
Cliff: yeah, and if you've studied or
learned about Motown very much at all,

496
00:31:20,012 --> 00:31:22,612
like one thing you'll start to walk
away with eventually is they were.

497
00:31:23,007 --> 00:31:31,137
Perfectionists as a label and as such
often applied a high level of scrutiny

498
00:31:31,177 --> 00:31:35,197
to the type of subject matter, music
quality, anything that would come

499
00:31:35,197 --> 00:31:37,017
out of what Motown was producing

500
00:31:37,067 --> 00:31:38,997
Kyle: that they had a charm school.

501
00:31:39,037 --> 00:31:41,797
Like, I think that always puts
it into perspective for me.

502
00:31:41,797 --> 00:31:44,627
They like sent their artist to
finishing school, essentially.

503
00:31:45,187 --> 00:31:45,527
Cliff: Yep.

504
00:31:46,237 --> 00:31:52,394
And so prior to this point,
Marvin Gaye and Motown, we'll just

505
00:31:52,394 --> 00:31:55,474
refer to the entity of Motown,
right, kind of in one thing, but

506
00:31:55,864 --> 00:32:01,291
there had already been a relationship
there where not only had there been

507
00:32:01,291 --> 00:32:07,613
some relationship artistic tension with
wanting Marvin to do certain things that

508
00:32:07,613 --> 00:32:12,123
aligned with what Motown was putting
out prior to his own records, but then

509
00:32:12,133 --> 00:32:17,123
also remember that, what's going on
was effectively a thing that Marvin

510
00:32:17,123 --> 00:32:20,573
Gaye won against Motown, so to speak.

511
00:32:20,733 --> 00:32:22,798
Like, yes, they all put
it out together, but, Yes.

512
00:32:22,798 --> 00:32:24,528
In retrospect, everyone is really happy.

513
00:32:24,528 --> 00:32:28,058
That record exists more or less,
but that doesn't mean like we talk

514
00:32:28,068 --> 00:32:30,588
about with a ton of records, it
doesn't mean it was easy to convince

515
00:32:30,588 --> 00:32:32,008
anybody to put it out at the time.

516
00:32:32,548 --> 00:32:34,158
So there was already like a lot of

517
00:32:34,168 --> 00:32:34,748
dense

518
00:32:34,888 --> 00:32:38,038
Kyle: nobody was psyched about
the iPhone until it was the

519
00:32:38,038 --> 00:32:38,938
biggest thing in the world.

520
00:32:39,228 --> 00:32:40,348
Cliff: Yeah, exactly.

521
00:32:40,438 --> 00:32:43,068
Kyle: then everybody's like, wow,
what a great idea we all had.

522
00:32:43,468 --> 00:32:43,728
Cliff: Yeah.

523
00:32:43,928 --> 00:32:49,488
How obvious I could have thought to just
have a phone that was only a screen, bro.

524
00:32:49,928 --> 00:32:51,628
Of course I could have
thought of that myself.

525
00:32:51,995 --> 00:32:56,755
all those things were true and were
leading up into this moment before I

526
00:32:56,755 --> 00:33:01,595
Want You existed, where Marvin was on
a quote unquote religious sabbatical,

527
00:33:01,922 --> 00:33:07,902
and, his, Place in life at this time is
not one where I think we should take any

528
00:33:07,902 --> 00:33:12,682
specific phrasing He said at any point
as direct gospel of what he actually

529
00:33:12,692 --> 00:33:18,291
thought there is plenty of Trauma and
drug use and all sorts of things here

530
00:33:18,531 --> 00:33:22,151
so that we you know Have a harder time
understanding exactly what was happening

531
00:33:22,151 --> 00:33:26,481
then But, uh, what we hear from others
is that he had basically sworn off

532
00:33:26,481 --> 00:33:28,111
ever doing a commercial record again.

533
00:33:28,851 --> 00:33:35,921
and what changed his mind was Barry
Gordy, actually, who was co writing

534
00:33:35,921 --> 00:33:37,631
some hits with, like, Michael Jackson.

535
00:33:37,961 --> 00:33:40,711
And he was Diana Ross's brother.

536
00:33:41,011 --> 00:33:44,831
There's the story of Marvin Gaye
involves a lot of people related

537
00:33:44,831 --> 00:33:46,601
to people in Motown Records.

538
00:33:47,071 --> 00:33:47,931
And so this was

539
00:33:48,086 --> 00:33:51,886
Kyle: Also important to note, and, you
know, I'm sorry to everyone that I should

540
00:33:51,886 --> 00:33:57,168
know this, and I don't know the exact
contours, but, Diana Ross, at least

541
00:33:57,168 --> 00:34:03,645
a muse to Barry Gordy, perhaps a love
interest, but Diana Ross very much like

542
00:34:03,645 --> 00:34:08,141
the center of Barry Gordy's universe,
just professionally and as a human being.

543
00:34:08,436 --> 00:34:13,793
Cliff: Yeah, so there was this song,
I Want You, that already existed.

544
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,231
I think this is a cool way to talk about
this record and contextualize it, right?

545
00:34:18,261 --> 00:34:22,448
It's, very few records have the
total linear, we started from

546
00:34:22,448 --> 00:34:25,938
nothing, we wrote everything together
only as this group of artists,

547
00:34:26,218 --> 00:34:29,443
and then, You know, perfected
and recorded it exactly as is.

548
00:34:29,633 --> 00:34:30,713
It's rarely like that.

549
00:34:30,733 --> 00:34:34,483
And I think folks know that, but
especially around this time and with

550
00:34:34,483 --> 00:34:39,263
records like this, it's cool to understand
that this was more of a collection of

551
00:34:39,293 --> 00:34:42,603
things that Marvin Gaye put himself into.

552
00:34:43,003 --> 00:34:46,073
That might be too apt a description
based on the subject matter.

553
00:34:46,333 --> 00:34:49,323
So let me say instead, this
is something that Marvin

554
00:34:49,423 --> 00:34:50,623
Kyle: Made his own.

555
00:34:50,990 --> 00:34:51,870
Cliff: There you go.

556
00:34:52,050 --> 00:34:52,660
Thank you.

557
00:34:53,027 --> 00:34:59,294
and so I want you already existed as
a demo and got Marvin really excited.

558
00:34:59,574 --> 00:35:01,714
I fell in love with the song alone.

559
00:35:02,324 --> 00:35:04,634
And then it turned out that.

560
00:35:05,001 --> 00:35:10,061
As Marvin learned more about what could
be done and started hearing more about

561
00:35:10,161 --> 00:35:14,521
other people's music that had been
written or other people he was inspired

562
00:35:14,521 --> 00:35:20,071
by, he started to get an idea for a
total record that he could put together

563
00:35:20,311 --> 00:35:22,491
and eventually got pretty excited about.

564
00:35:22,851 --> 00:35:23,171
Um,

565
00:35:23,286 --> 00:35:28,416
Kyle: I liked the anecdote where they
were working on, I think on I want

566
00:35:28,426 --> 00:35:32,046
you, but the very first demo and then.

567
00:35:32,596 --> 00:35:37,006
Leon Ware, who we'll, we'll talk about
played some other stuff, like including

568
00:35:37,006 --> 00:35:40,836
some duets he'd been working on for Minnie
Ripperton was playing some of his own

569
00:35:40,836 --> 00:35:42,976
stuff through the wall at the studio.

570
00:35:43,376 --> 00:35:46,006
And Marvin came in and
was like, I love all this.

571
00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:47,056
I want all of it.

572
00:35:47,456 --> 00:35:49,766
If you give it to me, like
I'll do the whole album.

573
00:35:50,487 --> 00:35:54,859
and this, this was like way before the
era of the You know, future and Metro

574
00:35:54,869 --> 00:35:59,996
Boomin, where it's like the music and
the voice sort of massive super group

575
00:36:00,226 --> 00:36:03,456
that, but you can see like some sort of
nascent strains of where that kind of

576
00:36:03,456 --> 00:36:08,796
thing would, would come to be, but it was
like, not the mode of the time at all.

577
00:36:09,346 --> 00:36:14,466
Uh, very unusual for like sort of a super
producer, writer, single person and a

578
00:36:14,466 --> 00:36:20,694
super performer, musician, single person
to, to join forces and, You know, with

579
00:36:20,694 --> 00:36:22,414
your powers combined, dot, dot, dot.

580
00:36:22,744 --> 00:36:23,154
Cliff: yeah.

581
00:36:23,275 --> 00:36:30,205
And Leon Ware is a critical part of
not only understanding what's going

582
00:36:30,205 --> 00:36:36,060
on on this record, But also in kind of
understanding more about what this record

583
00:36:36,150 --> 00:36:42,410
did afterwards and especially in the,
in the very short time frame after that

584
00:36:42,740 --> 00:36:48,100
because Leon Ware also put out a record
called Musical Massage, uh, I believe

585
00:36:48,110 --> 00:36:56,055
not long after this, and because of its
association with the I want you and Marvin

586
00:36:56,055 --> 00:36:57,865
Gaye in general and all this, right?

587
00:36:58,175 --> 00:37:03,245
It sort of led to a swelling of
appreciation for that type of music,

588
00:37:03,475 --> 00:37:06,735
which was still highly sensual, right?

589
00:37:06,785 --> 00:37:10,195
Led to genres like quiet storm.

590
00:37:10,565 --> 00:37:15,315
Uh, like I feel like referring to any
of this stuff as R and B is pretty.

591
00:37:15,335 --> 00:37:17,825
Uh, it, it, it,

592
00:37:18,555 --> 00:37:22,645
yeah, it doesn't I, I understand why
we start there and it's important.

593
00:37:22,675 --> 00:37:24,725
This influenced R& B for sure,

594
00:37:25,015 --> 00:37:25,425
but it's, uh,

595
00:37:25,630 --> 00:37:30,197
Kyle: It's really more of a, like, you,
you can't convey it in audio, like,

596
00:37:30,207 --> 00:37:31,777
only with us looking at each other.

597
00:37:32,157 --> 00:37:34,405
It's someone where you, make
eye contact and you're like,

598
00:37:34,525 --> 00:37:36,255
you know, you know what it is.

599
00:37:36,622 --> 00:37:37,452
You, you know.

600
00:37:37,819 --> 00:37:42,610
Like I do every time, I go to talk about
voodoo, ever since we did that episode.

601
00:37:42,977 --> 00:37:44,357
Well, what's going on?

602
00:37:44,357 --> 00:37:45,567
Why do you like that record so much?

603
00:37:45,934 --> 00:37:46,494
You know, bro.

604
00:37:46,861 --> 00:37:51,751
Cliff: Yep, in fact, we can just,
we'll shortcut to a moment I'm

605
00:37:51,751 --> 00:37:52,971
sure we'll mention later on.

606
00:37:53,191 --> 00:37:59,176
But basically if Voodoo, if D'Angelo
makes your body react in any way,

607
00:37:59,296 --> 00:38:02,473
when you were listening to that
record, make sure you listen to this

608
00:38:02,473 --> 00:38:07,763
one, there, there is a spiritual
succession and relationship here that.

609
00:38:08,180 --> 00:38:11,310
It's speaking of reductive, it'd be
pretty reductive to just say like

610
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,760
this created Neo Soul down the road.

611
00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:18,780
That's definitely not the case, but this
it's hard to make a case that Voodoo would

612
00:38:18,780 --> 00:38:24,750
have existed in its current form had this
record not existed beforehand in its form.

613
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,680
Kyle: One of the things that stuck with
me the most about Voodoo when we were

614
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:35,357
getting to know it is you know, the
method wasn't like yes, we have all these

615
00:38:35,357 --> 00:38:37,467
influences let's just go write songs.

616
00:38:37,877 --> 00:38:40,594
They Quite literally
conjured their way to it.

617
00:38:40,604 --> 00:38:45,424
They would just play jam and jam
and jam and, and, you know, woodshop

618
00:38:45,474 --> 00:38:49,124
these songs by Prince and Sly and
all these people that they really

619
00:38:49,124 --> 00:38:54,281
liked, until it turned into jams and
started mutating and became the songs.

620
00:38:54,681 --> 00:38:59,614
And it, you know, it just came up
out of the smoke and there's a, even

621
00:38:59,614 --> 00:39:01,944
though Leon brought these songs.

622
00:39:02,679 --> 00:39:05,529
Mostly pretty fully formed to Marvin.

623
00:39:06,019 --> 00:39:09,579
Leon himself said, you know, the,
the songs weren't the songs until

624
00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:11,559
Marvin put his magic on them.

625
00:39:11,919 --> 00:39:18,009
So there's a similar element of like
organic conjuring, bringing it to a third

626
00:39:18,039 --> 00:39:23,519
place, a new level that it, it wouldn't
have reached before, like a cool alchemy.

627
00:39:23,886 --> 00:39:28,653
That was just sort of like going, going
unconscious, getting into flow state,

628
00:39:29,083 --> 00:39:32,673
and just go in and go in and go in and
what you have is, is a beautiful piece

629
00:39:32,673 --> 00:39:36,633
without beginning or end that you can,
you can live in for a really, really

630
00:39:36,633 --> 00:39:38,013
long time without getting tired of it.

631
00:39:38,380 --> 00:39:42,690
Cliff: A quick note on that, maybe
before we go into some ways to listen

632
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,383
and experience this record, especially
on your first time through, what

633
00:39:46,383 --> 00:39:51,633
you just brought up is a key thing
about this record to sort of see

634
00:39:51,673 --> 00:39:54,043
and understand it in its context.

635
00:39:54,549 --> 00:39:56,949
yes, it was primarily.

636
00:39:57,394 --> 00:40:03,637
Songs already written in one form or
another, but everyone who has spoken

637
00:40:03,637 --> 00:40:06,977
about this record, either at the time
or in the time since, who was involved

638
00:40:06,977 --> 00:40:11,667
in it, whether it was the people who
literally wrote those songs or lyrics or

639
00:40:11,667 --> 00:40:15,937
not, there's a number of anecdotes, but
at the end of the day, what everyone had

640
00:40:15,937 --> 00:40:21,884
to say in, in very close relationship
was, um, was, was It wasn't really

641
00:40:21,944 --> 00:40:27,404
anything until Marvin did what he
did to it, and then it was fully his.

642
00:40:28,027 --> 00:40:32,194
this whole body of work really
came alive when he took it on.

643
00:40:32,575 --> 00:40:36,585
I might overuse the word fascinating,
but it's really fascinating here

644
00:40:36,595 --> 00:40:40,535
from an intellectual perspective, I
think, on this record to think about

645
00:40:40,603 --> 00:40:43,513
how someone could perceive the work.

646
00:40:43,908 --> 00:40:50,535
Of someone else and so quickly apply it
to a very emotional and sort of like hot

647
00:40:50,585 --> 00:40:56,092
in the moment experience that someone
was having because in this sense,  we

648
00:40:56,092 --> 00:41:00,942
don't have to go too far into the
tabloid direction of this stuff to just

649
00:41:00,952 --> 00:41:03,482
give the quick context of it, right?

650
00:41:03,522 --> 00:41:07,402
Like, I want you is a work of.

651
00:41:07,769 --> 00:41:15,299
Erotic tribute, okay, to a very specific
woman Janice Hunter, who he would shortly

652
00:41:15,299 --> 00:41:19,949
marry afterwards, but we can quickly give
a tour of what was actually happening

653
00:41:19,969 --> 00:41:22,139
at this time, because that's true.

654
00:41:22,439 --> 00:41:26,309
He was very much in love with
Janice Hunter, who, we should

655
00:41:26,319 --> 00:41:31,226
be clear, was significantly
younger than him although, uh, is

656
00:41:31,226 --> 00:41:31,526
bet

657
00:41:31,866 --> 00:41:32,606
Kyle: 17?

658
00:41:32,836 --> 00:41:35,583
Cliff: So This is the hair I'm
going to split really quick.

659
00:41:35,833 --> 00:41:39,253
As far as I know, yes,
they met when she was 17.

660
00:41:39,543 --> 00:41:46,197
What I didn't find was any hint that
there was concerning documented behavior

661
00:41:46,197 --> 00:41:49,147
prior to the age of consent from adults.

662
00:41:49,737 --> 00:41:55,127
I try real hard to just like, if we have
Consenting adults in a situation, and I

663
00:41:55,127 --> 00:41:56,817
don't have any further insight into it.

664
00:41:57,137 --> 00:42:00,867
I'm just gonna kinda say, that's a
little interesting and leave it there.

665
00:42:01,057 --> 00:42:03,977
Kyle: I will take the first train
to back in my business ville.

666
00:42:04,344 --> 00:42:08,234
Cliff: But, part of the reason why
that matters at all because, you

667
00:42:08,234 --> 00:42:12,524
know, when Leonardo DiCaprio does it,
it's gross, and that is also valid.

668
00:42:12,884 --> 00:42:17,044
What's really fascinating was, his
prior relationship, so to speak,

669
00:42:17,044 --> 00:42:19,294
Marvin Gaye's, that he was not

670
00:42:19,294 --> 00:42:20,644
yet done with at this

671
00:42:20,694 --> 00:42:21,004
Kyle: prayer.

672
00:42:21,004 --> 00:42:21,374
Yeah, yeah.

673
00:42:21,741 --> 00:42:25,341
Cliff: The, the person he was in a
relationship with then, whose divorce

674
00:42:25,341 --> 00:42:32,131
he had not finalized, was 17 years his
senior, So he was never in a very age

675
00:42:32,191 --> 00:42:35,451
equal relationship across these two.

676
00:42:35,901 --> 00:42:43,479
Um, and so we, yeah, so we can kind of
hold that up, uh, without, Unnecessary

677
00:42:43,479 --> 00:42:48,121
judgment towards what may be, appropriate
or inappropriate between consenting

678
00:42:48,121 --> 00:42:52,771
adults but what we can say and what
is important to see here is like, this

679
00:42:52,771 --> 00:42:57,041
was, he was passionate about someone
he cared about who he had a very

680
00:42:57,041 --> 00:43:01,754
passionate relationship with afterwards,
their love was important to him.

681
00:43:01,764 --> 00:43:04,974
He's growing, and these
songs are about her.

682
00:43:05,044 --> 00:43:08,664
They're to her, they're about
her, uh, and he feels really

683
00:43:08,664 --> 00:43:11,331
comfortable expressing, well, a lot,

684
00:43:11,891 --> 00:43:12,481
uh,

685
00:43:12,601 --> 00:43:13,801
Kyle: I just say though

686
00:43:13,891 --> 00:43:14,101
Cliff: know.

687
00:43:14,468 --> 00:43:20,975
Kyle: the record was put out by
the brother of the first wife

688
00:43:21,425 --> 00:43:21,775
Cliff: Mm hmm.

689
00:43:21,865 --> 00:43:27,542
Kyle: and I just can't I
can't imagine the dynamic.

690
00:43:28,077 --> 00:43:34,414
of singing and presenting these songs
and my excitement about them to, still

691
00:43:34,424 --> 00:43:41,134
legally, my brother in law and my boss
and check signer just that's complicated.

692
00:43:41,434 --> 00:43:44,701
That's, that's complicated.

693
00:43:45,086 --> 00:43:46,256
Cliff: Too rich for my blood.

694
00:43:46,341 --> 00:43:52,108
Kyle: And that's, I remember there's a
long form interview with Donald Glover

695
00:43:52,108 --> 00:43:58,068
when Atlanta first came out where they
showed them the first season and they

696
00:43:58,068 --> 00:44:02,968
were like, what's up with urn and van?

697
00:44:03,335 --> 00:44:05,095
Are they, when are they
going to get married?

698
00:44:05,145 --> 00:44:06,405
When in the arc is that?

699
00:44:06,945 --> 00:44:09,645
And he was like, no, no, no.

700
00:44:09,645 --> 00:44:14,615
Like culturally that it's just like your
aunt has a friend that comes around.

701
00:44:14,685 --> 00:44:15,861
and he's like, I'm gonna be
in trouble every once in a

702
00:44:15,861 --> 00:44:16,895
while, but he's not your uncle.

703
00:44:16,945 --> 00:44:20,025
But like, yeah, and it's just like,
you're just not worried about it.

704
00:44:20,545 --> 00:44:23,622
And the people, the well
meaning executives of FX

705
00:44:23,622 --> 00:44:24,882
really, what, what do you mean?

706
00:44:25,249 --> 00:44:27,476
What, I don't, I don't understand.

707
00:44:28,026 --> 00:44:31,426
You know, to your earlier point
in the non judgment thing, it's

708
00:44:31,426 --> 00:44:33,873
just like, there's so much.

709
00:44:34,513 --> 00:44:41,083
To unpack around like norms and just
like he was a complicated dude and um

710
00:44:41,503 --> 00:44:44,853
none of the setup of this is the life
that I would have personally chosen

711
00:44:44,863 --> 00:44:51,551
or gotten any enjoyment out of but It
was his deal for better and for worse

712
00:44:51,771 --> 00:44:54,611
simultaneously and it gave us this thing

713
00:44:54,978 --> 00:44:55,228
Cliff: Yep.

714
00:44:55,883 --> 00:44:58,533
Kyle: This undeniable, this
completely undeniable thing

715
00:44:59,208 --> 00:44:59,488
Cliff: Yep.

716
00:45:00,198 --> 00:45:04,738
And if the salacious details
titillate you, there's a whole ass

717
00:45:04,748 --> 00:45:06,888
book for you to go read, so go do it.

718
00:45:06,953 --> 00:45:12,723
Kyle: There are like one by her and
then large chunks of other ones,

719
00:45:13,328 --> 00:45:13,578
Cliff: Yeah.

720
00:45:13,831 --> 00:45:14,261
So.

721
00:45:14,396 --> 00:45:15,686
Kyle: but definitely not the focal point.

722
00:45:15,686 --> 00:45:23,096
So just like a, huh, you know, like
absorb that in, into your pores and

723
00:45:23,216 --> 00:45:26,846
don't ever think or talk about it again,
just bury it, bury it way down deep.

724
00:45:27,391 --> 00:45:28,411
Cliff: Yeah, exactly.

725
00:45:28,691 --> 00:45:28,921
Yeah.

726
00:45:28,921 --> 00:45:34,951
And that's, that is part of, I think,
what we have practiced ourselves.

727
00:45:35,011 --> 00:45:35,771
And.

728
00:45:35,771 --> 00:45:35,996
Yeah.

729
00:45:36,296 --> 00:45:40,596
Can help other people think through
yeah, sometimes like all right.

730
00:45:40,986 --> 00:45:44,646
I don't listen to Chris Brown
fuck that guy Okay, straight up

731
00:45:44,956 --> 00:45:46,536
period end of sentence.

732
00:45:46,986 --> 00:45:47,406
Okay.

733
00:45:47,451 --> 00:45:51,201
Kyle: I'm gonna send this clip to all
of my friends who I love and respect,

734
00:45:51,201 --> 00:45:54,291
who still inexplicably enjoy his music.

735
00:45:54,291 --> 00:45:56,141
Just

736
00:45:56,606 --> 00:45:59,476
Cliff: that's not a hard choice for me
But that's the one that I want to make

737
00:45:59,706 --> 00:46:03,456
and if somebody else Wants to reconcile
the fact that they really like a Chris

738
00:46:03,466 --> 00:46:07,875
Brown tune with the fact that Chris
Brown is this person Okay, if that's

739
00:46:07,875 --> 00:46:08,995
what you want to do, that's fine.

740
00:46:09,025 --> 00:46:14,080
We can both Come to things non
judgmentally and approach them

741
00:46:14,430 --> 00:46:15,760
and get things back out of them.

742
00:46:16,220 --> 00:46:18,750
And so as best we can here's like,

743
00:46:19,130 --> 00:46:22,440
Kyle: can't listen to Gary Glitter
anymore, but sometimes at sporting

744
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,270
events I do miss the Hey song.

745
00:46:24,637 --> 00:46:25,007
Yeah.

746
00:46:25,587 --> 00:46:28,487
Cliff: so like a lot of things We
just like we wanted to pick this

747
00:46:28,487 --> 00:46:31,527
little bit up because it's really
important for understanding what

748
00:46:31,527 --> 00:46:35,117
this record is about It's not just
like a generically sexy record.

749
00:46:35,557 --> 00:46:36,337
It's not just

750
00:46:36,647 --> 00:46:38,277
Kyle: It's very specifically

751
00:46:38,517 --> 00:46:42,017
Cliff: It is it is horny in a
very particular direction like

752
00:46:42,337 --> 00:46:42,867
and they were

753
00:46:43,107 --> 00:46:46,357
Kyle: you talk about artistic
intent, that was the artistic intent.

754
00:46:46,667 --> 00:46:47,147
Cliff: Yup.

755
00:46:47,639 --> 00:46:50,159
There are lyrics in here
like, I wanna give you head.

756
00:46:50,299 --> 00:46:52,029
It's not confusing, okay?

757
00:46:52,059 --> 00:46:53,814
Like, we W W

758
00:46:53,839 --> 00:46:57,129
Kyle: Cliff, do you want to tell them
what image you have selected to be

759
00:46:57,139 --> 00:46:58,949
at the top of the episode outline?

760
00:46:59,278 --> 00:47:07,596
Cliff: W W W W We had a big sign
on the mixing board in the studio.

761
00:47:07,666 --> 00:47:09,096
It was kind of subliminal.

762
00:47:09,266 --> 00:47:12,096
It said, in all capital letters, HEAD.

763
00:47:12,463 --> 00:47:14,223
We were in the studio messing around

764
00:47:14,303 --> 00:47:16,893
Kyle: that's 72 point ass punt.

765
00:47:17,263 --> 00:47:17,673
Cliff: right?

766
00:47:17,773 --> 00:47:19,513
Right in front of his face.

767
00:47:20,073 --> 00:47:25,813
So like, there was a re Like, playful
is probably an overly simplified way of

768
00:47:25,813 --> 00:47:30,256
thinking about it, but there was like
a real, like, playful, improvisational

769
00:47:30,266 --> 00:47:33,206
vibe to, basically, How do you want

770
00:47:33,266 --> 00:47:34,756
Kyle: Comfortable, vulnerable.

771
00:47:35,356 --> 00:47:35,756
Yeah.

772
00:47:35,756 --> 00:47:42,016
just like, self actualized in the joy
of connecting to a person in this way.

773
00:47:42,383 --> 00:47:42,743
Cliff: Yeah.

774
00:47:43,110 --> 00:47:44,710
So, that's why

775
00:47:45,077 --> 00:47:49,497
Kyle: that long interview with Leon Ware
The Jason King, who's now the Dean of the

776
00:47:49,497 --> 00:47:52,747
Music School at USC, did a great writer.

777
00:47:53,117 --> 00:47:58,837
Leon Ware was like we are two
guys that wanted to make a record

778
00:47:59,037 --> 00:48:01,904
that, like, Your kids wouldn't
be embarrassed that you made.

779
00:48:01,964 --> 00:48:04,194
It was natural, not nasty.

780
00:48:04,264 --> 00:48:07,024
You know, like, it's just
a fact of life type stuff.

781
00:48:07,094 --> 00:48:09,724
Thing to be enjoyed and appreciated.

782
00:48:10,084 --> 00:48:10,474
Cliff: yeah.

783
00:48:10,614 --> 00:48:15,564
Leon Ware clearly feels to this day,
whether other people feel the same way

784
00:48:15,584 --> 00:48:20,124
about what he did or not, that yeah,
like what he made was like, pure,

785
00:48:20,154 --> 00:48:23,464
he'd be like, he literally, like you
said, I talked about being able to

786
00:48:23,464 --> 00:48:27,364
show it to kids, like his kids, uh,

787
00:48:27,854 --> 00:48:28,184
like,

788
00:48:28,414 --> 00:48:32,244
Kyle: he say something like, um,
people tell me all the time how many

789
00:48:32,244 --> 00:48:33,884
babies have been made to this record?

790
00:48:33,884 --> 00:48:38,021
And that's like the metric of success
of this thing for me, which is awesome.

791
00:48:38,388 --> 00:48:43,933
Cliff: so that's one way to look at some
of the context that makes, This record

792
00:48:43,963 --> 00:48:49,663
especially interesting and helpful
to digest outside of just, you know,

793
00:48:49,663 --> 00:48:53,273
subjectively taking in the music itself
without knowing anything else about it.

794
00:48:53,703 --> 00:48:57,893
Um, so like with many records, including
all the ones we talk about in this

795
00:48:57,903 --> 00:49:02,253
podcast there's always something to be
added by kind of understanding as much

796
00:49:02,253 --> 00:49:06,693
as you can about what was happening,
uh, and what went into what got created.

797
00:49:07,328 --> 00:49:07,548
Kyle: Yeah.

798
00:49:07,548 --> 00:49:12,658
I think our goal is let context
add value, not subject the second

799
00:49:12,658 --> 00:49:14,258
it starts to subtract value.

800
00:49:14,625 --> 00:49:17,855
And the thing is still worth listening
to, like bail out of the context

801
00:49:17,855 --> 00:49:20,585
stuff and just strictly vibes.

802
00:49:21,090 --> 00:49:21,430
Cliff: Yep.

803
00:49:21,470 --> 00:49:24,410
If it starts to feel like trivia,
walk out of the wing spot.

804
00:49:24,777 --> 00:49:26,537
Kyle: Get it to go, get
it to go play though.

805
00:49:26,712 --> 00:49:27,572
Cliff: Oh, yeah.

806
00:49:28,182 --> 00:49:33,382
So one of the, one of the ways that
we've talked now about then doing this

807
00:49:33,382 --> 00:49:38,272
idea of kind of historical context
and artist intent and impact is we've

808
00:49:38,272 --> 00:49:45,242
pulled out some specific exercises
that we can talk through and recommend

809
00:49:45,402 --> 00:49:48,637
for you to listen to this album Under.

810
00:49:49,097 --> 00:49:52,607
So basically some new ways that
you can approach the music.

811
00:49:53,347 --> 00:49:56,887
I mean, naturally, however, however it
is you wanna listen to music is fine.

812
00:49:56,887 --> 00:49:58,657
100% fantastic

813
00:49:58,797 --> 00:50:01,607
Kyle: know how to do that
for you better than anyone.

814
00:50:01,817 --> 00:50:02,417
Cliff: That's right.

815
00:50:02,877 --> 00:50:06,837
But when you are looking for more or
trying to get something different out

816
00:50:06,837 --> 00:50:11,487
of it, we've found some particular kind
of prompts that help us do exactly that.

817
00:50:11,787 --> 00:50:15,597
So one of the main ones that we've
done here, especially for this first

818
00:50:15,597 --> 00:50:19,558
section, thinking about As much as we
can objective context of the record.

819
00:50:20,128 --> 00:50:26,288
Well, we've talked about writing down,
how do we take it in fresh, but tune

820
00:50:26,298 --> 00:50:28,898
in for key moments on the record.

821
00:50:29,338 --> 00:50:32,948
So what we mean here is like, when
you're listening to an album for the

822
00:50:32,948 --> 00:50:36,848
first time, especially one that's,
you know, is complex or important

823
00:50:37,398 --> 00:50:38,838
if you're thinking a lot about it.

824
00:50:39,378 --> 00:50:41,678
You're sort of filled
with a lot of information.

825
00:50:41,688 --> 00:50:44,258
You're trying to process
that record sort of by force.

826
00:50:44,618 --> 00:50:47,508
There are things that you feel like
you need to be able to understand.

827
00:50:48,048 --> 00:50:48,348
So.

828
00:50:48,793 --> 00:50:52,073
Instead, what we would encourage
you to do, uh, is try to take it in

829
00:50:52,073 --> 00:50:57,973
fresh, but be able to tune into things
that surprise you and sort of allow

830
00:50:57,973 --> 00:50:59,403
yourself to write those things down.

831
00:50:59,723 --> 00:51:03,583
Sort of similar to meditation
in the sense of when a thought

832
00:51:03,593 --> 00:51:05,530
arises, well, there's a thought.

833
00:51:05,835 --> 00:51:06,545
And then let it go.

834
00:51:07,195 --> 00:51:11,185
Sort of in that same sense, we
went through and said, okay, what

835
00:51:11,185 --> 00:51:15,055
sort of surprised you on your
first listens to this record?

836
00:51:15,055 --> 00:51:16,045
What sort of stood out?

837
00:51:16,205 --> 00:51:19,895
What notes did you take afterwards
when you were trying to remember

838
00:51:20,225 --> 00:51:23,935
uh, what, what caught your ear when
you were going through it first?

839
00:51:24,435 --> 00:51:30,295
So for me one of the main things that
stuck out that I thought was funny,

840
00:51:30,662 --> 00:51:35,752
the very first 30 seconds of the
record reminds me that the foundations

841
00:51:35,762 --> 00:51:42,831
of some of my,  musical connections
and webs, uh, many of those webs are.

842
00:51:43,286 --> 00:51:48,373
For better or worse centered around
the Mars Volta, because the very first

843
00:51:48,383 --> 00:51:54,483
30 seconds of this record reminds me
of the way that, especially on Francis

844
00:51:54,493 --> 00:51:59,240
the Mute but on several other records,
I mean, they have real long songs and

845
00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:04,650
very episodic type of music, but they
will do kind of like these interlude

846
00:52:04,770 --> 00:52:10,992
y things in between them, and they are
Extremely related vibe wise to what is

847
00:52:10,992 --> 00:52:18,002
going on on this record the percussion
The way that the guitar is played Uh, and

848
00:52:18,002 --> 00:52:23,142
then all of that just reminded me once
again, which usually happens Hey, buddy,

849
00:52:23,812 --> 00:52:25,262
you're just looking for eddie hazel.

850
00:52:25,652 --> 00:52:27,352
Hey that line you're tracing.

851
00:52:27,362 --> 00:52:29,852
That's just a line back to eddie hazel

852
00:52:30,332 --> 00:52:30,942
Kyle: And Jimmy.

853
00:52:31,056 --> 00:52:31,976
Cliff: yeah for sure

854
00:52:32,496 --> 00:52:32,896
Uh,

855
00:52:33,001 --> 00:52:33,311
Kyle: Eddie.

856
00:52:33,401 --> 00:52:33,691
Yeah.

857
00:52:33,836 --> 00:52:38,366
Cliff: but those really stuck out to
me specifically because of the kind of

858
00:52:38,721 --> 00:52:41,861
Cadence and organization of the record
like you pointed out the way that

859
00:52:41,861 --> 00:52:45,661
they've got these They've got sections
in the record and then sort of like

860
00:52:45,681 --> 00:52:51,568
intro jams into them And it just feels
like you're moving through chapters and

861
00:52:51,578 --> 00:53:00,470
all the kind of mood music in between
the chapters is so funk disco Samba,

862
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,290
everything sort of all around that vibe.

863
00:53:03,500 --> 00:53:08,290
I could just as easily imagine,
a seventies Santana and band

864
00:53:08,570 --> 00:53:11,780
filling in, in between the
songs before they pick back up.

865
00:53:11,875 --> 00:53:12,345
Kyle: Totally.

866
00:53:12,695 --> 00:53:14,465
I'm never in a million years.

867
00:53:15,125 --> 00:53:16,815
I've been listening to
this record a long time.

868
00:53:17,415 --> 00:53:21,125
Never in a million years would have
made um and I want you Francis the

869
00:53:21,125 --> 00:53:27,215
mute comparison and now I'll never
unsee it in the best way but you

870
00:53:27,215 --> 00:53:28,755
know, we've gotten to see them.

871
00:53:29,235 --> 00:53:33,125
a couple of times since they've gotten
back together and I think there's

872
00:53:33,135 --> 00:53:41,177
a lot of Leon Ware, Marvin Gaye,
sophistication, and restraint in the

873
00:53:41,187 --> 00:53:45,517
older, wiser Mars Volta, the, the
new members currently in the band.

874
00:53:45,967 --> 00:53:49,737
I, I think they would invite
and appreciate that comparison

875
00:53:50,178 --> 00:53:50,568
Cliff: Yes.

876
00:53:50,793 --> 00:53:51,103
Kyle: more.

877
00:53:51,153 --> 00:53:54,083
They're still more scary
than sexy, but, uh,

878
00:53:54,188 --> 00:53:56,258
Cliff: about to say, I really
don't want to see them either.

879
00:53:56,338 --> 00:54:00,418
Either one of the people in the Marzavulta
try to turn their sexy on too hard.

880
00:54:00,971 --> 00:54:02,631
but yes, agreed.

881
00:54:02,998 --> 00:54:03,418
Kyle: It's um,

882
00:54:03,778 --> 00:54:08,815
they are both simply a mirror inviting
you to, release your inhibitions

883
00:54:08,815 --> 00:54:10,245
and feel the rain on your skin.

884
00:54:10,823 --> 00:54:12,963
Cliff: but yeah, I'd say
beyond those things as well.

885
00:54:12,973 --> 00:54:14,973
And then I'd love to hear
what stood out for you.

886
00:54:15,373 --> 00:54:17,893
A couple of things that I think
are worth paying attention to.

887
00:54:18,363 --> 00:54:23,083
First of all, on after the dance, the
instrumental version of that track.

888
00:54:23,143 --> 00:54:24,013
Kyle: Taylor's version.

889
00:54:24,013 --> 00:54:29,113
Mm hmm.

890
00:54:29,168 --> 00:54:32,238
Cliff: are fun things happening
there that my brain kept forgetting

891
00:54:32,238 --> 00:54:35,378
to remember because that's a lot of
times how I experience listening to

892
00:54:35,378 --> 00:54:36,948
music that I feel like is important.

893
00:54:37,218 --> 00:54:38,848
I'm trying to pay too much
attention to you, right?

894
00:54:39,328 --> 00:54:44,450
I kept forgetting that what I was
hearing in that song Was a synth, because

895
00:54:44,450 --> 00:54:46,210
it gets played a lot like a guitar.

896
00:54:46,577 --> 00:54:46,777
And

897
00:54:46,777 --> 00:54:50,447
then, but then my brain would do the whole
I'd go all the way around the circle.

898
00:54:51,037 --> 00:54:52,758
Because it'd be like,
who's playing guitar?

899
00:54:53,125 --> 00:54:54,335
That's a cool way to play guitar.

900
00:54:54,565 --> 00:54:55,525
That's not a guitar.

901
00:54:55,735 --> 00:54:56,385
That's a synth.

902
00:54:56,705 --> 00:54:59,965
Oh, that's cool that he's doing an
instrumental track on this solo album.

903
00:55:00,555 --> 00:55:02,565
Oh wait, who's playing synth?

904
00:55:03,305 --> 00:55:04,095
Marvin Gaye.

905
00:55:04,365 --> 00:55:04,895
Oh!

906
00:55:05,115 --> 00:55:05,965
Oh shit!

907
00:55:06,135 --> 00:55:07,525
Kyle: He's still saying it, my boy.

908
00:55:08,255 --> 00:55:08,735
Cliff: got it.

909
00:55:09,065 --> 00:55:12,855
Kyle: I did also have the thought, Cliff
is somewhere on a ski lift right now

910
00:55:12,935 --> 00:55:15,605
making mouth noises to capture the synth.

911
00:55:16,015 --> 00:55:20,785
That's such a you thing to
do, like, Bow, bow, bow.

912
00:55:21,365 --> 00:55:25,295
Like, I hope to god, I just hope he's
on a lift by himself and nobody else

913
00:55:25,295 --> 00:55:28,235
is like, My god, who is this man?

914
00:55:28,602 --> 00:55:31,390
Cliff: And I'd almost feel a
little hesitant to let someone

915
00:55:31,390 --> 00:55:34,950
know I was listening to this
record by myself all day, I think

916
00:55:35,317 --> 00:55:36,527
Kyle: Yep, yep,

917
00:55:36,894 --> 00:55:37,284
Cliff: Hey, were you.

918
00:55:37,284 --> 00:55:37,814
listening to you?

919
00:55:37,854 --> 00:55:39,854
I want you on repeat

920
00:55:40,221 --> 00:55:41,471
Kyle: I have a wife!

921
00:55:41,761 --> 00:55:43,011
I'm a wife guy!

922
00:55:43,271 --> 00:55:46,081
No, no, no!

923
00:55:46,081 --> 00:55:47,901
It's not what it loo I was in the pool!

924
00:55:48,268 --> 00:55:49,298
Synth.

925
00:55:49,665 --> 00:55:51,432
Cliff: yeah, so what stood out to you

926
00:55:51,799 --> 00:55:56,199
Kyle: You know, once I read the David Ritz
book, it was hard not to see everything

927
00:55:56,209 --> 00:55:58,649
about Marvin Gaye in dichotomies.

928
00:55:59,250 --> 00:56:03,677
and I know our brains are primed to
see, Opposites and dichotomies and

929
00:56:03,677 --> 00:56:10,789
pairs and stuff everywhere, but,
sort of a, the, the low end, ran so

930
00:56:11,029 --> 00:56:13,424
the flourishes could fly type thing.

931
00:56:13,754 --> 00:56:18,821
The first thing, surprisingly, that
I noticed once I noticed that I like

932
00:56:18,901 --> 00:56:22,171
wasn't noticing vibing really hard for.

933
00:56:22,836 --> 00:56:26,246
A stupendously long time, I was like,
Oh, I should probably actually focus.

934
00:56:26,246 --> 00:56:29,350
If we're going to talk about this,
it was like such a delightful thing,

935
00:56:29,350 --> 00:56:32,490
you know, like being on a lazy
river and being like, Oh, I'm drunk.

936
00:56:32,490 --> 00:56:33,260
I should get out.

937
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:35,210
was sort of my first sensation.

938
00:56:35,210 --> 00:56:40,170
And once I pushed past that into any
level of awareness, the first thing

939
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:45,767
was actually the rhythm section, which
is like not immediate in the mix.

940
00:56:46,227 --> 00:56:51,087
It doesn't really need to announce
itself, which is not a Mars Volta thing.

941
00:56:51,575 --> 00:56:55,355
It was kind of motoric, like I was
like, Oh shit, this is kind of like

942
00:56:55,355 --> 00:57:02,175
a can record almost a little bit like
they're locked into a groove and it's

943
00:57:02,185 --> 00:57:08,655
so tasteful and gentlemanly, there's not
a single hit or vibration or anything

944
00:57:08,665 --> 00:57:10,675
more than is absolutely necessary.

945
00:57:11,025 --> 00:57:15,905
Nothing is delivered too hard or
overtly because like if you overdid

946
00:57:15,905 --> 00:57:18,095
anything with the lyrical content.

947
00:57:18,755 --> 00:57:20,275
It would be kitsch.

948
00:57:20,585 --> 00:57:21,395
It'd be gross.

949
00:57:21,762 --> 00:57:28,886
So the restraint, the clear power
and prowess of like fills and things

950
00:57:28,916 --> 00:57:32,023
like, it's just so, so locked in.

951
00:57:32,273 --> 00:57:34,923
And there's so much to appreciate just
from a rhythm section perspective.

952
00:57:35,283 --> 00:57:36,993
And to your point it's funk.

953
00:57:37,093 --> 00:57:38,613
It's just, it's gentlemen's funk.

954
00:57:39,210 --> 00:57:41,960
But then it's full, the
record is full of flourishes.

955
00:57:42,209 --> 00:57:44,749
it's an embarrassment of riches.

956
00:57:45,138 --> 00:57:48,168
I love records that surface
new layers of things.

957
00:57:48,168 --> 00:57:52,928
As you get familiar deep in the mix,
you know, weird in a headphone channel

958
00:57:52,928 --> 00:57:57,558
or whatever, the mix is so subtle,
like the delivery of the record itself.

959
00:57:57,558 --> 00:57:59,249
And, it's very much like.

960
00:57:59,341 --> 00:58:03,601
discovering new things about
the person that you love and are

961
00:58:03,601 --> 00:58:05,071
choosing to be with in that way.

962
00:58:05,071 --> 00:58:06,811
So there's like a beautiful mirror there.

963
00:58:07,493 --> 00:58:12,170
you talked about guitar like guitar and
horn flourishes are way way deep in this

964
00:58:12,180 --> 00:58:18,417
so like in after the dance Parentheses
vocal the last song in the record Uh,

965
00:58:18,417 --> 00:58:23,318
there's great guitar and horn flourishes
in the right stereo channel Um, there's

966
00:58:23,318 --> 00:58:28,418
sort of a, you know, if you are a jam
band person, which we are not there's

967
00:58:28,418 --> 00:58:33,838
that middle section of songs, three,
three songs sort of between interludes.

968
00:58:34,328 --> 00:58:39,408
One of them is all the way around and
just after the minute mark in there,

969
00:58:39,458 --> 00:58:44,638
there's little high hat barks, the
little and just the drum pattern.

970
00:58:44,639 --> 00:58:47,838
If you want to talk about killer
drum stuff all the way around is

971
00:58:47,838 --> 00:58:49,488
the drum song for me on the record.

972
00:58:49,855 --> 00:58:54,495
Come Live With Me Angel is one of my
favorite songs of all time and I came

973
00:58:54,495 --> 00:58:59,005
across it because it was sampled by
G Unit and we've talked before about

974
00:58:59,005 --> 00:59:00,745
how sampling is my gateway drug.

975
00:59:01,112 --> 00:59:03,292
Yeah, points for the G Unit reference.

976
00:59:03,918 --> 00:59:07,598
In the bridge, there's
I think a Fender Rhodes.

977
00:59:07,718 --> 00:59:09,738
It's like almost clavinet y.

978
00:59:09,748 --> 00:59:11,008
It's some kind of keyboard.

979
00:59:11,672 --> 00:59:13,372
between three and three
and a half minutes.

980
00:59:13,807 --> 00:59:16,827
That really adds flourish and meet.

981
00:59:17,194 --> 00:59:21,244
there's flute, I think in this record,
there's no flute in the credits,

982
00:59:21,244 --> 00:59:25,394
but I definitely hear like very
sultry, low register jazz flute.

983
00:59:25,964 --> 00:59:27,584
Very like very tasteful.

984
00:59:28,124 --> 00:59:31,284
You know, we've shared that Tom Waits,
a gentleman is someone who can play

985
00:59:31,284 --> 00:59:35,444
the accordion, but doesn't that like,
there's, I love Bobby Humphrey, but

986
00:59:35,444 --> 00:59:37,574
there's no, like, this is jazz flute.

987
00:59:37,743 --> 00:59:41,173
and then, you know, I know we're going
to talk about vocals and like vocals are

988
00:59:41,173 --> 00:59:43,373
really the star of the show, I think.

989
00:59:43,967 --> 00:59:48,364
but there's also talking, there's
very like predecessor to hip hop,

990
00:59:48,554 --> 00:59:50,294
like talking my shit talking.

991
00:59:50,814 --> 00:59:55,089
So at the beginning of feel all my
love, which is probably like the

992
00:59:55,089 --> 00:59:57,099
most erotic song on the record.

993
00:59:57,109 --> 00:59:58,889
He says, Hey, you got another J.

994
00:59:58,953 --> 01:00:02,063
And if you blink you miss
it, but it's just like, oh

995
01:00:02,063 --> 01:00:04,352
man, that that's some G shit.

996
01:00:04,719 --> 01:00:06,986
So it's just like, it's, it's cool.

997
01:00:07,146 --> 01:00:10,036
You listen to it a couple of times here
and you're like, man, this record is cool.

998
01:00:10,466 --> 01:00:12,396
And I think it's there.

999
01:00:12,406 --> 01:00:16,366
There's a really tight base
with a really clear flavor.

1000
01:00:16,733 --> 01:00:20,183
And then it's got little ingredients,
little accents all over it.

1001
01:00:20,550 --> 01:00:22,850
And every time you listen,
there's a new delight.

1002
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:24,410
It's so flavorful.

1003
01:00:24,554 --> 01:00:31,458
So those are all the sort of literal
things, but, I guess my next question for

1004
01:00:31,458 --> 01:00:36,125
you is like, how do you listen to the,
like, where is this best appreciated?

1005
01:00:36,265 --> 01:00:39,905
We've talked about, you know,
road, road records, time and place

1006
01:00:39,905 --> 01:00:41,185
records, headphone records, whatever.

1007
01:00:41,195 --> 01:00:43,025
Like, where does this sit for you?

1008
01:00:43,545 --> 01:00:44,755
in a cliff day.

1009
01:00:45,154 --> 01:00:51,061
Cliff: Yeah, this one's fun because It
we usually have fun creatively slotting

1010
01:00:51,691 --> 01:00:54,181
Answers into this question for both of us.

1011
01:00:54,548 --> 01:00:56,558
Kyle: We should have made
this episode a drinking game.

1012
01:00:56,925 --> 01:00:59,805
Cliff: This one in particular
calling it like a difficult listen

1013
01:00:59,805 --> 01:01:02,165
isn't really gonna do the trick.

1014
01:01:02,775 --> 01:01:08,685
One thing I took note of was that
I found active listening of this

1015
01:01:08,685 --> 01:01:11,502
record to be tough sometimes.

1016
01:01:12,242 --> 01:01:16,372
Because I don't really think, that's
what I'm supposed to be doing most

1017
01:01:16,372 --> 01:01:18,762
of the time that this record is on.

1018
01:01:19,142 --> 01:01:20,832
I don't think it was really made for that.

1019
01:01:21,412 --> 01:01:21,902
Um,

1020
01:01:22,537 --> 01:01:24,967
Kyle: a bit like looking at
a naked person in the light.

1021
01:01:25,602 --> 01:01:28,272
Not that you're not supposed
to do that, but it's just like,

1022
01:01:28,272 --> 01:01:30,162
it's like, whoa, there, whoa.

1023
01:01:30,532 --> 01:01:30,892
There it is.

1024
01:01:30,952 --> 01:01:31,792
That's what that is.

1025
01:01:31,792 --> 01:01:32,042
Yeah.

1026
01:01:32,637 --> 01:01:34,887
Cliff: Which can be fine for
a moment, but if you're just

1027
01:01:34,887 --> 01:01:36,827
standing there for several minutes,

1028
01:01:36,952 --> 01:01:37,272
Kyle: Okay.

1029
01:01:37,272 --> 01:01:38,232
Now it's getting weird.

1030
01:01:38,242 --> 01:01:39,782
I'm going to, I'm going to put a robe on.

1031
01:01:39,982 --> 01:01:40,262
Yeah.

1032
01:01:40,629 --> 01:01:41,699
Cliff: I mean to that end.

1033
01:01:41,859 --> 01:01:43,309
Look, we're all adults here.

1034
01:01:43,559 --> 01:01:44,929
The, uh,

1035
01:01:45,059 --> 01:01:47,699
Kyle: you're not an adult, please
stop listening at this time.

1036
01:01:48,329 --> 01:01:50,659
Cliff: I mean, I don't even think
I'm going to tell you anything wrong,

1037
01:01:50,659 --> 01:01:54,990
but like, uh, the, funny implication
of what you could be doing while

1038
01:01:54,990 --> 01:01:59,750
you listening, while you listen
to this record is not a bad call.

1039
01:02:00,117 --> 01:02:01,287
Pretty good vibes,

1040
01:02:01,287 --> 01:02:01,707
man.

1041
01:02:01,982 --> 01:02:04,172
Kyle: most obvious answer
is not the worst one.

1042
01:02:04,347 --> 01:02:04,777
Cliff: Yeah.

1043
01:02:05,144 --> 01:02:05,924
Kyle: Well, well

1044
01:02:06,009 --> 01:02:09,589
Cliff: which, you know, this will, this
has not been, is not, it will not be

1045
01:02:09,589 --> 01:02:15,483
a podcast of things we recommend to
have sex to, but not a bad choice here.

1046
01:02:15,850 --> 01:02:20,457
Kyle: for the sake of the listeners,
Again, we've been friends almost a

1047
01:02:20,457 --> 01:02:25,287
quarter century, and that is not a
frequent topic of discussion in our

1048
01:02:25,287 --> 01:02:29,932
friendship, so it's certainly not
going to be central subject matter

1049
01:02:30,214 --> 01:02:31,504
Cliff: your point about vocals though.

1050
01:02:31,644 --> 01:02:37,400
Yeah, like so Kind of swinging then
into, what, what really happened

1051
01:02:37,490 --> 01:02:42,030
on this record, especially while
it was being written, isn't really

1052
01:02:42,300 --> 01:02:44,460
a phase of this record, right?

1053
01:02:44,460 --> 01:02:49,235
It was sort of like rewritten,
re interpolated for the

1054
01:02:49,235 --> 01:02:50,615
version that we know now.

1055
01:02:50,982 --> 01:02:55,133
so one big thing that was happening
with a lot of intention that seems

1056
01:02:55,133 --> 01:02:58,563
fairly obvious, but especially when
you start shifting into things to

1057
01:02:58,563 --> 01:03:02,283
really focus on or draw out about
this record you mentioned the vocals.

1058
01:03:02,605 --> 01:03:02,965
Okay.

1059
01:03:03,332 --> 01:03:05,992
Uh, non Gaye is a.

1060
01:03:06,482 --> 01:03:12,092
Fantastic vocalist, crossed
the board, period, endlessly

1061
01:03:12,092 --> 01:03:17,162
talented, very, very good, had
already proven himself quite well,

1062
01:03:17,552 --> 01:03:17,902
uh,

1063
01:03:18,052 --> 01:03:18,202
Kyle: and an

1064
01:03:18,762 --> 01:03:19,822
inimitable,

1065
01:03:20,189 --> 01:03:23,989
he's got that Sinatra thing where even
if you try to sound like Marvin Gaye,

1066
01:03:23,989 --> 01:03:28,429
you can't, you can sound great, you
can't sound like Marvin Gaye, you know,

1067
01:03:28,709 --> 01:03:31,849
you know, when he opens his
mouth, it's Marvin Gaye,

1068
01:03:32,299 --> 01:03:38,736
Cliff: yeah, and he had that ability to,
to seemingly effortlessly switch between,

1069
01:03:38,796 --> 01:03:45,856
nearly forceful, high pitched singing,
but then could switch into that like,

1070
01:03:46,156 --> 01:03:47,256
Kyle: but with melody,

1071
01:03:47,676 --> 01:03:48,066
Cliff: Yeah,

1072
01:03:48,066 --> 01:03:48,186
I

1073
01:03:48,186 --> 01:03:52,776
can't even begin to make my voice
as deep and smooth as he could do on

1074
01:03:52,776 --> 01:03:57,526
demand, switching between those two,
and that alone, is an incredible feat.

1075
01:03:57,736 --> 01:04:03,316
But he just had immense control
over how he used his vocals.

1076
01:04:03,696 --> 01:04:10,556
Um, he like famously was able to record
vocals laying down, which is like not

1077
01:04:10,586 --> 01:04:15,233
a thing that a normal person can do to
begin with, much less record, you know,

1078
01:04:15,233 --> 01:04:17,696
some of your favorite, most well known.

1079
01:04:18,216 --> 01:04:20,736
Songs with vocal performances of all time.

1080
01:04:21,126 --> 01:04:27,527
So he was an effortless master But on
this particular record, I wouldn't say

1081
01:04:27,767 --> 01:04:33,653
that he Changed how much effort energy
talent he was applying to it but he

1082
01:04:33,653 --> 01:04:40,128
did seem to along with Leon Ware make
a Um, really intentional choices to

1083
01:04:40,128 --> 01:04:45,955
control his voice, in ways that weren't
as common, especially across the prior

1084
01:04:45,955 --> 01:04:54,591
records, to the degree that, one kind
of funny review from Robert Christgau,

1085
01:04:54,711 --> 01:04:58,291
who we love to just read in general,
cause he's always got fun things to say.

1086
01:04:58,833 --> 01:04:59,273
but.

1087
01:04:59,425 --> 01:05:04,452
when he was reviewing this record a long
time ago, he actually gave it a, a C plus,

1088
01:05:04,492 --> 01:05:08,702
which is, he's one of the people who's I
don't really need to approve or disapprove

1089
01:05:08,702 --> 01:05:10,332
of the ratings you put on a thing.

1090
01:05:10,342 --> 01:05:12,202
I just really like to
read what you have to say.

1091
01:05:12,832 --> 01:05:17,262
But he's always extremely thoughtful and
obviously very intelligent, always worth

1092
01:05:17,262 --> 01:05:19,019
reading what he does in his reviews.

1093
01:05:19,444 --> 01:05:22,834
Kyle: mean to me and you can impress
whatever Rorschach on this that you

1094
01:05:22,834 --> 01:05:25,444
want based on your, your personal views.

1095
01:05:26,034 --> 01:05:29,694
He's the Larry David of,
of talking about music.

1096
01:05:29,984 --> 01:05:33,434
Like he's, he's always got to
take, it's always totally his.

1097
01:05:33,784 --> 01:05:37,344
It very often makes you think wow, I've
never really thought of it in that way.

1098
01:05:37,354 --> 01:05:40,574
And why would a human being
have that train of thought?

1099
01:05:40,941 --> 01:05:42,971
And okay.

1100
01:05:42,971 --> 01:05:43,009
Okay.

1101
01:05:43,009 --> 01:05:43,046
Okay.

1102
01:05:43,476 --> 01:05:43,716
Okay.

1103
01:05:43,786 --> 01:05:46,560
Well, most of the time when I've, I
finished a Christgau review, I'm like,

1104
01:05:46,603 --> 01:05:50,611
all right, but it always changes and
very often expands my perspective.

1105
01:05:50,978 --> 01:05:52,668
So most of the time I'm
like, what an asshole.

1106
01:05:52,688 --> 01:05:54,098
And then I'm like, was he right?

1107
01:05:54,479 --> 01:05:57,560
Cliff: Sort of to that end, you know,
one of the things he wrote in his

1108
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:02,327
review was, When he talked about I
Want You, he said, As a Marvin Gaye

1109
01:06:02,357 --> 01:06:04,487
record, it's a Leon Ware record.

1110
01:06:04,854 --> 01:06:09,614
Uh, Ware is the producer who co wrote
every one of these which is more than

1111
01:06:09,614 --> 01:06:13,644
Marvin Gaye can claim that he produced
or co wrote on that same album.

1112
01:06:14,251 --> 01:06:19,051
But was it where, quote, okay, But was it
where who instructed Marvin to eliminate

1113
01:06:19,071 --> 01:06:20,841
all depth and power from his voice?

1114
01:06:21,171 --> 01:06:25,281
I mean, if you're into insisting on sex,
it's in bad taste to whine about it.

1115
01:06:25,901 --> 01:06:26,231
Which is

1116
01:06:26,721 --> 01:06:27,841
a very good sentence.

1117
01:06:27,871 --> 01:06:29,628
Yes, a very good sentence.

1118
01:06:30,058 --> 01:06:32,938
So whether, this is
another exercise, right?

1119
01:06:33,418 --> 01:06:35,238
You don't have to agree or disagree.

1120
01:06:35,953 --> 01:06:39,423
With that interpretation of what's
happening here, because what we can get

1121
01:06:39,423 --> 01:06:44,193
from it, without judgment, is the fact
that someone who very well understands

1122
01:06:44,193 --> 01:06:50,283
not only Marvin Gaye, but a lot of music
writ large, identifies that Marvin was

1123
01:06:50,313 --> 01:06:56,310
intentionally restraining himself here
on a record that is ostensibly about

1124
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:59,560
losing your restraint in certain respects.

1125
01:07:00,100 --> 01:07:02,610
And so, again, for
better or worse, whether

1126
01:07:02,740 --> 01:07:06,630
Kyle: feeling, but feeling safe
to do so, you know, not, not being

1127
01:07:06,630 --> 01:07:08,590
uninhibited for uninhibited sake.

1128
01:07:08,957 --> 01:07:09,397
Cliff: right.

1129
01:07:09,654 --> 01:07:12,984
So, to make that choice is not
only clearly intentional, but

1130
01:07:13,144 --> 01:07:17,984
is an interesting thing to note
from, you know, a world renowned

1131
01:07:17,994 --> 01:07:20,104
vocalist cranking out this record.

1132
01:07:20,454 --> 01:07:27,089
That is true at the same time that
this is when Marvin was also continuing

1133
01:07:27,089 --> 01:07:31,829
to build his reputation for not only
being a really good vocalist, but

1134
01:07:31,839 --> 01:07:35,689
also really good at understanding
how to produce his own voice.

1135
01:07:36,079 --> 01:07:39,799
So he was becoming more well
known for creating his own

1136
01:07:39,809 --> 01:07:44,119
backing tracks and learning how
to perfect what that looked like.

1137
01:07:44,579 --> 01:07:50,389
So one of the quotes from this record,
uh, was for, I want you, Marvin did.

1138
01:07:50,554 --> 01:07:55,034
The song for, I want you, the song
Marvin did the background, the lead

1139
01:07:55,134 --> 01:07:57,254
and the ad lib in a single night.

1140
01:07:57,354 --> 01:07:58,874
That's three songs in one.

1141
01:07:58,944 --> 01:08:00,214
That is all Marvin Gaye.

1142
01:08:00,764 --> 01:08:01,994
It's part of the quote, right?

1143
01:08:02,492 --> 01:08:07,317
so, spiritually aligned with the many
artists we've talked about on this podcast

1144
01:08:07,317 --> 01:08:12,417
who are prolific or able to crank out a
ton of ideas really quickly or totally

1145
01:08:12,417 --> 01:08:17,547
control their sound or come up with the
ideas that they want to produce exactly

1146
01:08:17,547 --> 01:08:18,837
what it is that they're envisioning.

1147
01:08:19,207 --> 01:08:24,107
For Marvin Gaye, that is a control
of his voice that goes, it's like an

1148
01:08:24,117 --> 01:08:27,857
order of magnitude beyond the thing
that we're thinking about when we

1149
01:08:27,857 --> 01:08:29,777
think about being able to control your

1150
01:08:29,996 --> 01:08:30,866
Kyle: I also think it's.

1151
01:08:30,947 --> 01:08:32,317
Cliff: he was constructing.

1152
01:08:32,870 --> 01:08:37,396
Kyle: acknowledging that there's some
of the Herbie Hancock thing in play here

1153
01:08:37,406 --> 01:08:42,806
where he wasn't afraid of new tools,
and in fact, he didn't let the tools

1154
01:08:42,806 --> 01:08:47,626
dictate what he was going to do, but he
saw how they could expand his palette of

1155
01:08:47,626 --> 01:08:52,366
expression and Herbie Hancock, to me, is
like the master of that over the years.

1156
01:08:52,910 --> 01:08:57,194
but for what's going on, you could put
more channels, more tracks to tape.

1157
01:08:57,384 --> 01:09:03,411
That was when 4 16 and whatever track
started becoming a thing in the studio.

1158
01:09:03,441 --> 01:09:05,521
And that was the first time we
started experimenting with that.

1159
01:09:05,521 --> 01:09:11,121
And so a few records in, we have a guy
that has like, not made it his thing.

1160
01:09:11,121 --> 01:09:15,593
It wasn't like a novelty, but think
it was like a craft that he had.

1161
01:09:16,283 --> 01:09:21,843
Kind of mastered so you could listen to
the record a hundred times and just try to

1162
01:09:21,843 --> 01:09:26,563
focus really intently for all 40 minutes
of the run time on vocals and just be

1163
01:09:26,563 --> 01:09:30,900
like, my God, oh my God, wow, dude, wow.

1164
01:09:31,575 --> 01:09:36,345
you could really sort of Zen
out with how can one person hear

1165
01:09:36,755 --> 01:09:38,249
that many layers in their head.

1166
01:09:38,549 --> 01:09:43,515
Cliff: And maybe I'm pulling or pushing
on this a little too hard, but I think

1167
01:09:43,525 --> 01:09:49,605
that helps align sort of spiritually with
the record's intent to, because being

1168
01:09:49,605 --> 01:09:53,815
able to get far enough into that music
where, you know, you were mentioning that

1169
01:09:53,815 --> 01:09:55,705
rhythm section and how locked in they are.

1170
01:09:56,072 --> 01:09:59,522
feeling that you can sort of get
when you lock into the record

1171
01:09:59,692 --> 01:10:01,362
along with everybody else.

1172
01:10:01,702 --> 01:10:06,022
And there's sort of, there, there begins
to be this space between that rhythm

1173
01:10:06,022 --> 01:10:10,452
that you locked into, and then whatever
it is you'd like to put your focus on.

1174
01:10:10,892 --> 01:10:15,962
And so to your point Not only do the
vocals do that well in general, but

1175
01:10:16,047 --> 01:10:21,657
this alignment to the idea of like,
there's a rhythm in our body that's

1176
01:10:21,667 --> 01:10:25,467
going on now, and we're going to lock
into each other, and there's going to be

1177
01:10:25,467 --> 01:10:31,604
a rhythm here, but we're still talking,
and whether that's like literal speech,

1178
01:10:31,614 --> 01:10:35,458
whether that's singing, whether that's
eye contact for a moment, You've got

1179
01:10:35,468 --> 01:10:39,628
that rhythm that's locked in and it's
staying and then you've got this other

1180
01:10:39,628 --> 01:10:43,748
thing that you're sort of participating
in and you're, you're putting all of

1181
01:10:43,748 --> 01:10:48,568
your sort of energy and attention into
so that you can pay attention to what

1182
01:10:48,568 --> 01:10:50,218
your partner is telling you right then.

1183
01:10:50,448 --> 01:10:50,788
Right?

1184
01:10:51,326 --> 01:10:54,136
I don't usually find a great.

1185
01:10:54,486 --> 01:10:59,246
Cliché way to listen to records,
especially sexy records like

1186
01:10:59,246 --> 01:11:00,806
this, but it works here.

1187
01:11:01,146 --> 01:11:06,336
You can really lock into that idea
of having rhythm with someone and

1188
01:11:06,336 --> 01:11:10,871
then a separate but, simultaneous
conversation with somebody

1189
01:11:11,111 --> 01:11:12,231
where you're just expressing.

1190
01:11:12,651 --> 01:11:16,021
You're saying shit that comes to
your brain, they're saying shit back

1191
01:11:16,021 --> 01:11:17,361
to you that comes to their brain.

1192
01:11:17,711 --> 01:11:19,241
None of it actually makes sense.

1193
01:11:19,241 --> 01:11:23,111
If any, if either of you were to say
any, either of those things, outside

1194
01:11:23,111 --> 01:11:26,291
of that very particular context,
you'd be like, shut the f shut up.

1195
01:11:26,441 --> 01:11:28,501
Don't ever say that again, right?

1196
01:11:28,521 --> 01:11:31,831
But inside of those
moments, it's, it works.

1197
01:11:31,971 --> 01:11:33,271
It works because you're locked

1198
01:11:33,561 --> 01:11:40,158
Kyle: I mean you, you brought to mind, you
know, I was talking about Fela Kuti, that

1199
01:11:40,218 --> 01:11:46,654
idea of rhythm, helping to concentrate
expression and elevate it, is sort of the

1200
01:11:46,674 --> 01:11:52,664
sort of macro sociological political way
into the spectrum is what Fela was always

1201
01:11:52,664 --> 01:11:54,444
doing like music must be for revolution.

1202
01:11:54,444 --> 01:11:57,274
And this is the more
intimate person to person.

1203
01:11:57,274 --> 01:11:58,704
But I think it's very much.

1204
01:11:59,084 --> 01:12:05,012
I think they exist on the same continuum,
for me, the moment and everything

1205
01:12:05,062 --> 01:12:06,492
resonates with everybody differently.

1206
01:12:06,492 --> 01:12:12,331
But for me, the moment, That typifies
the greatness of this record, uh, is

1207
01:12:12,471 --> 01:12:17,588
the beginning of since I had you, he
just sing some descending notes and

1208
01:12:17,588 --> 01:12:23,875
there's not even really words attached
to it, but he gets across more about

1209
01:12:23,885 --> 01:12:30,575
love or lust in the literal notes and
the delivery of those notes than most

1210
01:12:30,595 --> 01:12:34,085
people do in a whole career of love songs.

1211
01:12:34,615 --> 01:12:35,573
there's goosebumps.

1212
01:12:35,583 --> 01:12:39,093
There's chicken skin type power in it.

1213
01:12:39,708 --> 01:12:43,188
and the gift of Marvin Gaye was
to do so much with so little.

1214
01:12:43,558 --> 01:12:48,488
I mean, like it's, you could play a 10
or 15 snippet of second snippet of just

1215
01:12:48,488 --> 01:12:50,965
that song and be like, whoa, where's more?

1216
01:12:51,005 --> 01:12:52,385
I need more of that right now.

1217
01:12:52,677 --> 01:12:57,377
Cliff: to me, it is like the very
beginning of a change that's gonna come.

1218
01:12:57,837 --> 01:13:05,957
And the way that Sam Cooke the first
three words say more than a book you could

1219
01:13:05,962 --> 01:13:06,822
Kyle: I was born.

1220
01:13:06,877 --> 01:13:08,227
Cliff: about anything.

1221
01:13:08,237 --> 01:13:08,657
Yeah,

1222
01:13:09,024 --> 01:13:09,924
Kyle: Other people,

1223
01:13:10,484 --> 01:13:12,254
other people recognize it too though.

1224
01:13:12,264 --> 01:13:15,224
Like there's a litany of
great quotes from interviews.

1225
01:13:15,551 --> 01:13:19,051
you know, there, there's that long
interview with Leon where that's so good.

1226
01:13:19,581 --> 01:13:22,351
Leon tells the story of the first time
he played it for Barry Gordy in like

1227
01:13:22,351 --> 01:13:25,541
a room full of 30 Motown executives
and the whole room went quiet.

1228
01:13:26,041 --> 01:13:28,311
But then I love this one from
the Michael Eric Dyson book.

1229
01:13:28,311 --> 01:13:31,361
He was talking to Gary
Harris, who's an A& R at EMI.

1230
01:13:31,448 --> 01:13:34,968
And he said, with the opening on
soon, I'll be loving you again

1231
01:13:34,968 --> 01:13:36,298
with the congas and the strings.

1232
01:13:36,328 --> 01:13:37,828
It's like the sun is rising.

1233
01:13:38,208 --> 01:13:40,608
It's a very cinematic
approach to the whole thing.

1234
01:13:41,028 --> 01:13:45,458
It shows a thing Quincy Jones called ear
candy, the voicings and the arrangements

1235
01:13:45,468 --> 01:13:49,538
convey not only mood, but time,
place, and image he's talking about.

1236
01:13:49,763 --> 01:13:51,213
I dreamed of you this morning.

1237
01:13:51,293 --> 01:13:52,033
It's crazy.

1238
01:13:52,373 --> 01:13:54,623
So the morning sunrise thing.

1239
01:13:54,993 --> 01:13:58,223
The other thing about Marvin in the
song is he always, no matter what he

1240
01:13:58,223 --> 01:14:02,313
was doing, how many risks you would
take, was a radical traditionalist and

1241
01:14:02,343 --> 01:14:04,573
always held on to his doo wop upbringing.

1242
01:14:04,893 --> 01:14:08,563
Those background harmonies, no matter
how increasingly percussive he got,

1243
01:14:08,583 --> 01:14:12,813
how funky, the background vocals were
always steeped in that tradition.

1244
01:14:13,333 --> 01:14:17,559
So the dichotomy of wanting to go in
more radical directions and doing it

1245
01:14:17,569 --> 01:14:22,849
but Sort of having a really regimented
foundation like the sort of like the

1246
01:14:22,849 --> 01:14:27,469
dna of the music itself So I think the
collaboration really clicked here because

1247
01:14:27,469 --> 01:14:32,579
he found people Who contained the same
sort of strict multitudes that he did.

1248
01:14:32,946 --> 01:14:38,507
Cliff: To that end, we've sort of talked
about ways to step back a little bit

1249
01:14:38,727 --> 01:14:43,497
and let music hit you and specifically
how we could step back and sort of let

1250
01:14:43,497 --> 01:14:50,384
this album just hit and notice and take
a note and move on and move through it.

1251
01:14:50,914 --> 01:14:57,121
But you mentioned a minute ago that vocals
were one of the things that you could have

1252
01:14:57,281 --> 01:15:00,041
a very rewarding experience focusing on.

1253
01:15:00,408 --> 01:15:02,108
I was curious, what else?

1254
01:15:02,475 --> 01:15:06,695
What else did you find could be
something that you could focus on or

1255
01:15:06,745 --> 01:15:11,975
isolate when listening to this record
intentionally, you know, with more

1256
01:15:11,975 --> 01:15:15,945
of an act of listening or trying to
discover a particular part of it?

1257
01:15:16,312 --> 01:15:21,609
Kyle: you and I joke all the time
about how Like, all you do is think,

1258
01:15:21,689 --> 01:15:23,709
and my gift is that I simply do not.

1259
01:15:24,076 --> 01:15:28,596
and that, we learn so much from
each other, in the contrast of how

1260
01:15:28,606 --> 01:15:30,506
that means we both listen to music.

1261
01:15:30,546 --> 01:15:33,506
I can go years loving a song
and being like, that's one

1262
01:15:33,506 --> 01:15:34,546
of my favorite songs ever.

1263
01:15:34,986 --> 01:15:37,876
And then somebody says that
something is in the lyrics,

1264
01:15:37,876 --> 01:15:38,756
and I'm like, no they're not.

1265
01:15:38,806 --> 01:15:41,096
And then I go look it up
and I'm like, oh my god.

1266
01:15:41,463 --> 01:15:42,203
Oh, my God.

1267
01:15:42,213 --> 01:15:45,403
So, I live in a world of
pure vibe at all times.

1268
01:15:46,058 --> 01:15:51,048
so with that, the challenge of this
record is not, is to avoid getting swept

1269
01:15:51,068 --> 01:15:53,968
up in the hypnotic tide of the suite.

1270
01:15:54,298 --> 01:15:57,788
Multiple people called it a suite
in like a jazz or classical sense.

1271
01:15:57,788 --> 01:16:01,188
And I really, that helped
something click for me.

1272
01:16:01,636 --> 01:16:03,936
but the record has no
obvious beginning or end.

1273
01:16:03,976 --> 01:16:06,266
Like you, you could start on track five.

1274
01:16:06,726 --> 01:16:12,097
And just go from anywhere it works on
shuffle, frankly, it's really beautifully

1275
01:16:12,097 --> 01:16:14,401
organically created in that way.

1276
01:16:14,921 --> 01:16:19,651
So I think my advice is to listen, not for
songs, but for small moments to come back

1277
01:16:19,651 --> 01:16:25,601
around to try and find a thing a second or
third time, all the elements in the DNA of

1278
01:16:25,601 --> 01:16:27,531
this thing are, are really, really cool.

1279
01:16:27,871 --> 01:16:28,861
you mentioned synths.

1280
01:16:29,531 --> 01:16:31,641
Not normally a thing that I.

1281
01:16:31,926 --> 01:16:36,956
Primarily listen for, but like, I think
that after the dance instrumental version

1282
01:16:37,496 --> 01:16:42,553
pulls that out if that sound grabs you,
then listen for that all the way through.

1283
01:16:43,093 --> 01:16:48,043
strings are certainly one and
they're not overdone here.

1284
01:16:48,633 --> 01:16:53,550
In modern music, other than, like,
Florence and the Machine, where it's

1285
01:16:53,550 --> 01:16:58,170
like part of the thing, strings normally
signal, like, this is a serious song, or

1286
01:16:58,170 --> 01:17:00,530
a beautiful song, or it's for a movie!

1287
01:17:00,897 --> 01:17:05,410
but string arrangements just sort of
lent to the air of sophistication.

1288
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:08,930
Of the proceedings, it was
just like what you did.

1289
01:17:09,297 --> 01:17:12,057
so the arrangements were done
by Coleridge, Taylor Perkinson,

1290
01:17:12,287 --> 01:17:13,827
who is a cat worth looking up.

1291
01:17:14,047 --> 01:17:18,657
And I think in general, looking through
the personnel credits and clicking the

1292
01:17:18,657 --> 01:17:24,647
deep links is a really worthwhile exercise
on this because it's nothing but top

1293
01:17:24,647 --> 01:17:29,764
guns on this thing, pursuant to your Mars
Volta connection, percussion is a big one.

1294
01:17:30,144 --> 01:17:30,784
So like not.

1295
01:17:30,845 --> 01:17:33,955
drums specifically, but congas and stuff.

1296
01:17:34,430 --> 01:17:39,400
a couple of the loose collective known as
the Funk Brothers played congas on this.

1297
01:17:39,490 --> 01:17:43,640
So like, listen for the conga
patterns on Come Live With Me Angel

1298
01:17:44,230 --> 01:17:45,840
or Soon I'll Be Loving You Again.

1299
01:17:46,227 --> 01:17:47,147
Great conga work.

1300
01:17:47,607 --> 01:17:52,027
And then if you really like that, go
listen to Santana and, any other, like

1301
01:17:52,057 --> 01:17:54,367
Tito Puente and go in that direction.

1302
01:17:55,025 --> 01:17:59,195
the rhythm section we've talked
extensively about, James Gadson on

1303
01:17:59,195 --> 01:18:05,069
the drums is a super bad dude, played
on Donald Byrd and Aretha Franklin

1304
01:18:05,069 --> 01:18:08,784
and tons and tons of, I think he has
like over a thousand credits, maybe

1305
01:18:08,784 --> 01:18:10,074
I'm confusing him with Chuck Rainey.

1306
01:18:10,114 --> 01:18:11,664
Both of them are, are like.

1307
01:18:12,169 --> 01:18:15,569
You know, the most decorated veterans
of their instrument essentially in

1308
01:18:15,719 --> 01:18:19,344
20th century recorded music, four
people played bass on this record.

1309
01:18:19,354 --> 01:18:21,444
Chuck Rainey kind of
be in the biggest name.

1310
01:18:22,051 --> 01:18:26,268
and the baselines on impartial
come live with me angel.

1311
01:18:26,278 --> 01:18:30,898
But especially since I had you are
just like, there's an ascending you.

1312
01:18:30,898 --> 01:18:36,695
Um, short ascending line as Marvin is
going into the chorus, since I had you

1313
01:18:36,695 --> 01:18:41,025
that, that sort of signals the like
elevated heart rate, but it's real subtle.

1314
01:18:41,561 --> 01:18:42,701
it's a blink and you miss it.

1315
01:18:42,701 --> 01:18:46,901
It's the like, the greatest choruses are
the ones you only sing once in the song.

1316
01:18:47,301 --> 01:18:49,321
It doesn't overly announce itself.

1317
01:18:49,335 --> 01:18:55,641
melodic musical bass lines that are
like, so beyond my comprehension.

1318
01:18:56,051 --> 01:18:57,011
But they're so cool.

1319
01:18:57,564 --> 01:18:59,624
and then obviously voice control.

1320
01:18:59,794 --> 01:19:03,674
There's not one iota more of
anything than there needs to be.

1321
01:19:04,121 --> 01:19:07,545
that's sort of the, expert
level part of the whole thing.

1322
01:19:07,616 --> 01:19:11,146
Were there any, any, I know I
just like ran down the whole list.

1323
01:19:11,396 --> 01:19:12,086
What was it?

1324
01:19:12,306 --> 01:19:14,786
Oh, the silence in between tracks.

1325
01:19:14,786 --> 01:19:16,446
Well, I definitely appreciated that.

1326
01:19:17,136 --> 01:19:17,956
What did I miss?

1327
01:19:17,956 --> 01:19:18,726
What else did you like?

1328
01:19:18,755 --> 01:19:21,311
Yeah.

1329
01:19:21,496 --> 01:19:22,266
Cliff: really good options.

1330
01:19:22,276 --> 01:19:25,906
Synths, strings, percussions,
the rhythm section And

1331
01:19:25,906 --> 01:19:29,376
the relationship then between
drums and bass and voice control.

1332
01:19:29,743 --> 01:19:36,247
Strings were the surprise hit for me, and
it did not then surprise me to go back

1333
01:19:36,247 --> 01:19:42,117
and read further interviews and quotes and
all that from those strings being arranged

1334
01:19:42,127 --> 01:19:47,357
at the time and people basically being
literally shocked at how good they were.

1335
01:19:47,817 --> 01:19:51,947
And how good they were coming out
during the the creation of this record

1336
01:19:52,527 --> 01:19:58,684
Because I think I'm not always the go
listen to the surprising thing Person,

1337
01:19:58,814 --> 01:20:02,154
I think that can lead you down some
weird paths that aren't always helpful

1338
01:20:02,164 --> 01:20:09,839
in music but here the strings were A
worthwhile thing to just listen out for

1339
01:20:10,229 --> 01:20:15,359
on a regular basis because they, they
had a, I think you've called a lot of the

1340
01:20:15,359 --> 01:20:21,372
things here, you know, subtle a couple
of times the intentional complexity.

1341
01:20:21,739 --> 01:20:28,929
Sitting within a sort of subtle shell
or packaging in a lot of this music is

1342
01:20:28,959 --> 01:20:31,979
really rewarding to listen to and hear.

1343
01:20:32,379 --> 01:20:36,629
One thing we definitely have to
appreciate about Motown Records

1344
01:20:36,629 --> 01:20:39,309
is they still sound really cool.

1345
01:20:39,889 --> 01:20:44,089
they, they just, they have a pristine
quality to them that really let you

1346
01:20:44,099 --> 01:20:48,756
hear almost spatially the different
layers that get recorded in.

1347
01:20:49,185 --> 01:20:52,395
And so I appreciate those, uh,
about Motown Records in general,

1348
01:20:52,395 --> 01:20:54,415
but yeah, especially strings here.

1349
01:20:54,705 --> 01:20:58,445
You know, I think we've mentioned
some of the other surprises and fun

1350
01:20:58,455 --> 01:21:02,115
things that can catch off guard with
all the rhythm, but yeah, strings.

1351
01:21:02,145 --> 01:21:06,585
And then especially if you are a
vocalist and you've never spent time

1352
01:21:06,585 --> 01:21:10,835
listening to Marvin Gaye on purpose,
now's a real good time to do it.

1353
01:21:11,120 --> 01:21:16,357
just literally listening to every
way that he opens and closes a given

1354
01:21:16,637 --> 01:21:23,437
word, note, phrase, where he breathes,
the way that he ad libs when he does.

1355
01:21:23,778 --> 01:21:29,565
it's a truly interesting exercise
in, watching someone who has every

1356
01:21:29,565 --> 01:21:33,665
right to use their voice as much
as they want to, using it in very

1357
01:21:33,665 --> 01:21:38,862
particular ways to try to, you know,
more or less impress somebody else.

1358
01:21:39,357 --> 01:21:41,037
That they were writing this record for

1359
01:21:41,277 --> 01:21:43,227
Kyle: he was notorious for.

1360
01:21:43,480 --> 01:21:46,650
Not committing anything to tape until.

1361
01:21:47,017 --> 01:21:51,287
Until it was like exactly how
he considered it actualized.

1362
01:21:51,287 --> 01:21:55,094
He spent 13 months on the
vocals for this and it shows.

1363
01:21:55,384 --> 01:21:55,994
So

1364
01:21:56,734 --> 01:21:58,214
I don't think it's overstating it.

1365
01:21:58,254 --> 01:21:59,834
I think you're exactly right.

1366
01:22:00,471 --> 01:22:05,641
every choice to do or not do
or do a certain way is deeply

1367
01:22:05,671 --> 01:22:07,201
deliberate and considered.

1368
01:22:07,671 --> 01:22:09,121
And if you.

1369
01:22:09,786 --> 01:22:14,236
are also a practitioner of the craft
could do no better than to study

1370
01:22:14,736 --> 01:22:17,096
everything he did or decided not to do.

1371
01:22:17,096 --> 01:22:22,076
And if, if you would go right on a
certain run and he goes left, think about

1372
01:22:22,076 --> 01:22:24,466
what other possibilities that opens up.

1373
01:22:24,636 --> 01:22:30,040
Just very, very inventive
and unique in that way.

1374
01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:33,400
And truly like reinvented the form of.

1375
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:35,210
A vocal delivery.

1376
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:38,560
And I think that's the story for
me of this record in a lot of ways

1377
01:22:39,110 --> 01:22:42,560
you know, we'll talk about Ernie
Barnes and the artwork in a minute.

1378
01:22:42,994 --> 01:22:50,104
but I saw comparisons to other
masters of the respective crafts that

1379
01:22:50,759 --> 01:22:52,579
The signal to timelessness to me.

1380
01:22:52,619 --> 01:22:55,129
So like Coleridge, Taylor
Perkinson, the string arranger.

1381
01:22:55,179 --> 01:22:57,059
I love, love that you love the strings.

1382
01:22:57,279 --> 01:23:00,868
I would, would not have picked that answer
for you, but I, it makes me so happy.

1383
01:23:01,405 --> 01:23:03,215
they talked about how he like.

1384
01:23:03,582 --> 01:23:08,392
Evolved the form of classical composition
from the Baroque masters and invoked

1385
01:23:08,402 --> 01:23:13,302
blues and jazz and really sophisticated
and interesting and not overt ways.

1386
01:23:13,822 --> 01:23:18,022
There's a lot of like cool Trojan
horsing, but not for the sake of being

1387
01:23:18,022 --> 01:23:22,372
punk or anything, just because they
have absorbed a lot of inputs and

1388
01:23:22,572 --> 01:23:25,132
synthesize them smartly and uniquely.

1389
01:23:25,422 --> 01:23:29,052
And I think everybody that touched this
record did their own version of that.

1390
01:23:29,472 --> 01:23:31,452
And I take a lot of inspiration from that.

1391
01:23:31,545 --> 01:23:32,405
sort of direction.

1392
01:23:32,732 --> 01:23:37,763
Cliff: so then to this end as we think
about the impact that this record has had

1393
01:23:37,773 --> 01:23:42,988
there's a couple of like very specific
Avenues that we can go down And so we'll

1394
01:23:42,988 --> 01:23:46,538
do both lightly well one of them you were

1395
01:23:46,723 --> 01:23:48,123
Kyle: It's another one
for the drinking game.

1396
01:23:48,123 --> 01:23:49,303
We'll do both, lightly.

1397
01:23:49,670 --> 01:23:56,211
Cliff: You were mentioning the artwork and
that's this is as close to a bit of trivia

1398
01:23:56,381 --> 01:24:00,511
as we'll probably get on this episode, uh,
but it's worth knowing a little bit more

1399
01:24:00,511 --> 01:24:07,821
about that, I think, because it also then
speaks to how pervasive, culturally, this

1400
01:24:08,091 --> 01:24:12,981
thing was, even if every time we think
of Marvin Gaye's most important records,

1401
01:24:13,201 --> 01:24:18,187
we don't necessarily put this one at the
top, or even at number two, so the album

1402
01:24:18,197 --> 01:24:24,999
artwork, Is a painting, pre existed,
prior to becoming the artwork for this.

1403
01:24:25,409 --> 01:24:26,279
It was originally,

1404
01:24:26,364 --> 01:24:27,684
Kyle: you sensing a motif here?

1405
01:24:28,124 --> 01:24:29,824
Leon Ware, Ernie Barnes?

1406
01:24:29,989 --> 01:24:30,889
Cliff: Exactly!

1407
01:24:31,224 --> 01:24:35,534
Kyle: I'm gonna find the stuff I like
and make it mine, but not in a Drake way.

1408
01:24:35,901 --> 01:24:36,661
Cliff: Ha ha

1409
01:24:37,028 --> 01:24:38,008
Kyle: I'm gonna make it

1410
01:24:38,133 --> 01:24:39,763
Cliff: thank Canadian Jesus for that.

1411
01:24:39,793 --> 01:24:40,273
Yeah.

1412
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:41,010
Good

1413
01:24:41,155 --> 01:24:43,065
Kyle: to picture my Jesus wearing

1414
01:24:43,345 --> 01:24:45,235
jeans on top and on the bottom.

1415
01:24:45,602 --> 01:24:50,402
Cliff: So this, this painting, uh,
was called the Sugar Shack that was on

1416
01:24:50,769 --> 01:24:52,749
that became the artwork for this album.

1417
01:24:53,199 --> 01:24:58,179
Uh, it was painted and released
by a, quote, neo mannerist artist

1418
01:24:58,359 --> 01:25:01,409
named Ernie Barnes in 1971.

1419
01:25:01,709 --> 01:25:07,199
Kyle: about music genre, but like art,
art, genre and movement labels are tight.

1420
01:25:07,679 --> 01:25:09,079
I don't know what the difference is.

1421
01:25:09,709 --> 01:25:10,859
I don't know how to parse it.

1422
01:25:11,488 --> 01:25:14,498
I mean, this is the domain
of my wife professionally.

1423
01:25:14,498 --> 01:25:15,808
I should just ask her.

1424
01:25:16,344 --> 01:25:18,654
but yeah, neo mannerist is cool.

1425
01:25:18,654 --> 01:25:22,134
I would like to be called a neo
mannerist, but not an R& B artist.

1426
01:25:22,589 --> 01:25:23,339
And I don't know why.

1427
01:25:23,706 --> 01:25:27,616
Cliff: It'd be cool if they just used
decades like the rest of us to describe

1428
01:25:27,616 --> 01:25:31,366
a period of time instead of putting
neo in front of an old thing that

1429
01:25:31,366 --> 01:25:32,896
happened a hundred years before that.

1430
01:25:33,263 --> 01:25:36,543
Kyle: Yeah, all this is 1976.

1431
01:25:36,910 --> 01:25:37,240
Cliff: Right.

1432
01:25:37,607 --> 01:25:41,187
Marvin Gaye was introduced
to Ernie Barnes, the artist,

1433
01:25:41,327 --> 01:25:43,877
of this album by a colleague.

1434
01:25:44,067 --> 01:25:48,987
It led to him buying eight originals
by Ernie Barnes, including this one,

1435
01:25:49,217 --> 01:25:53,609
The Sugar Shack, and Marvin asked
for permission to use the painting

1436
01:25:53,609 --> 01:25:59,320
as an album cover, and then Barnes
augmented the painting by adding

1437
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:04,050
references to the album, including
the banners hanging from the ceiling

1438
01:26:04,060 --> 01:26:06,120
of the shack promoting the album's

1439
01:26:06,130 --> 01:26:06,640
singles.

1440
01:26:07,030 --> 01:26:10,050
So if you were listening to us
talk and being like, there's no way

1441
01:26:10,050 --> 01:26:13,240
this painting existed before the
album artwork because I've seen the

1442
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:14,750
album artwork and it's about the

1443
01:26:14,750 --> 01:26:15,700
album, like,

1444
01:26:15,865 --> 01:26:17,055
Kyle: affecting me right now?

1445
01:26:17,055 --> 01:26:17,305
Yeah.

1446
01:26:17,672 --> 01:26:19,072
Cliff: you played yourself, bro.

1447
01:26:19,762 --> 01:26:20,132
Yeah.

1448
01:26:20,382 --> 01:26:24,692
Yeah, to your point, it's another
microcosm of the whole kind of overall

1449
01:26:24,702 --> 01:26:29,812
story of this where it's like, oh, a
thing sort of exists that Marvin Gaye

1450
01:26:30,542 --> 01:26:33,342
has looked at and said, that's a thing.

1451
01:26:33,342 --> 01:26:34,342
And I know how to make it.

1452
01:26:34,702 --> 01:26:37,252
A better version of this
thing that I want it to be.

1453
01:26:37,512 --> 01:26:42,022
And so I'm going to use it and work with
the artist, In either case, whether it's

1454
01:26:42,022 --> 01:26:46,042
the artwork, whether it's Leon Ware,
whether it's the bandmates he worked

1455
01:26:46,042 --> 01:26:50,412
with, like, It wasn't a case of, I know
how to do this better, so I'm gonna

1456
01:26:50,412 --> 01:26:54,292
take what you did, go over here, and now
I've done it, and look at what I did.

1457
01:26:54,542 --> 01:26:59,812
It was always I'm digging what you're
doing, and I'd like to do this.

1458
01:27:00,112 --> 01:27:03,922
I want to ask permission to take
this and then work with you to make a

1459
01:27:03,922 --> 01:27:09,272
version that represents the way I feel
and think and am capable and all of

1460
01:27:09,312 --> 01:27:12,652
Kyle: A lot of one on one makes
three, which I think is fitting

1461
01:27:12,662 --> 01:27:17,072
for sort of the subject matter
celebration he's doing on the record.

1462
01:27:17,336 --> 01:27:17,829
Cliff: yeah.

1463
01:27:17,918 --> 01:27:24,772
And later on then to, put these threads
together too just like this album and its

1464
01:27:24,782 --> 01:27:29,642
music would go on to not only influence
a lot over time, but also continue

1465
01:27:29,642 --> 01:27:35,390
to be, even to this day, a very real,
prescient, influence that people are

1466
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:37,440
sampling, using, covering everything.

1467
01:27:37,780 --> 01:27:41,810
So on top of that being true for
the music, it's also true in its own

1468
01:27:41,820 --> 01:27:43,629
way for the album artwork itself.

1469
01:27:43,919 --> 01:27:48,939
Ernie Barnes, the artist gained
further recognition from art critics

1470
01:27:49,189 --> 01:27:53,519
after this became known as one of
the best black painters of his time.

1471
01:27:53,949 --> 01:27:56,879
Uh, and was called at least
by some people, the Picasso

1472
01:27:56,879 --> 01:27:58,019
of the black art world.

1473
01:27:58,042 --> 01:28:01,402
and then that original piece would
then later be purchased by Eddie

1474
01:28:01,422 --> 01:28:06,172
Kyle: And he made a second version
of it that was used, shown in

1475
01:28:06,172 --> 01:28:08,072
the end credits of Good Times.

1476
01:28:08,686 --> 01:28:11,726
and that was, even if you didn't
listen to Marvin Gaye, it was totally

1477
01:28:11,726 --> 01:28:14,756
iconic in black popular culture.

1478
01:28:15,231 --> 01:28:21,511
In many ways, and that was bought by
a businessman who regularly who lives

1479
01:28:21,511 --> 01:28:26,051
in Texas, I think, and regularly shows
it, especially during Black History

1480
01:28:26,051 --> 01:28:29,921
Month, uh, different universities
and in museums around the way.

1481
01:28:29,921 --> 01:28:35,955
So it's like could not be a more
iconic piece of 20th century Americana.

1482
01:28:36,162 --> 01:28:41,502
In in any conceivable way, but like I
also saw pieces where he was compared

1483
01:28:41,522 --> 01:28:47,552
to the legendary Flemish 16th century
painter, Peter Bruegel, the elder, uh,

1484
01:28:47,562 --> 01:28:53,224
he was compared to Edgar Degas, so like
that you could even invoke, classical

1485
01:28:53,224 --> 01:28:58,354
artists name dropping in the visual
artist tradition, talking about the

1486
01:28:58,514 --> 01:29:03,138
Marvin Gaye record about, you know,
Getting down is like, is amazing.

1487
01:29:03,228 --> 01:29:04,348
It's elevated.

1488
01:29:04,968 --> 01:29:09,781
I think what makes it timeless and
lasting is that it's, elevated.

1489
01:29:09,781 --> 01:29:14,518
It's built to last,  sort of separates
it from a lot of the modern stuff

1490
01:29:14,548 --> 01:29:18,188
about the subject and I don't want
to like sound boomery about it, but

1491
01:29:18,218 --> 01:29:23,465
I think this record will last as, as
long as the earth or the internet do.

1492
01:29:23,953 --> 01:29:26,193
Because they, they went for a cut above

1493
01:29:26,426 --> 01:29:31,073
Cliff: Well, and to reinforce that
idea, though, of it being a different

1494
01:29:31,073 --> 01:29:36,333
time in creating art that were, that
would perpetuate into our future,

1495
01:29:36,963 --> 01:29:42,928
Ernie Barnes, the artist prior to
that, Was an NFL football player.

1496
01:29:43,295 --> 01:29:48,005
Which thanks to CTE and its many wonderful
gifts, we can't expect many of our modern

1497
01:29:48,005 --> 01:29:54,115
NFL players to become lovely, thoughtful,
neo mannerist artists later in their

1498
01:29:54,205 --> 01:29:57,365
Kyle: I'm holding, I'm holding
out for the great Latter day

1499
01:29:57,365 --> 01:30:00,065
works of Travis Kelce, personally.

1500
01:30:00,775 --> 01:30:01,765
Cliff: pfft, pfft, pfft.

1501
01:30:02,132 --> 01:30:03,932
Kyle: I got a song about an octopus

1502
01:30:04,651 --> 01:30:05,571
Cliff: I hate you for that.

1503
01:30:06,151 --> 01:30:10,801
Uh, When Ernie Barnes was talking
about this work, though, I love that

1504
01:30:10,801 --> 01:30:12,181
you pulled this quote out, Kyle.

1505
01:30:12,548 --> 01:30:18,148
this really kind of wraps around and
envelops the spirit of the record,

1506
01:30:18,288 --> 01:30:19,918
even when he talks about the painting.

1507
01:30:20,498 --> 01:30:26,212
Because he said, The painting
transmits rhythm, so the experience

1508
01:30:26,212 --> 01:30:29,232
is recreated in the person viewing it.

1509
01:30:29,832 --> 01:30:33,732
To show that African Americans
utilize rhythm as a way of

1510
01:30:33,732 --> 01:30:36,292
resolving physical tension.

1511
01:30:36,659 --> 01:30:41,036
And what's nice about that is not only,
not only is that a really nice just

1512
01:30:41,046 --> 01:30:47,272
way of looking at it on its face but
this idea of a culture that might be

1513
01:30:47,272 --> 01:30:56,135
different than yours using physicality
as a way to resolve tension is a sort

1514
01:30:56,135 --> 01:31:01,892
of Mental motif, I think that you can
play with when you try to go further

1515
01:31:01,892 --> 01:31:06,782
into this record and understanding not
only what was its sort of intention,

1516
01:31:06,782 --> 01:31:08,232
which we've talked a lot about, right?

1517
01:31:08,232 --> 01:31:09,262
And who was it for?

1518
01:31:09,462 --> 01:31:10,672
And how did it get made?

1519
01:31:11,112 --> 01:31:13,282
But like, what's being done?

1520
01:31:13,817 --> 01:31:16,497
What is happening in the music?

1521
01:31:16,577 --> 01:31:21,897
What was literally being experienced
as it was being produced and what

1522
01:31:21,897 --> 01:31:25,897
was conceptualized as like the
feeling of then later being able

1523
01:31:25,897 --> 01:31:27,997
to listen to it and experience it?

1524
01:31:28,377 --> 01:31:34,337
And I can say Because other people
have wisely said it, uh, and talked

1525
01:31:34,337 --> 01:31:38,047
through it in different interviews
and things like this that this record

1526
01:31:38,047 --> 01:31:44,439
itself represents black eroticism
in a way that not everybody is

1527
01:31:44,719 --> 01:31:50,489
able, willing, or capable of really
internalizing and accepting as just it is.

1528
01:31:50,839 --> 01:31:56,009
A different culture that uses physicality
potentially in a different way than you do

1529
01:31:56,009 --> 01:31:59,986
or that you might be used to or that you
haven't observed before and how that kind

1530
01:31:59,986 --> 01:32:06,211
of Ends up wrapping us up in our own shit
when we're trying to listen or understand

1531
01:32:06,211 --> 01:32:11,142
or experience something different if we
have if we're all caught up in the ways

1532
01:32:11,142 --> 01:32:15,692
that we Deal with things or think about
things or use our bodies or whatever

1533
01:32:15,692 --> 01:32:19,497
else It's our fun too hard for us to
understand what actually might be going

1534
01:32:19,497 --> 01:32:24,712
on for different people in moments like
this And so that idea that the painting

1535
01:32:24,712 --> 01:32:29,862
itself represents that and that you can
step inside of it there But then inside

1536
01:32:29,862 --> 01:32:35,902
of the piece of art that that is the cover
for you can further experience that right

1537
01:32:35,902 --> 01:32:42,582
like literally resolving physical tension
Figuring out how to move your body with

1538
01:32:42,582 --> 01:32:48,292
somebody else in a rhythm in a way that
feels good looks good works for everybody

1539
01:32:48,292 --> 01:32:53,487
like That's its own gift, uh, and it
tends to be its own sort of sporadic

1540
01:32:53,487 --> 01:32:55,507
thing that never repeats itself again.

1541
01:32:55,517 --> 01:32:58,397
Even if you can get something good
going with somebody, you know,

1542
01:32:58,847 --> 01:33:00,297
every time is a little bit unique.

1543
01:33:00,917 --> 01:33:04,509
Kyle: Yeah, I love that you have
started to touch on the, like,

1544
01:33:04,596 --> 01:33:05,788
what do you do if it doesn't?

1545
01:33:05,883 --> 01:33:09,305
resonate with you or it, makes
you feel some type of way.

1546
01:33:09,524 --> 01:33:14,995
you know, for anyone who might not
feel much in common with it, certainly

1547
01:33:14,995 --> 01:33:20,875
right away, Tom Jurek reviewed the
record for all music and, at the

1548
01:33:20,875 --> 01:33:23,532
risk of a pun, painted a picture.

1549
01:33:23,877 --> 01:33:27,307
Of what this record is for
captured it really nicely.

1550
01:33:27,847 --> 01:33:32,317
And he said the subject matter is as close
to explicit as pop records got in 1976.

1551
01:33:32,677 --> 01:33:36,827
The feel of the album was one of late
night parties and basements and small

1552
01:33:36,827 --> 01:33:42,247
clubs and the intimacy of the music evokes
the image of people getting closer as

1553
01:33:42,257 --> 01:33:44,827
every hour of the steamy night wears on.

1554
01:33:45,527 --> 01:33:48,200
One of my wife's and my
favorite records is A.

1555
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:48,560
M.

1556
01:33:48,660 --> 01:33:52,350
by the Arctic Monkeys, which is very
literally a concept record about

1557
01:33:52,360 --> 01:33:56,010
going from the start of the night
through the start of the next morning.

1558
01:33:56,594 --> 01:33:59,584
And this does that in a way that
sort of pushes it out of the

1559
01:33:59,584 --> 01:34:01,234
linear time space continuum.

1560
01:34:01,894 --> 01:34:05,344
He said the most astonishing things
about I Want You are its intimacy,

1561
01:34:05,654 --> 01:34:10,024
silky elegance, silky is a great word
for this record, and seamless textures.

1562
01:34:10,434 --> 01:34:13,814
I Want You and its companion,
Where's Musical Massage, are the

1563
01:34:13,814 --> 01:34:17,754
preeminent early disco concept
albums, which are adult albums about

1564
01:34:17,764 --> 01:34:20,214
intimacy, sensuality, and commitment.

1565
01:34:20,784 --> 01:34:24,324
And decades later they still
reverberate with class, sincerity.

1566
01:34:24,639 --> 01:34:29,119
Grace, intense focus, and
astonishingly good taste.

1567
01:34:29,297 --> 01:34:33,632
So, even if that doesn't mean
something to you, it has meant that

1568
01:34:33,892 --> 01:34:36,352
very deeply to very many people.

1569
01:34:36,982 --> 01:34:43,272
And there's something to be said for
sitting with the feeling of, that's really

1570
01:34:43,272 --> 01:34:46,572
cool that it has the ability to do that.

1571
01:34:46,622 --> 01:34:49,433
And I would like to
hear from those people.

1572
01:34:49,993 --> 01:34:52,003
I would like to know,
like, tell me your stories.

1573
01:34:52,023 --> 01:34:53,583
Tell me what it evokes for you.

1574
01:34:53,993 --> 01:34:57,673
If it doesn't bring a picture or a
feeling to mind for me immediately, I

1575
01:34:57,673 --> 01:34:59,483
want to talk to somebody for whom it does.

1576
01:34:59,850 --> 01:35:04,540
And in that way, like, music
has truly limitless possibility.

1577
01:35:04,831 --> 01:35:09,841
Cliff: I wouldn't want to close out a
conversation without at least mentioning

1578
01:35:10,401 --> 01:35:15,031
some of the biggest highlights of
musical impact from this record,

1579
01:35:15,321 --> 01:35:17,041
including how it still gets used.

1580
01:35:17,451 --> 01:35:17,871
So.

1581
01:35:17,946 --> 01:35:21,116
I want to make sure we touch on some
of that because we've also teased

1582
01:35:21,216 --> 01:35:22,796
some of it out as we've talked.

1583
01:35:23,269 --> 01:35:28,604
but this was one of those moments where
we, we've sort of danced around this idea

1584
01:35:28,604 --> 01:35:33,164
a little bit, but it was one of those
moments where can't say that everyone

1585
01:35:33,164 --> 01:35:36,494
in the studio went there and said,
we're going to make a new thing now.

1586
01:35:36,894 --> 01:35:38,044
Now is a new thing.

1587
01:35:38,414 --> 01:35:41,604
Today, starting today, new
genre, new thing, right?

1588
01:35:41,854 --> 01:35:44,424
And we're going to intentionally
change the way everything else works.

1589
01:35:44,684 --> 01:35:46,334
Even from that quote that you

1590
01:35:46,509 --> 01:35:49,239
Kyle: It's your cousin, Marvin Barry!

1591
01:35:49,606 --> 01:35:53,096
Cliff: But you, uh, the quote you read
mentioned, right, that the feel of the

1592
01:35:53,096 --> 01:35:57,946
album was like One of late night parties
in basements of small clubs like I even

1593
01:35:57,966 --> 01:36:01,906
I joked at the beginning I learned a lot
about party records over the course of

1594
01:36:01,906 --> 01:36:06,766
learning more about this record Which
just for for those of you have never

1595
01:36:06,836 --> 01:36:11,491
heard that before I actually got there
because I'm just gonna be vulnerable

1596
01:36:11,501 --> 01:36:12,851
with everyone on the internet now.

1597
01:36:12,851 --> 01:36:16,838
Here we go I got very curious
after listening to this record,

1598
01:36:17,258 --> 01:36:21,675
um, What is, what is the
history of using moans in music?

1599
01:36:22,115 --> 01:36:22,495
Who,

1600
01:36:22,635 --> 01:36:25,395
Kyle: I hope you search
that in private browsing.

1601
01:36:25,762 --> 01:36:27,712
Cliff: I wasn't born
yesterday, my brother,

1602
01:36:28,402 --> 01:36:28,812
Uh,

1603
01:36:29,057 --> 01:36:30,597
Kyle: is TOR even for?

1604
01:36:30,597 --> 01:36:32,427
Oh

1605
01:36:32,794 --> 01:36:34,934
Cliff: But I got really curious
about it because it was like,

1606
01:36:35,044 --> 01:36:38,524
This, the answer is either gonna
be really stupid or really funny.

1607
01:36:38,809 --> 01:36:39,049
Right?

1608
01:36:39,049 --> 01:36:41,196
There's, whose first idea was this?

1609
01:36:41,576 --> 01:36:45,176
And then I got an answer that I didn't
expect, which was that, actually,

1610
01:36:45,416 --> 01:36:52,556
there was an entire subculture creating
vinyl records that weren't available

1611
01:36:52,566 --> 01:36:54,196
for people to pick up in the store.

1612
01:36:54,196 --> 01:36:56,736
They had to ask for them because
they were hidden behind the counter.

1613
01:36:56,986 --> 01:36:59,466
And they were called party records,
and they were vinyl records

1614
01:36:59,726 --> 01:37:02,547
that were primarily sex noises.

1615
01:37:02,734 --> 01:37:07,404
Which is like, Oh, so you can
probably guess like the next like 30

1616
01:37:07,404 --> 01:37:10,894
minutes of my brain was just like,
Okay, I have a lot of questions.

1617
01:37:10,964 --> 01:37:12,534
I have a lot of questions.

1618
01:37:13,084 --> 01:37:14,854
What do you do when you get one of these?

1619
01:37:14,874 --> 01:37:16,544
What were you doing with this?

1620
01:37:16,754 --> 01:37:18,244
Were you hanging out with people?

1621
01:37:18,794 --> 01:37:22,304
And so I just learned more and more,
uh, and I learned, you know, many

1622
01:37:22,314 --> 01:37:25,454
things that made me slightly culturally
uncomfortable, including the fact

1623
01:37:25,464 --> 01:37:27,894
that a lot of people like to get
together and then listen to those.

1624
01:37:28,232 --> 01:37:32,132
And, uh, I also learned, I'm literally
just going to seed this and move past it,

1625
01:37:32,322 --> 01:37:36,462
but I also learned a hilarious story about
Frank Zappa being tricked into recording

1626
01:37:36,462 --> 01:37:37,862
one of those and then being arrested

1627
01:37:37,887 --> 01:37:38,437
Kyle: my god,

1628
01:37:38,592 --> 01:37:40,272
Cliff: uh, because it
was technically illegal.

1629
01:37:40,927 --> 01:37:41,507
Kyle: but there,

1630
01:37:41,797 --> 01:37:41,997
but

1631
01:37:41,997 --> 01:37:44,257
there's also a whole strain.

1632
01:37:44,862 --> 01:37:46,802
Of comedy in that too.

1633
01:37:46,812 --> 01:37:47,092
Like

1634
01:37:47,372 --> 01:37:51,722
party would also include like
Red Fox, Red Fox's early stuff.

1635
01:37:51,722 --> 01:37:54,072
And they're like, it doesn't
gonna be that kind of party.

1636
01:37:54,072 --> 01:37:56,602
I'm gonna stick my, you know, what
in the mashed potatoes that gets

1637
01:37:56,602 --> 01:38:00,582
sampled by the BC boys and all of
that stuff that I remember the first

1638
01:38:00,582 --> 01:38:04,192
time I heard that sample, I was
like, why was this committed to tape?

1639
01:38:04,355 --> 01:38:08,665
Cliff: to put it extremely concisely,
but more funny, in the same way that

1640
01:38:08,675 --> 01:38:14,405
Dune was a book that no one gave a
shit about, and then a company that

1641
01:38:14,525 --> 01:38:18,635
published car manuals was like, I really
like your story about this Shia Lube

1642
01:38:18,645 --> 01:38:20,895
guy, and then they publish his book.

1643
01:38:21,255 --> 01:38:26,855
In much the same way, basically, comedy
records, and especially black comedy

1644
01:38:26,855 --> 01:38:32,175
records, were effectively published and
popularized by party record record labels.

1645
01:38:32,273 --> 01:38:33,942
Who were like, yeah, we're into this.

1646
01:38:33,988 --> 01:38:34,482
Yeah.

1647
01:38:34,542 --> 01:38:35,352
No, you're funny.

1648
01:38:35,412 --> 01:38:35,632
No.

1649
01:38:35,632 --> 01:38:35,842
Yeah.

1650
01:38:35,842 --> 01:38:37,342
Yeah, we're gonna do this now.

1651
01:38:38,043 --> 01:38:39,983
so there was a whole lot that I learned.

1652
01:38:40,044 --> 01:38:44,762
Kyle: I went to a talk recently
by, uh, professor at Duke we're

1653
01:38:44,762 --> 01:38:49,052
very lucky in Atlanta to have a, a
literal hip hop professor and Dr.

1654
01:38:49,052 --> 01:38:55,442
Joycelyn Wilson, who teaches a sociology,
sort of like current affairs class

1655
01:38:55,842 --> 01:38:57,772
steeped in the language of Southern rap.

1656
01:38:58,421 --> 01:39:02,451
This guy gave a great talk on like
how we got to hip hop before hip hop.

1657
01:39:02,691 --> 01:39:08,321
It was like the 150 year anthropological
history that included, and I wish

1658
01:39:08,321 --> 01:39:09,971
I could remember the party record.

1659
01:39:09,971 --> 01:39:14,041
It was a very specific one, but how
that was like, if you love hip hop,

1660
01:39:14,201 --> 01:39:18,311
this is a, this is an element of
the DNA that is maybe not obvious

1661
01:39:18,311 --> 01:39:21,931
on its face, but in a number of ways
was influential to its development.

1662
01:39:22,330 --> 01:39:27,220
Cliff: Yeah, so there are definitely
interesting offshoots there and plenty

1663
01:39:27,220 --> 01:39:32,667
more to go learn about if you're curious,
but Then thinking about okay There

1664
01:39:32,667 --> 01:39:36,377
was a lot that inspired what happened
on this record So not everything was

1665
01:39:36,417 --> 01:39:40,034
like I said, not everything was just
like a brand new thought, right?

1666
01:39:40,044 --> 01:39:47,187
So the mixture of funk and interludes
and arrangements and ad libbing and

1667
01:39:47,197 --> 01:39:49,477
Moans and all kinds of stuff, right?

1668
01:39:49,947 --> 01:39:51,457
This wasn't all a new idea.

1669
01:39:51,477 --> 01:39:55,897
However, the way that it was put
together, the fact that it was Marvin

1670
01:39:55,897 --> 01:39:59,927
Gaye, the fact that it was Leon Ware,
the fact that it was these musicians,

1671
01:39:59,947 --> 01:40:04,337
the fact that it was put out by Motown,
the fact that it sounds so good, the

1672
01:40:04,337 --> 01:40:06,247
fact that the songs are so great, right?

1673
01:40:06,247 --> 01:40:11,802
Like all of those things created
like Almost every record that we

1674
01:40:11,802 --> 01:40:16,742
ever talk about creates an outsized
downstream effect That's pretty hard

1675
01:40:16,742 --> 01:40:21,512
to trace back unless you actually
know to look for it because monumental

1676
01:40:21,662 --> 01:40:22,912
Kyle: once, you know, you see it.

1677
01:40:23,252 --> 01:40:23,812
Everywhere.

1678
01:40:23,932 --> 01:40:24,272
Cliff: Yep.

1679
01:40:24,722 --> 01:40:30,087
Yep It's impossible to unsee
in that same way, right?

1680
01:40:30,317 --> 01:40:35,297
Let's just go ahead and just
let you not unsee neo souls

1681
01:40:35,537 --> 01:40:37,637
path all the way back into this.

1682
01:40:37,997 --> 01:40:41,407
You know, we mentioned if you like
voodoo, if you like D'Angelo, so

1683
01:40:41,417 --> 01:40:47,587
quarians kind of anything in that range,
you have a direct spiritual secession

1684
01:40:47,917 --> 01:40:50,047
from Marvin Gaye and from this record.

1685
01:40:50,414 --> 01:40:55,824
To the point that, like, one anecdote,
just to really make sure, you know,

1686
01:40:55,824 --> 01:40:57,514
that all these things are tied together.

1687
01:40:58,140 --> 01:41:04,217
after Marvin Gaye died, D'Angelo began
having recurring dreams about Marvin Gaye.

1688
01:41:04,584 --> 01:41:10,799
and eventually, after D'Angelo got signed,
He said he had his final dream about

1689
01:41:10,799 --> 01:41:16,019
Marvin Gaye, and he said, I was following
Marvin as a grown man, and he was a bit

1690
01:41:16,029 --> 01:41:20,049
heavier, and he had a beard, and he was
naked, and all I could see was his back

1691
01:41:20,259 --> 01:41:23,989
and the cap that he used to wear all
the time, and he got into his whirlpool

1692
01:41:23,989 --> 01:41:27,289
jacuzzi with his wife and his daughter
and his little son, and that's when he

1693
01:41:27,289 --> 01:41:31,299
turns around and looks at me, and he
goes, I know you're wondering why you keep

1694
01:41:31,299 --> 01:41:33,369
dreaming about me, and then I woke up.

1695
01:41:33,786 --> 01:41:34,466
Kyle: Makes me.

1696
01:41:34,901 --> 01:41:39,391
Love that episode of Atlanta even
more, where the same thing happens with

1697
01:41:39,391 --> 01:41:42,131
D'Angelo and he's like, I am D'Angelo.

1698
01:41:42,251 --> 01:41:42,931
We are D'Angelo.

1699
01:41:43,298 --> 01:41:46,718
Sometimes I just say it to
myself, we are all D'Angelo.

1700
01:41:47,085 --> 01:41:48,415
And the answer is yes, we are.

1701
01:41:49,095 --> 01:41:49,885
With any luck.

1702
01:41:50,626 --> 01:41:54,366
Cliff: so there is plenty there
and, uh, we don't make any money

1703
01:41:54,366 --> 01:41:57,076
when you go back and listen to
our past podcasts, but you should.

1704
01:41:57,196 --> 01:42:01,237
We really love the voodoo
episode that we did, and so do

1705
01:42:01,237 --> 01:42:01,607
others.

1706
01:42:01,817 --> 01:42:04,217
Kyle: I, simply will not
shut up about that album.

1707
01:42:04,584 --> 01:42:05,374
the album is on.

1708
01:42:05,624 --> 01:42:06,974
Cliff: There's no need to.

1709
01:42:07,091 --> 01:42:10,531
So, there's plenty more
to see in that lineage.

1710
01:42:10,981 --> 01:42:14,908
There's also plenty more to see
through hopefully I don't have to

1711
01:42:15,018 --> 01:42:19,848
stay too much of the obvious of like,
Prince was a pretty sexy dude, okay?

1712
01:42:20,219 --> 01:42:25,629
he knew, he knew how to work whatever
ends of the gender spectrums he wanted

1713
01:42:25,629 --> 01:42:30,329
at any given point, and he is able to
affect all of us, no matter how straight

1714
01:42:30,339 --> 01:42:32,589
we find ourselves to be on the inside.

1715
01:42:33,029 --> 01:42:38,459
And so that, I mean, from Prince, to
Sade, to whoever else, like, learns

1716
01:42:38,459 --> 01:42:46,909
how to channel soul and R& B into
music that is truly legitimately sexy.

1717
01:42:47,409 --> 01:42:53,119
A lot of that stems from exactly this
record, uh, and the way that this got

1718
01:42:53,129 --> 01:42:58,679
approached, even down to the genre that
became known as Quiet Storm, which is

1719
01:42:58,759 --> 01:43:04,963
really just sort of like a way of thinking
about how casual this album felt and

1720
01:43:04,963 --> 01:43:09,443
how if you, you know, maybe tamp down
the subject matter intensity a little

1721
01:43:09,443 --> 01:43:12,090
bit, you just end up with something very

1722
01:43:12,265 --> 01:43:15,685
Kyle: Lo lo fi beats to do
something other than study to.

1723
01:43:16,178 --> 01:43:20,898
There's also a, I shared with you, like
right before we started recording the

1724
01:43:20,898 --> 01:43:26,601
Madonna and Massive Attack cover of the
title track, which is like, I wouldn't

1725
01:43:26,601 --> 01:43:31,555
have thought about Portishead or Bjork
or Massive Attack being inherently

1726
01:43:31,555 --> 01:43:33,945
connected, but like, of course they are.

1727
01:43:33,945 --> 01:43:36,955
They're Quiet Storm in their own way.

1728
01:43:37,314 --> 01:43:43,984
People, everyone from Madonna to Todd
Rundgren to EPMD saying that they're

1729
01:43:43,994 --> 01:43:49,604
influenced by or reinterpolating
something of Marvin's is like the same

1730
01:43:49,604 --> 01:43:54,514
way that Bitches Brew said we want to
do, Miles Davis said we want to do rock

1731
01:43:54,974 --> 01:44:00,242
and out came this like cosmic goo that
was an entirely different thing and

1732
01:44:00,400 --> 01:44:02,240
changed the way rock sounded forever.

1733
01:44:02,360 --> 01:44:06,491
You see those strains mutating
out from this record in a

1734
01:44:06,491 --> 01:44:07,531
bunch of different directions.

1735
01:44:07,541 --> 01:44:11,541
So when you, when you see that feel
popping up in something that may not

1736
01:44:11,541 --> 01:44:18,595
sound like I want you, there's probably
a couple of degrees back of influence

1737
01:44:18,655 --> 01:44:22,195
where even if they're not trying to
sound like it, they're trying to feel

1738
01:44:22,205 --> 01:44:24,968
like it, this record such potent.

1739
01:44:25,284 --> 01:44:29,924
Unabated feel that I think it's
anybody who's ever wanted to make a

1740
01:44:29,924 --> 01:44:32,994
record aspires to that in some way.

1741
01:44:33,297 --> 01:44:33,807
Cliff: Totally.

1742
01:44:33,927 --> 01:44:35,157
I'm glad you mentioned that one.

1743
01:44:35,197 --> 01:44:40,745
I was going to say that the two, I
think, modern interpolations that

1744
01:44:40,745 --> 01:44:45,855
are worth really spinning up quickly
are, like you said, the Madonna cover

1745
01:44:45,855 --> 01:44:51,170
that features Massive Attack, which
is really cool, but is concretely In

1746
01:44:51,170 --> 01:44:53,420
the exact moment in history that it

1747
01:44:53,420 --> 01:44:54,200
was made, right?

1748
01:44:54,210 --> 01:44:57,220
It feels extremely that year.

1749
01:44:57,760 --> 01:45:02,067
In the same way, so that you can kind
of see the timelessness of I Want You.

1750
01:45:02,434 --> 01:45:08,913
Same song but Kendrick Lamar's The
Heart Part 5, that is I Want You.

1751
01:45:09,565 --> 01:45:11,465
ends the whole song.

1752
01:45:11,624 --> 01:45:17,804
By saying that like it is about this
song and about Marvin Gaye and about

1753
01:45:17,804 --> 01:45:22,394
what all of this meant and then Kendrick
is pulling it into, you know, I think

1754
01:45:22,404 --> 01:45:27,814
2022 was when, when he dropped that
last one my, he is just pulling all of

1755
01:45:27,814 --> 01:45:33,814
that into raw modern hip hop and, you
know, in case, in case the heart part

1756
01:45:33,814 --> 01:45:38,749
five hasn't reminded you, or you're
not a big, um, Kindra Kat, I guess.

1757
01:45:38,799 --> 01:45:43,349
That's the video with all the
deepfake faces, uh, that came

1758
01:45:43,349 --> 01:45:47,559
out, which, fun fact Matt and Trey
from South Park made that video.

1759
01:45:47,926 --> 01:45:48,296
Uh,

1760
01:45:48,836 --> 01:45:49,196
right?

1761
01:45:49,563 --> 01:45:54,495
but that is a totally different
interpolation, right, of the song, of

1762
01:45:54,495 --> 01:45:59,405
this idea, than the Madonna version was,
or than the originals, or any of the

1763
01:45:59,415 --> 01:46:04,525
countless hip hop and otherwise songs that
have sampled different portions of Marvin

1764
01:46:04,525 --> 01:46:07,335
Gaye, this album or that song in general.

1765
01:46:07,655 --> 01:46:12,595
But both of those are really good ways
of just seeing so clearly that If you put

1766
01:46:12,595 --> 01:46:16,195
this record on for somebody and didn't
tell them what it was, You wouldn't have

1767
01:46:16,195 --> 01:46:21,185
a hard time convincing them that it came
out like this year that it's a brand new

1768
01:46:21,185 --> 01:46:22,915
record It sounds good.

1769
01:46:22,915 --> 01:46:23,885
It feels good.

1770
01:46:24,095 --> 01:46:31,455
It works and the nostalgia aspect of
hearing something like this will just make

1771
01:46:31,455 --> 01:46:36,708
you realize that things like Silksonic are
just lifting things pretty directly from

1772
01:46:36,708 --> 01:46:38,428
the past and putting them into the future.

1773
01:46:38,558 --> 01:46:45,458
Kyle: the feel of a Victoria
Monet or any era of Beyonce ever.

1774
01:46:45,678 --> 01:46:47,615
You know, there's so much.

1775
01:46:47,645 --> 01:46:48,775
Anything that.

1776
01:46:49,142 --> 01:46:53,492
moves you and doesn't feel
algorithmic or designed for a diet

1777
01:46:53,492 --> 01:46:55,701
Coke commercial compressed to hell.

1778
01:46:55,848 --> 01:46:57,688
there, there are certainly
strains of that here.

1779
01:46:58,268 --> 01:47:04,397
So, you know, if you listen and it does
move you, I guess the essential question.

1780
01:47:04,511 --> 01:47:07,811
If it moves you or it doesn't
yet, but you want it to, you

1781
01:47:07,811 --> 01:47:09,141
feel the strains of something.

1782
01:47:09,701 --> 01:47:11,921
You know, the essential question
is where do we go from here?

1783
01:47:11,971 --> 01:47:14,961
What do I do with that feeling cliff?

1784
01:47:15,152 --> 01:47:20,803
Let me just lay down on this couch and
please tell me as a therapy joke, that

1785
01:47:20,803 --> 01:47:22,293
was not another drinking game moment.

1786
01:47:22,660 --> 01:47:23,380
Cliff: Why not both?

1787
01:47:23,747 --> 01:47:24,307
I think.

1788
01:47:24,659 --> 01:47:25,479
I got him on that one.

1789
01:47:25,479 --> 01:47:25,959
That was good.

1790
01:47:26,326 --> 01:47:30,606
Kyle: I just, I wanted to immediately
segue to Say something about yes

1791
01:47:30,786 --> 01:47:33,186
and, and then a joke about how
you definitely shouldn't take

1792
01:47:33,186 --> 01:47:34,626
home a person who does improv.

1793
01:47:34,993 --> 01:47:36,844
Um, but I, I couldn't make the connection.

1794
01:47:37,032 --> 01:47:37,512
Cliff: that's okay.

1795
01:47:37,512 --> 01:47:40,862
Earlier when you said this reminded
you of Dope Smoker, my brain said

1796
01:47:40,872 --> 01:47:42,612
drop out of life with dong in hand.

1797
01:47:42,772 --> 01:47:44,079
So you're welcome.

1798
01:47:44,169 --> 01:47:47,339
Kyle: when we, when we quit our corporate
jobs, we're just going to start an Etsy

1799
01:47:47,349 --> 01:47:52,273
store that makes incredibly niche bumper
stickers with nothing to put them on.

1800
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:53,450
Cliff: I may start now.

1801
01:47:54,031 --> 01:47:59,403
So, one of the reasons I think your
question is really cool here and

1802
01:47:59,433 --> 01:48:03,436
I've hinted at this a little bit,
but like, I'm not a person who wakes

1803
01:48:03,436 --> 01:48:08,726
up in the morning and is inherently
ready to listen to the sexiest music.

1804
01:48:08,993 --> 01:48:14,993
it just isn't the way that I
feel, especially with how music

1805
01:48:15,033 --> 01:48:17,433
tends to interpret sensuality.

1806
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:19,540
I just aligned to it a
little bit differently.

1807
01:48:19,608 --> 01:48:23,168
So I think though that exercise and
what you're asking me, like, what

1808
01:48:23,168 --> 01:48:26,778
do you kind of do with what you're
feeling in this record is a really

1809
01:48:26,788 --> 01:48:31,888
important part of like why we feel
like this podcast matters and how we

1810
01:48:31,888 --> 01:48:33,408
can help other people to experience.

1811
01:48:33,521 --> 01:48:36,971
Other aspects of their life that they
may not know that they can be open to

1812
01:48:36,971 --> 01:48:43,931
yet because this record if you put your
heart into it Will give you a lot of

1813
01:48:43,931 --> 01:48:49,515
feelings and a lot of those feelings for
someone like me are sort of I wouldn't

1814
01:48:49,515 --> 01:48:55,182
say Unwelcome, but they're a little
hard to parse I'm like, okay, okay, I'm

1815
01:48:55,182 --> 01:49:00,662
not sure if I'm turned on or if you're
turned on, and I'm just listening to you.

1816
01:49:00,682 --> 01:49:02,952
I'm like, okay, but let
me think through it.

1817
01:49:03,382 --> 01:49:07,502
So, re contextualizing it, I know we've
talked about it a number of times, but

1818
01:49:07,502 --> 01:49:14,662
like, these are Songs that Marvin Gaye
channeled mostly written by other people

1819
01:49:15,029 --> 01:49:18,899
who were directing their own energy
at whatever those songs were, which he

1820
01:49:18,899 --> 01:49:25,966
then took and redirected back towards
a very particular person, his lover,

1821
01:49:26,066 --> 01:49:33,383
like the person he was making this music
for and focused on, um, and it is it.

1822
01:49:33,758 --> 01:49:38,878
Reflective to the degree that, for all
the things that Janice Hunter would

1823
01:49:38,878 --> 01:49:45,568
go on to say about their relationship,
about their story, about Marvin's songs,

1824
01:49:45,568 --> 01:49:49,938
like everything, at the very least
what we know is she said the songs

1825
01:49:50,228 --> 01:49:52,728
were reflective of their relationship.

1826
01:49:53,095 --> 01:49:58,275
That it seemed to capture a thing that was
real for them in that particular moment.

1827
01:49:58,665 --> 01:50:05,130
And so, for me, one of the things I can
do with How I Feel, Is practice holding

1828
01:50:05,130 --> 01:50:10,857
space for the time and space of the
sensuality and sexuality of two other

1829
01:50:10,857 --> 01:50:17,237
people who at that time were again, we're
going to move forward with the assumption

1830
01:50:17,237 --> 01:50:20,567
that we're talking about two consenting
adults at this particular point.

1831
01:50:20,937 --> 01:50:24,797
Okay, but these are two people
who really wanted each other.

1832
01:50:24,972 --> 01:50:29,552
And one person who was flat out
fucking famous who needed to write

1833
01:50:29,592 --> 01:50:35,222
a Muse record about somebody, even
though he had absolutely no need to

1834
01:50:35,232 --> 01:50:39,612
come back to commercial records and
had otherwise sworn him off, right?

1835
01:50:39,979 --> 01:50:45,146
So for better or worse and without
judgment, Whatever this was created enough

1836
01:50:45,146 --> 01:50:51,046
motion in this human being to go out and
find a way to create another record using

1837
01:50:51,156 --> 01:50:56,216
other people to try to get the feeling
and the vibe that he wanted to express

1838
01:50:56,566 --> 01:50:58,486
and truly present to another person.

1839
01:50:58,853 --> 01:51:01,878
That helps me to hold
space for other people.

1840
01:51:02,218 --> 01:51:05,488
And by extension for, you know,
like we talked about a little

1841
01:51:05,488 --> 01:51:08,508
bit with the painting and, and
understanding how different people

1842
01:51:08,508 --> 01:51:10,248
and cultures like use their bodies.

1843
01:51:10,718 --> 01:51:15,543
It helps me to leave space for people
in a way that honestly feels good to me.

1844
01:51:15,622 --> 01:51:19,812
Like actually, I don't need to figure out
whether that made sense for them or not.

1845
01:51:20,129 --> 01:51:21,689
This is what the record is about.

1846
01:51:22,319 --> 01:51:26,989
I know what it feels like to have
my version of what they were doing.

1847
01:51:27,087 --> 01:51:31,042
and, you know, my versions
of that may have been, my, my

1848
01:51:31,042 --> 01:51:33,482
muse is closer to my age, okay?

1849
01:51:33,832 --> 01:51:39,112
Uh, and the times where I had this
intensity of feeling, I didn't have

1850
01:51:39,112 --> 01:51:42,672
the artistry in me to convey it.

1851
01:51:43,152 --> 01:51:47,592
I was not a, 36 or whatever year old
person like Marvin Gaye was when he was

1852
01:51:47,592 --> 01:51:49,142
trying to figure out how to do this.

1853
01:51:49,509 --> 01:51:54,589
But I am now, and so being able to
listen to this and figure out, like, it

1854
01:51:54,589 --> 01:51:56,479
really, it sparked a little bit in me.

1855
01:51:56,479 --> 01:52:02,779
Like, if you had had the capacity to
write something about this when you

1856
01:52:02,779 --> 01:52:08,069
were 19 or 20, what would that have
been and what would that have felt like?

1857
01:52:08,099 --> 01:52:09,549
What have that sounded like?

1858
01:52:10,199 --> 01:52:11,239
How would that have worked?

1859
01:52:11,299 --> 01:52:14,609
Would it have connected with
anybody, including the other person?

1860
01:52:15,338 --> 01:52:18,174
you know, those are a lot of questions
I don't have very pretty answers

1861
01:52:18,174 --> 01:52:24,033
to, but it, Puts me into the music
in a different way by being able to

1862
01:52:24,113 --> 01:52:29,170
understand enough of what was happening
and then find a way to just allow it.

1863
01:52:29,715 --> 01:52:30,475
It existed.

1864
01:52:30,725 --> 01:52:33,635
It's something I can know about,
and here's this document of what it

1865
01:52:33,635 --> 01:52:35,315
felt like for at least two people.

1866
01:52:35,968 --> 01:52:42,920
and the ability to listen in and
observe without, I mean, you're sort

1867
01:52:42,920 --> 01:52:46,180
of listening and observing into an
intimate moment that you otherwise are

1868
01:52:46,180 --> 01:52:50,905
not really permitted to be a part of,
and here somebody's letting you into it.

1869
01:52:51,272 --> 01:52:52,272
it opens me up.

1870
01:52:52,322 --> 01:52:54,182
It opens me up to different expressions.

1871
01:52:54,262 --> 01:52:58,259
It opens me up to being more flexible
to like, remember that whatever shit

1872
01:52:58,269 --> 01:53:01,909
somebody says in that situation is
probably not the smoothest thing.

1873
01:53:01,909 --> 01:53:05,119
I have to remember that Marvin Gaye
outlived all this stuff himself.

1874
01:53:05,449 --> 01:53:08,949
And not all of it is
just pristinely worded.

1875
01:53:09,369 --> 01:53:13,109
Some of it's just him jibjabbering
back towards somebody else and saying

1876
01:53:13,119 --> 01:53:15,399
literally what his body wants right then.

1877
01:53:15,766 --> 01:53:19,621
And like, That's still Marvin Gaye,
and he still did it with vocal control.

1878
01:53:19,681 --> 01:53:22,301
He still did it with excellence, on
top of the band, on an incredible

1879
01:53:22,301 --> 01:53:25,091
record that went on to inspire a
lot of other people and things.

1880
01:53:25,442 --> 01:53:29,192
one of the things it did was it really
surprised me for the space that I found

1881
01:53:29,192 --> 01:53:31,532
out I could leave and accommodate.

1882
01:53:32,142 --> 01:53:36,662
For other things and other people's
experiences that are intimate, um,

1883
01:53:37,382 --> 01:53:42,122
that don't have anything to do with me,
but that I can see myself in because

1884
01:53:42,122 --> 01:53:43,452
I had my own version of it, you know,

1885
01:53:43,837 --> 01:53:48,894
Kyle: Yeah, I have always struggled with
that phrase, holding space, being like

1886
01:53:48,894 --> 01:53:55,423
one of those internet charged phrases
and not really knowing what it means to

1887
01:53:55,423 --> 01:54:00,372
me personally, but I like the way you
framed it, you know, every time somebody

1888
01:54:00,463 --> 01:54:04,573
tries to give some part of themselves to
you or to the world at large because they

1889
01:54:04,573 --> 01:54:08,550
don't know who specifically to give it
to or both, is an opportunity for you in

1890
01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:11,700
turn to turn toward or turn away from it.

1891
01:54:11,790 --> 01:54:14,907
And, you know, there's that
psychological study that gets talked

1892
01:54:14,977 --> 01:54:18,357
about a lot in couples counseling
that the one true predictor of

1893
01:54:18,357 --> 01:54:22,567
the longevity of a relationship is
when given a cue by their partner.

1894
01:54:22,721 --> 01:54:25,931
The ones who succeed in a relationship
most often are the ones who consistently

1895
01:54:25,931 --> 01:54:31,921
turn toward and acknowledge and
reciprocate in some way that expression

1896
01:54:32,011 --> 01:54:37,477
of love or pain or feeling or whatever,
that has so affected the way that

1897
01:54:37,477 --> 01:54:42,317
I think about my life and music has
helped me do that because like I was.

1898
01:54:42,740 --> 01:54:45,350
So I am very judgy young person.

1899
01:54:45,360 --> 01:54:45,990
That sucks.

1900
01:54:45,990 --> 01:54:46,590
I hate that.

1901
01:54:46,600 --> 01:54:47,470
That's not as good.

1902
01:54:47,470 --> 01:54:49,160
This thing's better than this other thing.

1903
01:54:49,180 --> 01:54:53,300
Things need a hierarchy and a rank order
and a what, you know, just like typical

1904
01:54:53,950 --> 01:54:56,500
white guy, teenager blogger bullshit.

1905
01:54:56,867 --> 01:55:03,227
Moving away from that into a nonjudgmental
place and especially not, not just

1906
01:55:03,267 --> 01:55:08,427
additionally, but especially when
it's challenging, when the person

1907
01:55:08,447 --> 01:55:13,375
and the art have a gap in the things
they're making me feel it's better.

1908
01:55:13,655 --> 01:55:18,752
When it's additive and I can sit with that
tension between those two things and be

1909
01:55:18,752 --> 01:55:23,492
grateful for the things that they've given
me and try to embrace them for all that.

1910
01:55:23,522 --> 01:55:26,992
I mean, like with the obvious,
like crazy criminal things aside,

1911
01:55:27,022 --> 01:55:30,972
some of the examples we've cited
earlier like everybody sucks.

1912
01:55:31,062 --> 01:55:31,772
You know what I mean?

1913
01:55:31,792 --> 01:55:33,752
Like I, me most of all.

1914
01:55:34,257 --> 01:55:37,477
and I would just hope that the things
that I try to express and put in the

1915
01:55:37,477 --> 01:55:40,454
world, Additive for other people.

1916
01:55:40,564 --> 01:55:44,534
So I try to practice that kind of
golden rule y type of thing as well.

1917
01:55:45,058 --> 01:55:46,498
and it's good when it's challenging.

1918
01:55:46,498 --> 01:55:52,862
And I find that trying to get more
value out of people and things and

1919
01:55:52,862 --> 01:55:57,642
tastes and experiences and sensations
has made me more at peace with myself.

1920
01:55:57,762 --> 01:55:59,942
Like being nonjudgmental has.

1921
01:56:00,309 --> 01:56:02,639
I don't want to say made me a
better person because I don't,

1922
01:56:02,649 --> 01:56:03,639
what does that even mean?

1923
01:56:03,639 --> 01:56:09,049
But like certainly has made me
love myself Better and I think

1924
01:56:09,049 --> 01:56:12,639
that anytime we like reach out
lash out at something in judgment.

1925
01:56:12,649 --> 01:56:17,295
It's just we don't love ourselves enough
I don't love myself enough, whatever So

1926
01:56:17,295 --> 01:56:21,825
that's why I love things like this like if
it doesn't speak to you immediately maybe

1927
01:56:21,825 --> 01:56:27,759
it's just not for you And the best moments
in those situations are when you're like,

1928
01:56:27,889 --> 01:56:30,064
but maybe I want it to be I don't know.

1929
01:56:30,064 --> 01:56:33,994
There's something there like,
ah, this record is a lot.

1930
01:56:34,144 --> 01:56:38,564
Oh, I don't know if I should be listening
to this, but like, I'm really drawn to it.

1931
01:56:38,594 --> 01:56:42,254
And just finding your way to a
relationship with the thing and the

1932
01:56:42,254 --> 01:56:47,474
person and the other people who are
drawn to it and the stories around

1933
01:56:47,474 --> 01:56:50,494
it and what it can compel you to
do in your own life experience.

1934
01:56:50,494 --> 01:56:57,640
And just The messiness of all of that is
like the singular thing that makes the

1935
01:56:57,640 --> 01:57:03,580
shit show of life worth continuing on in
the older we get and the harder it gets

1936
01:57:03,590 --> 01:57:07,710
and the more complicated it gets, you
know, everything gets parsed into ones

1937
01:57:07,710 --> 01:57:11,990
and zeros, literally and spiritually in
the digital world, but like out in the

1938
01:57:11,990 --> 01:57:16,007
real world where we can, in the spirit
of this record, touch each other, right?

1939
01:57:16,427 --> 01:57:18,017
Like, be physically close.

1940
01:57:18,186 --> 01:57:19,816
Everything lives in the messy middle.

1941
01:57:19,846 --> 01:57:21,136
All the good shit.

1942
01:57:21,146 --> 01:57:22,146
Nothing's perfect.

1943
01:57:22,626 --> 01:57:23,336
But it's good.

1944
01:57:23,366 --> 01:57:23,986
It's there.

1945
01:57:23,996 --> 01:57:24,696
It's real.

1946
01:57:25,026 --> 01:57:25,806
You can feel it.

1947
01:57:26,184 --> 01:57:29,724
that's sort of like the
takeaway spirit for me.

1948
01:57:30,112 --> 01:57:34,896
Cliff: I think that's extra important
in all capital letters, these

1949
01:57:34,896 --> 01:57:37,866
modern times with the internet, just

1950
01:57:37,896 --> 01:57:38,746
Kyle: era vulgaris.

1951
01:57:39,113 --> 01:57:45,170
Cliff: yeah, well, so much of what we
have now rewards us and incentivizes us.

1952
01:57:45,343 --> 01:57:49,380
To take those moments of
experiencing something either

1953
01:57:49,380 --> 01:57:51,230
different or just not for you.

1954
01:57:51,337 --> 01:57:55,501
And rewards our snap judgments and dunks.

1955
01:57:55,505 --> 01:57:55,854
Right?

1956
01:57:55,864 --> 01:57:59,948
The ability to quote
tweet and ratio a thing.

1957
01:58:00,315 --> 01:58:06,535
Is not only easy, but is, has become the
way that a lot of our things are designed.

1958
01:58:06,825 --> 01:58:11,245
It is the engagement machine that
keeps us talking to each other about

1959
01:58:11,255 --> 01:58:13,435
nothing so that we can see more ads.

1960
01:58:13,945 --> 01:58:17,139
And like, we all do some of that, okay?

1961
01:58:17,189 --> 01:58:19,089
And some things are fun to dunk on.

1962
01:58:19,199 --> 01:58:22,099
Okay, we dunked on Drake like
four times in this episode.

1963
01:58:22,319 --> 01:58:22,879
It's easy.

1964
01:58:23,259 --> 01:58:23,859
So that's fine.

1965
01:58:24,226 --> 01:58:24,626
That's right.

1966
01:58:25,166 --> 01:58:27,006
I'm the Michael Jordan
of dunking on Drake.

1967
01:58:27,406 --> 01:58:27,966
This is great.

1968
01:58:28,343 --> 01:58:31,409
but, you want to monitor that in yourself.

1969
01:58:31,469 --> 01:58:35,409
And you want to think about that
really carefully, because if you

1970
01:58:35,409 --> 01:58:39,669
look at the whole collection of
things that are out there, the vast

1971
01:58:39,669 --> 01:58:41,549
majority of them are not for you.

1972
01:58:41,916 --> 01:58:43,246
They're not for you.

1973
01:58:43,376 --> 01:58:44,426
They're for someone else.

1974
01:58:44,446 --> 01:58:45,686
They're for some other group,

1975
01:58:46,266 --> 01:58:49,696
Kyle: That vast majority, by
the way, does not mean 75%.

1976
01:58:49,726 --> 01:58:54,216
It means like nine, nine point
nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine.

1977
01:58:54,676 --> 01:58:57,246
Even if it sort of feels like
it might be for you or you want

1978
01:58:57,246 --> 01:58:59,686
it to be, it's not, it's for,

1979
01:59:00,056 --> 01:59:01,976
it's for that person or that group.

1980
01:59:02,196 --> 01:59:02,786
Make your own

1981
01:59:03,112 --> 01:59:05,932
Cliff: But we feel sad, and we don't
know what to do with it, so we look for

1982
01:59:05,932 --> 01:59:12,232
dopamine hits, and the dopamine hits come
from really easily, harshly judging shit,

1983
01:59:12,332 --> 01:59:16,512
and putting it on the internet, and then
letting people like our harsh judgment of

1984
01:59:16,512 --> 01:59:20,972
all that shit that we put on the internet,
and all we're really doing It's training

1985
01:59:20,972 --> 01:59:24,652
our body to respond to something negative,
and then we take that feeling and then

1986
01:59:24,652 --> 01:59:29,652
we pipe it into judgment and bullshit
at other people and at their expense.

1987
01:59:30,032 --> 01:59:33,622
And I think a thing that you will
agree with me on, because we talk about

1988
01:59:33,622 --> 01:59:36,512
it so much, is like that's the trap.

1989
01:59:36,879 --> 01:59:38,179
That's the trap man.

1990
01:59:38,536 --> 01:59:42,696
it's fun to do it a little bit and
everyone has a bit of an edge on it But if

1991
01:59:42,696 --> 01:59:47,216
you spend most of your time thinking about
how other people are doing shit that they

1992
01:59:47,226 --> 01:59:51,975
shouldn't be doing Or how things aren't
the way that they should be for you You

1993
01:59:51,975 --> 01:59:57,325
will turn into a literal curmudgeon You
will create a little cycle in yourself

1994
01:59:57,545 --> 02:00:02,490
where all you're doing is judging things
and Calling them names because they

1995
02:00:02,490 --> 02:00:04,170
don't make sense to you immediately.

1996
02:00:04,410 --> 02:00:07,590
And the more you do that, the
worse you get at identifying

1997
02:00:07,600 --> 02:00:09,060
things that can be for you.

1998
02:00:09,427 --> 02:00:13,147
Because now everything's got to fit this
pristine little box that you had in your

1999
02:00:13,147 --> 02:00:15,787
brain to begin with and that's the trap.

2000
02:00:16,197 --> 02:00:21,237
And so to be able to take a
record like this and both have the

2001
02:00:21,237 --> 02:00:25,937
experience of okay, I can approach
this sort of historically and almost

2002
02:00:25,947 --> 02:00:28,607
amorally and consume it that way.

2003
02:00:28,817 --> 02:00:33,854
But then on the other hand like we've
talked about I mean, the first time I

2004
02:00:33,904 --> 02:00:39,791
listened intently to tracks with moans
on it, I wanted to respond to it, right?

2005
02:00:39,791 --> 02:00:44,551
I wanted to I wanted to say something
like, This cheapens it, or, That really

2006
02:00:44,551 --> 02:00:49,300
dates it, or, you know, Think about what
this song could have been without these.

2007
02:00:49,670 --> 02:00:50,030
Right.

2008
02:00:50,320 --> 02:00:54,530
And it, and it was this really
quick response, almost reactive.

2009
02:00:54,996 --> 02:00:57,876
I feel like one of the things that
we have truly blessed ourselves

2010
02:00:57,876 --> 02:01:01,303
with and that other people can bless
themselves with, learning to let

2011
02:01:01,313 --> 02:01:06,353
that exist as a thought, just like
anything else, and then let it go.

2012
02:01:07,003 --> 02:01:10,813
You actually don't need to label
everything that you don't understand

2013
02:01:10,823 --> 02:01:15,403
or see or even that your body
responds to in one way or the other.

2014
02:01:15,673 --> 02:01:19,293
In fact, if your body responds
negatively to something, it might be

2015
02:01:19,293 --> 02:01:23,703
a good moment to take a second and
examine it and figure out whether

2016
02:01:23,703 --> 02:01:27,713
that's actually an ick that you'd like
to stick around or whether that's some

2017
02:01:27,713 --> 02:01:30,943
bullshit that's contributing to a bad
part of your personality, you know?

2018
02:01:31,310 --> 02:01:31,860
Kyle: touch your nose.

2019
02:01:31,860 --> 02:01:35,460
If you can tell somebody on this
podcast has been to therapy, just,

2020
02:01:35,827 --> 02:01:38,557
Cliff: All I know to get better is to
talk to people and to listen to music

2021
02:01:38,557 --> 02:01:41,307
better So yeah, those are the
two things that I know to do.

2022
02:01:41,312 --> 02:01:44,982
Kyle: So what you're saying, Cliff,
is that Marvin would want us to

2023
02:01:45,002 --> 02:01:47,942
get out of the doom loop and get
in the pit and try to love someone?

2024
02:01:48,309 --> 02:01:49,429
That's where life happens.

2025
02:01:49,796 --> 02:01:51,596
Cliff: He might give us a
little bit of drugs to do it

2026
02:01:51,841 --> 02:01:52,941
Kyle: A little bit.

2027
02:01:53,308 --> 02:01:54,018
Just a toot.

2028
02:01:54,297 --> 02:01:56,337
You know, it's so funny.

2029
02:01:56,918 --> 02:01:58,978
Your take didn't even occur to me.

2030
02:01:58,988 --> 02:02:05,276
Like, the wavelength of, judgment were
Cringe or whatever, you know, I was like,

2031
02:02:05,394 --> 02:02:08,304
the vibe was immediately apparent to me.

2032
02:02:08,354 --> 02:02:09,264
Like this feels good.

2033
02:02:09,314 --> 02:02:11,244
I'm like, I'm, I'm wired for pleasure.

2034
02:02:11,834 --> 02:02:13,144
I'm a creature wired for pleasure.

2035
02:02:13,144 --> 02:02:15,054
So like, of course this feels good.

2036
02:02:15,054 --> 02:02:17,474
It's just like I, the
wavelength hit me immediately.

2037
02:02:18,003 --> 02:02:21,311
it did not even occur to
me that someone could feel.

2038
02:02:21,816 --> 02:02:26,786
The way that you have at least
acknowledged or observed, right, whether

2039
02:02:26,786 --> 02:02:28,376
or not you yourself feel that way.

2040
02:02:28,796 --> 02:02:34,533
So I, I appreciate just within
thinking about the kind of record.

2041
02:02:34,533 --> 02:02:37,173
This is not necessarily
this specific record itself.

2042
02:02:37,573 --> 02:02:41,250
Like, I appreciate this, the
spectrum there and sort of like the

2043
02:02:41,250 --> 02:02:45,316
rich tapestry of humanity just in
that, What I think is undeniable,

2044
02:02:45,316 --> 02:02:49,146
though, is the mastery on display.

2045
02:02:49,686 --> 02:02:55,196
For what this is, it is the best
version of what this thing is.

2046
02:02:55,806 --> 02:02:58,296
And in that way, I think
it makes it transcendent.

2047
02:02:58,436 --> 02:03:01,765
It is a feeling distilled into.

2048
02:03:02,038 --> 02:03:07,088
It's sonic essence, you know, where,
where words fail, music speaks, it's

2049
02:03:07,088 --> 02:03:12,747
that old saying epitomized and, it's
like the highest order function of

2050
02:03:12,747 --> 02:03:18,440
music in our lives and the, the reason
for my money that we feel compelled

2051
02:03:19,150 --> 02:03:25,404
against all logic to keep making it from
all, all recorded past into infinity.

2052
02:03:25,771 --> 02:03:26,701
Cliff: Go to tundig.

2053
02:03:26,741 --> 02:03:30,791
com for more information about this
episode and the album we just covered,

2054
02:03:30,821 --> 02:03:35,251
including a full transcript and
links to other interesting facts.

2055
02:03:35,251 --> 02:03:39,211
Follow us on Instagram and Twitter
for even more information about

2056
02:03:39,231 --> 02:03:40,851
the album and go to tundig.

2057
02:03:41,531 --> 02:03:48,321
com slash calendar to learn more
about the 366 day album calendar

2058
02:03:48,331 --> 02:03:51,481
that we put together that a lot of
people are listening to together.

2059
02:03:51,771 --> 02:03:54,581
Kyle: Most importantly, by far
though, please support your favorite

2060
02:03:54,581 --> 02:04:00,361
local record store, concert venue
and, or especially bands by buying

2061
02:04:00,371 --> 02:04:01,961
merch, thanks for listening.